<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Nov 7 2003, 05:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 7 2003, 05:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I mean, the very definition of an exploit is something that's NOT MEANT TO BE THERE!!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, 'the very definition of an exploit' is:
<i>ex·ploit (ksploit, k-sploit) n.
1. An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one. See Synonyms at feat1.
2. To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents.
3. To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. See Synonyms at manipulate. To advertise; promote. </i>
Note how Flayra's name isnt in there, also note that the only definition which even vaguely fits the way you're trying to use the word is completely subjective, and not at all helpful in trying to settle your little dispute. You know why this definition doesn't fit the term you're using? Because the term, in the way you mean it, is imaginary, and has no formal definition. So trying to argue with someone over it, or use a statement such as 'The very definition of an exploit...' is quite silly.
Bunnyhopping for Alien classes could easily be curbed by setting the Air speed cap to a very low value, or simply by setting it to 100%. Since abilities like leap and lerk flight already bypass the air speed cap, this would only really effect BHing, or possibly knockback. I'm quite sure Flay knows this, and so you can interpret the presence of alien hopping as a green flag. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> K, you ever consider that there's more than more than one defination for any given word? English is a fairly complex langauge, here are some other definations you conviently left out:
Exploit
<i>A security hole or an instance of taking advantageof a security hole.</i>
Here's another:
<i>n. [originally cracker slang] 1. A vulnerability in software that can be used for breaking security or otherwise attacking an Internet host over the network. The Ping O' Death is a famous exploit. 2. More grammatically, a program that exploits an exploit in sense 1,</i>
And here's from CAL-NS:
<i>EXPLOIT - A bug in the game engine, physics, or a map that allows players and classes to do things that they were not intended to be able to do. </i>
I think I was correct in saying:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean, the very definition of an exploit is something that's NOT MEANT TO BE THERE!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not very 'subjective' consider that our dictionary's have been updated since 200 years ago.
<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Nov 7 2003, 09:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Nov 7 2003, 09:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When people start breaking out the dictionary definitions of words, you know the thread just grew pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its dictionary<b>.com</b> which of course means it is imbued with Cyber Digital Interfreeway powers of winnage.
<!--QuoteBegin--Rennex+Nov 7 2003, 10:43 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rennex @ Nov 7 2003, 10:43 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> When people start breaking out the dictionary definitions of words, you know the thread just grew pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> WAT R U TALKIN ABUT NUB!!!!!
LOOK:
<b>Pointless</b>
<i>\Point"less\, a. Having no point; blunt; wanting keenness; obtuse; as, a pointless sword.</i>
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Thats a cute idea, but it really won't change anything for jump scripts. And if you can't max the pistol out without a script you have arthritis :/<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My opinion is if it provides one less avenue for people to script etc, then well done for us all.
I'd rather get rid of these options one by one then take a look at the list of them and say "that's too many, we can't possibly get all of these before the next release, so I'm doing none."
Hicks~ if you think you can bunnyhop as a skulk without holding down crouch, you have no idea what we are talking about. Do us all a favor and say no more.
TeoH~ "n00b" has no formal definition either, but I think we can all agree on its meaning and apply it in a meaningful way to convey our thoughts. It is slang, and we all have a consensus on what it means, just like "exploit". Exploit gets its meaning in ns from the second definition, that you are "exploiting" a flaw in the game (selfishly and unethically). I think everyone can agree here that if the dev meant for something to be in the game, it is now a flaw, and it is not an exploit to use it. Blindly pulling out your dictionary every time you have an arguement isn't always going to work. I only beat people over the head with definitions when they are trying to twist the meaning of a word, not when they are using it correctly and the word doesn't happen to have an exact definition because it is slang. Maybe you should try this.
