Why,should This Be Possible?

Hunty · November 2003

Okay first,lets take a loot at gorgs.For 10 res,you get the alien's equiavelent to a shotgunner(5 hits with gorg spit kills a marine.THATS how powerful it is),a free healing spray that incidentally can heal 3 marines of non-upgraded firing on an OC and can build stuff.

ns_nothing.8 vs 8,the so-called "balanced" number.Pub game,with nice mixture of vets and newbies(FOR ONCE!!!!!)in both teams.

Due to people sitting in rr,half of each team joined a bit late.At least 30 seconds from game start.

IP,Armor,TF,3 turrets.All that done,i give out a shotgun and we move to miasma.We get an rt to miasma...its about 1 minute 15 seconds by then...i happen to glance at the rt count.

It was 1 vs 5.(Flayra,please,PLEASE!!!!! fix this unstoppable early RT rush.PLEASE!!!)

We moved to gen,i tell the marines we will need to go down and kill their rts to prevent 10 minute onos.We hear gorg sounds in gen.They move in....

3 ocs,3-4 gorgs healing,and a bunch of skulks decimate the entire marine squad in 10 seconds.

Firstly let me ask you...why should aliens be able to get 4 rts,3 ocs AND be able to support skulks with free healing and a 30 damage spit that kills a marine in 5 hits,in little over a minute?

Secondly,why should OCs be completely unkillable in early game,if 1-2 gorgs are healing them?No seriously,TRY THIS,get a OC,get a gorg behind it and get 2-3 marines to shoot at the OC(we are NOT talking about synchronized fire,as this is impossible in pubs).Gorg heals as you shoot.OC will not die,and the marines cna expend all 300 LMG rounds at it and the gorg will just heal them up.Not to mention the fact that if its 2 gorgs,aiming between each OC(effectively healing 2 ocs at once),its...unstoppable.

And spit.It does 30 damage for crying out loud......

Next lets move on with the gruseom tale of aliens being overpowered.Marines rush to miasma again,and i get a upgraded TF up.At this point the gorgs are rushing out of gen,healing each other while 1-2 do their 30 damage spit thing(which incidentally is draining the marines with expensive medpacks every 5 seconds).Then they all moved out at once,the skulks rushing forward,gorgs running forward healing the skulks for like 50+ hp at once,dropping 4 ocs as they go......by this time its about 3-4 minutes,and its 2 vs 7 rts.HMM.I have this strange suspicion that if marines could do 7 vs 2 rt count with 4 shotgunners and a significant turret farm in a vital map chokepoint within 4 minutes,everyone would be bitching,but its aliens so its okay......

Mairnes die of course.Entire 10 minute game consists of marines trying to rush OCs,defended by healing gorgs(when healing gorgs is played,remove all damage counters on the offence chamber card as soon as they appear) and skulks killing marines who cant kill skulks and shoot at invulnerable OCs at the same time.7 shotgunners proceed to rush the OCs at miasma and manage to kill all of them,but by then its 10 minutes,they have 9 rts,2 onos,2-3 fades and 3rd hive is going up.

To flay and the rest of the development team : I can understand where you guys are coming from with the fast alien expansion thing,but i havent seen anything in the changelogs about SLOWING the alien rate of expansion so im going to have to tell you this.There is a point where the rate of expansion is so fast,its OVERPOWERED.I believe aliens have gone past this point,and so far you havent done anything about it,because you dont see a need to.Im not sure why.Is it because of your playtesting process,where the game is balanced but only when everyone has aimbot-like skills and can communicate with each other and organize attacks pratically instantly?

In pubs,get a smart alien team,get a smart marine team,and the smart alien team has a vital choke point near the marine start completely closed off in a minute and a half with 3 DCs up,with 5 rts pouring in ALL the res they need and skulks ambushing marines when they try to go the other way to cap rts.

Fro5ty · November 2003

It can be summed up in one word. BALANCE. The aliens are supposed to be able to expand quickly, that's how they fit with the story, or so it goes. If you wanna kill those OTS, rush the gorges. You kill the gorge and they lose ten res, especially if they don't manage to kill anyone that rushes. The gorge's spit is balanced by the fact that it's extremely easy to avoid at the distances marines should usually fight aliens. Before you start talking about game balance issues, play the game for a while. Get a feel for everything, how to counter different types of attacks. If you play with it, ready to learn from what you see, then you'll see that one side isn't more powerful than the other. A group of 2-3 marines can kill an onos, it just takes practice to know where to shoot. The only true advantage the aliens have is the fact that their hitboxes, ATM, are weird.

Ots · November 2003

It seems to be quite annoying to loose to an organized alien team, huh?

Anyhows. Marines can expand quickly too, You just cant expand if you start rounds by sitting at base humping the armory and what not..

Hunty · November 2003

Question : If organized alien teams can do this,why not marines?