I still don't think fades get speed from bunnyhopping. You can "coast" a bit after blinking, but if you just go from a stand still and start bunnyhopping, I've never noticed a speed advantage at all. Certainlly not like a skulk. My point was that if a skulk was getting the kind of speed advantage a fade gets without blink, it would be near useless as a method to gain speed. I don't see fades getting away very easily when their hive is killed and they don't have blink, do you? As for exactly why bunnyhopping works when holding down crouch as a skulk, I may be wrong on that. My arguement still stands however, in that it was intentionally left in, and if you made it where crouch worked the same way as non-crouch, a skulk wouldn't be able to bunnyhop. However, answer me this. Why is it that when you are a skulk and you don't hold down crouch, you have NO air control? If your theory on a "sticky" skulk were correct, why would your air control not work? Have you ever been in a game where air_accel was turned off? It feels exactly the same as a skulk that is not crouching.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bunnyhopping for Alien classes could easily be curbed by setting the Air speed cap to a very low value<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may work, so would disabling air accel. So would not allowing crouch to make a skulk "unsticky". I think I made a valid point. I'm really not sure what it is you are trying to disprove here, since you seem to agree with my conclusion. You just go down a list and say "false" which sounds pretty nifty, but in reality you offer no explanation and add no new information to the discussion. Try elaborating. When bunnyhopping came out in CS there were a lot of people who were **** off about it, and found that disabling air accel in their servers made it impossible. This makes sense, because air accel is what speeds you up. When you do the turning movement that is what you are doing, the jump is just to offer as little friction as possible. The side effect of no air accel is that you had no air control either. It's my theory that the whole reason the physics were done as they are is so that your air control is proportional to your falling speed. Since you're falling speed increases as you fall, you're lateral speed must increase as well if you are to have the same amount of control. I certainly don't like the feeling of no air control, it feels very icky.
The problem with what you call "internet slang" is that it's meaning and interpretation (due to the lack of it's presence in formal language) is extremely subjective, as has proven your post. Thus saying "everyone can agree" is extremely arrogant and very short-minded.
And also, I don't really understand how you're trying to explain that fade bhopping is not possible, while lateron saying that bhopping is connected to air acceleration. Are you saying different objects get different acceleration? If you do, maybe you should revise Galilei's principle on body acceleration
<!--QuoteBegin--eggmac+Nov 7 2003, 02:55 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eggmac @ Nov 7 2003, 02:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem with what you call "internet slang" is that it's meaning and interpretation (due to the lack of it's presence in formal language) is extremely subjective, as has proven your post. Thus saying "everyone can agree" is extremely arrogant and very short-minded.
And also, I don't really understand how you're trying to explain that fade bhopping is not possible, while lateron saying that bhopping is connected to air acceleration. Are you saying different objects get different acceleration? If you do, maybe you should revise Galilei's principle on body acceleration <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not only is it slang, but if you go up several posts you will see the other 3 definations for exploit. And yes, it is understood for the most part. It's subjective, but to keep playing on this would be a gross exageration.
He's saying fade bhopping isn't possible because Flay might have turned it off for the Fade. Which could be entirely possible. Fade's don't get as much air_accel perhaps because before it made them slide around like hell after blinking. Who knows. I do think Sling may be on to something, I don't seem to get anywhere near the increase from bunny hopping like I do with a gorge/skulk and even the onos.
I dont know how we got into this ethical discussion of bunnyhopping, but the bottom line is we all know it is an exploit of the engine. In NS however the community and Flayra have accepted it, therefor it is ok. Bickering about whether its write or wrong, ways to disable it, and quoting dictionary is useless. Either practice bhopping, or refrain from it. Now that _special is gone im just saying some people will have to re-learn how to bunnyhop. Tons of people have been ninja'ing special scripts from TFC to bunnyhop in NS, and soon it will be gone, thats all this was about.
i think bhopping is more important in tfc, and so the difference between _special and normal jump;wait scripts is greater. I present this example: a scout capping on a scout rush and winning the match 1-0 or not getting to the basement soon enough and dying and losing in OT 0-1 or something. in NS, there are few situations that this crazy speed would come in VERY VERY handy. I'm not saying the extra speed isnt an advantage, but i doubt much will change in terms of gameplay without _special. skulk rushes get mowed down no matter how fast you can bhop :x camp a hallway at the beginning and its like shootin fish in a barrell
<!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Nov 7 2003, 01:16 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Nov 7 2003, 01:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> *sigh* You still don't get it. I give up. No point in wasting my energy arguing further. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You can argue with Flayra if bhop is exploit in .. say .. TFC, but you cannot argue about his own game. He decides what is part of the game and what is not, he decides what was INTENDED. You don't have to agree with some game feature but you can't call it exploit. E.g. someone thinks stomp is cheap but can't call it exploit because it was INTENDED. The only one who can say what was intended is the author.
I'll offer to race anyone with fade with me bhopping and you running in a straight line. I'm pretty sure you gain speed still just the base Fade speed is slower so the speed you gain is less, because you gain speed equal to about 1.7 (if it's the same as TFC, not sure if it is, because you don't drop back to 105% speed when you go over the cap) times your base speed.