Secondly you havent been paying attention.Rushing gorgs with 3 OCs,skulks and gorgs healing/spraying you is not possible.You just die.Horribly.I saw it happen,so yes,i should know.

Ph0enix · November 2003

The aliens had just dumped all their early res on RTs, gorges and OCs. To do that they all will have to have temp-gorged and so no-one will be goin fade or lerk anytime soon. So why did you then play into their hands and keep rushing a heavily defended point, with inadequate weaponary, simply handing out the rfk they need ?

You either needed an equivalent res investment, namely to hand out a shedload of shotties and medpack spam like a mad man, or stop goin to gen and go the foreboding route. Theres no way in hell 2 gorges (20 res) and 2 OCs (20 res) should die to three, four or even five 0 res mariens. If they did, <b>that</b> would be unbalanced.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>7 shotgunners proceed to rush the OCs at miasma and manage to kill all of them,but by then its 10 minutes,they have 9 rts,2 onos,2-3 fades and 3rd hive is going up.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Right idea, far too late. You should have been doing this earlier on to get rid of gen room.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>... and skulks ambushing marines when they try to go the other way to cap rts.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So you couldn't even cap any other RTs. It appears as if you were out played and out skilled TBH. No shame in that, just learn from it.

curlydave · November 2003

I find it very hard to kill marines as a gorge. I usually just healspray them because it's too hard to hit them with spit.

Ph0enix · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hunty @ Nov 7 2003, 12:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Secondly you havent been paying attention.Rushing gorgs with 3 OCs,skulks and gorgs healing/spraying you <b>is not possible</b>.You just die.Horribly.I saw it happen,so yes,i should know. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I've emphasised the not possible part. Your right, with no upgrades and LMGS it isn't. You now know this and won't do it again. Your learning, which is good, some people play forever and don't learn a thing <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

leek · November 2003

generator is one res node why didnt a small quad of 2-3 marines go and kill their other RTs?? if they have so many gorges then they have hardly any skulks!! go to silo rip-up forboding and silo res, proceed to kismet rip that up take the viaduct res node out, get the same squad to cap all those res nodes after taking the alien ones down. forget gen for now as long as u can keep miasma u can siege it later. theres a whole map and ur on about 1 location where aliens have spent all their res laming, yes generator is important but its allways possible to take it later.

heck if its 8v8 and they have 5 gorges then you could have rushed their hive and taken it out early with only 3 skulks to defend it u even would have had time to drop an armory under their hive for the marines.

Necro · November 2003

if you can't kill a gorge with an lmg or hell a sg you really need to get better!

gorge combats sg? WTH!

a gorge dies so fast even against unupgraded lmg

Dubbilex · November 2003

Too many aliens in Generator? Go someplace else <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'> IF they're at generator, doesn't iit make sense o capture perhaps...powersilo and some more nodes(then electrifying them)? Does it make any sense tht five minutes into the game the marines would be able to march into the hive hotspot completely uncontested? <b>No, it does not.</b> It takes moderation, and a steady stream of action to win as a marine. <i>Build up</i> to a hive assault - don't rely on a successful hive rush five minutes into the game. As a matter of fact, don't count on it at all.

My only advice is to learn from this game. Learn that going into alien territory in such an unprepared fashion (What? No weapon upgrades?) is a quick way to lose. it's a common misconception that a teamwork-savvy Marines can defeat an equal number of teamwork-savvy aliens - this usually will not happen. Yes, perhaps it can happen one you're at tier three....but <i>definitely</i> not at tier one (at least in public games <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>). Again - learn from this experience and design a new strategy around it. Comming a win takes a little more than brute force.

To quote (*MATRIX FEVER*) Agent Smith: "<i>You're using all the muscles but the one that counts</i>." (*END MATRIX FEVER*)

TeoH · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hunty @ Nov 7 2003, 06:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Due to people sitting in rr,half of each team joined a bit late.At least 30 seconds from game start.

IP,Armor,TF,3 turrets.All that done,i give out a shotgun and we move to miasma.We get an rt to miasma...its about 1 minute 15 seconds by then...i happen to glance at the rt count.

It was 1 vs 5  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Your description after this point is irrelevant, focus on your opening. Your opening play is slow and clumsy, you had no pressure or expansion and you dawdled at the most crucial point in the game. You're playing against a fast expansion strat, and you opened in the worst possible way.

The entire alien team has pushed out of their hive immediately, spread themselves out across the map, gorged, dropped resources and then grouped up, and through this whole period you haven't left your base. Aliens are not the only race who can open quickly and offensively, 20 seconds into the game you can have 4 marines on the alien side of the map knifing eggs, instead you have them building turrets.

When a team pulls a high risk strat such as 5 early RTs, the game is going to be decided early. You make an effective early offense and kill their expansion, or thier hive, or you do nothing and have a fade and a 2nd hive to deal with 2 minutes in. Guess which you accomplished.

If the alien team were to sit around in their base for 1 minute, build 3 OCs and a few chambers, then sheepishly push out towards the nearest node only to find the marine team, having capped the whole map, are now camping outside waiting for them, do you think they'd stand a chance of winning that round?

I'm not claiming the current build is perfectly balanced, it isnt, but you can do better than you did. And if you can't because your team were reluctant/incompetant, then you lost to a superior alien team.

Forlorn · November 2003

A big marine team is more than enough to rape a big alien team.

Also, the best counter to huge RT rush like that would have been to rush their hive. But whatever.

Kar-aK · November 2003

Since when is 8v8 a standard game anyway?

- Kar

oneshoe · November 2003

hmm all i can say is...That alien team had a strat...wow

unlike your team, they knew what they were doing ^^

Necrosis · November 2003

As others have said, if their entire team is parked around some OCs and RTs, then you should be AT THEIR HIVE LAYING WASTE TO EVERYTHING.

Putting your strength against their strength is DUMB. STUPID. THE GREATEST TACTICAL ERROR EVER. Put your strength where they are WEAK. Their hive could have gone down to a simple LMG rush, or at least crippled to the point where aliens would switch to massive defence.

Owned by teamwork.

Hunty · November 2003

You know what?Thats the strange thing.I DID send marines over to foreboding.They just died to skulks that came out of freaking nowhere.

Sent them to cargo.SAME THING.

Yes...skulk speed is THAT uber.

And we didnt "dawdle".We moved out of base as fast as we could,and ran straight into a defence that took a minute to go up.YOU couldnt have done it any faster.

MMZ_Torak · November 2003

Sounds to me like you just got beat. Better luck next time. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'>

Geminosity · November 2003

Sounds to me like venting =3

Just learn from the experience and work out how what to do next time. Reminds me of times like when a marine kept gunning me down and I died 3 times to this one guy before I wisened up and ambushed him instead... after that I was on a killing spree.
Nothing wrong with a bit of frustration just make sure you learn from it rather than blaming the game; it might not be super-balanced but it's hardly "OMG THE OTHER TEAM IS INVINCIBLE WITH A 100% WIN TACTIC!!!". It might feel like that sometimes but it's not <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Turkey2 · November 2003

That minute can really hurt you. Those gorges coulda dropped a res node and went back skulk in that minute, then your advantage is gone. Your marines have to be hitting the eggs or the freshly dropped res nodes. You cant afford to have the entire team build base at the beginning. You should be capping nodes within 20 secs of the round starting. OF course that will depend on the map and going to silo takes a bit longer. Hold off on the turrets so that you can afford to build the res. 30 res on turrets in the first minute is 2 unbuilt res nodes that would give you your turrets in short order. You have to get a res node out of your starting res or you will most likely lose every game.

uranium_235 · November 2003

One game, in Eclipse, I said 'screw you commander' and ran off on my own. Knifed three gorges, one in an egg, and took down two RTs.

Align · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>One game, in Eclipse, I said 'screw you commander' and ran off on my own. Knifed three gorges, one in an egg, and took down two RTs.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
There should always be skulks patrolling the area of the gorge, but there NEVER are <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> . . .

DeepShadows · November 2003

sounds to me just like your team sucked HAWHAWHAWHAWHAWH NO ORGANIZATION = Cannot kill O chambers, and so forth. THAT is your problem.

Stormy · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hunty @ Nov 7 2003, 12:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> (when healing gorgs is played,remove all damage counters on the offence chamber card as soon as they appear)  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I so need to work on a Natural Selection card game.

Majin · November 2003

hunty
you need to relax, go play some CS, come back and you will love NS again!
you had a bad game, simple as that!

1 more thing, you had better get off the gorges case or i'll have to find out where you live and put a SKULK HEAD in your bed! (god father).

gamesguy · November 2003

u want to know a really easy way to combat all those ocs? drop a cc right next to them, all the ocs will do is shoot at the cc(with 6k hp =D). now u are free to kill the gorges and kill off the ocs right after.

Nemesis_Zero · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 06:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> One game, in Eclipse, I said 'screw you commander' and ran off on my own. Knifed three gorges, one in an egg, and took down two RTs.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
That's one of the reasons I love the concept of cat-packs - from now on, a marine doing this might suddenly become very fast for a very short time in an empty room - just to find himself subsequently stumbling in a hiveroom with 10 HP without of having enemy contact before <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

SlayerOfSkulks · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stormy @ Nov 7 2003, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hunty @ Nov 7 2003, 12:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> (when healing gorgs is played,remove all damage counters on the offence chamber card as soon as they appear) </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I so need to work on a Natural Selection card game.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I've quite liked the idea of a Vandal Hearts/FFT style strategy combat version of NS, myself. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Why,should This Be Possible?

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