<!--QuoteBegin--e.Nadagast+Nov 7 2003, 08:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (e.Nadagast @ Nov 7 2003, 08:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm pretty sure you gain speed still just the base Fade speed is slower so the speed you gain is less, because you gain speed equal to about 1.7 (if it's the same as TFC, not sure if it is, because you don't drop back to 105% speed when you go over the cap) times your base speed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't work like that anymore, the 170% base speed behaviour you describe only applied in 1.04. The current system uses an air speed cap equal to 2x the classes' base speed. When you hit this in the air you do not lose speed, instead you are fixed at 2x and do not continue to accelerate. This applies to all classes including marine, the air speed cap is only ever broken by JPs/Blink/Lerk Flight and Skulk Leap, all of which are special exceptions. When leaping as skulk you pass the 2x barrier, yet will drop back down to 2x if you hop upon landing.
Skulk air control is not affected in the slightest by the use of +duck. The reason we hold crouch when hopping as a skulk is to disable the wall running code. (If you haven't noticed, crouch as skulk removes you from a wall and prevents you sticking back on). Also, there are more ways to attain speed than through air control, and the act of bunnyhopping will maintain any speed you can produce, it is not linked to air acceleration.
The fade can hop his way to 2x base speed in exactly the same way any other class can, obviously 2x fade base speed is not that impressive compared to 2x skulk speed, but you'd be blind not to notice the difference:
Comments
I mean, the very definition of an exploit is something that's NOT MEANT TO BE THERE!!!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, 'the very definition of an exploit' is:
<i>ex·ploit (ksploit, k-sploit)
n.
1. An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one. See Synonyms at feat1.
tr.v. ex·ploit·ed, ex·ploit·ing, ex·ploits (k-sploit, ksploit)
2. To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents.
3. To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. See Synonyms at manipulate.
To advertise; promote.
</i>
Note how Flayra's name isnt in there, also note that the only definition which even vaguely fits the way you're trying to use the word is completely subjective, and not at all helpful in trying to settle your little dispute. You know why this definition doesn't fit the term you're using? Because the term, in the way you mean it, is imaginary, and has no formal definition. So trying to argue with someone over it, or use a statement such as 'The very definition of an exploit...' is quite silly.
Bunnyhopping for Alien classes could easily be curbed by setting the Air speed cap to a very low value, or simply by setting it to 100%. Since abilities like leap and lerk flight already bypass the air speed cap, this would only really effect BHing, or possibly knockback. I'm quite sure Flay knows this, and so you can interpret the presence of alien hopping as a green flag. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
K, you ever consider that there's more than more than one defination for any given word? English is a fairly complex langauge, here are some other definations you conviently left out:
Exploit
<i>A security hole or an instance of taking advantageof a security hole.</i>
Here's another:
<i>n. [originally cracker slang] 1. A vulnerability in
software that can be used for breaking security or otherwise
attacking an Internet host over the network. The Ping O' Death is
a famous exploit. 2. More grammatically, a program that exploits an
exploit in sense 1,</i>
And here's from CAL-NS:
<i>EXPLOIT - A bug in the game engine, physics, or a map that allows players and classes to do things that they were not intended to be able to do. </i>
I think I was correct in saying:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I mean, the very definition of an exploit is something that's NOT MEANT TO BE THERE!!!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not very 'subjective' consider that our dictionary's have been updated since 200 years ago.
Its dictionary<b>.com</b> which of course means it is imbued with Cyber Digital Interfreeway powers of winnage.
WAT R U TALKIN ABUT NUB!!!!!
LOOK:
<b>Pointless</b>
<i>\Point"less\, a. Having no point; blunt; wanting keenness; obtuse; as, a pointless sword.</i>
OBVIOUSY U HAVE NOOO PONT!
My opinion is if it provides one less avenue for people to script etc, then well done for us all.
I'd rather get rid of these options one by one then take a look at the list of them and say "that's too many, we can't possibly get all of these before the next release, so I'm doing none."
TeoH~ "n00b" has no formal definition either, but I think we can all agree on its meaning and apply it in a meaningful way to convey our thoughts. It is slang, and we all have a consensus on what it means, just like "exploit". Exploit gets its meaning in ns from the second definition, that you are "exploiting" a flaw in the game (selfishly and unethically). I think everyone can agree here that if the dev meant for something to be in the game, it is now a flaw, and it is not an exploit to use it. Blindly pulling out your dictionary every time you have an arguement isn't always going to work. I only beat people over the head with definitions when they are trying to twist the meaning of a word, not when they are using it correctly and the word doesn't happen to have an exact definition because it is slang. Maybe you should try this.
I still don't think fades get speed from bunnyhopping. You can "coast" a bit after blinking, but if you just go from a stand still and start bunnyhopping, I've never noticed a speed advantage at all. Certainlly not like a skulk. My point was that if a skulk was getting the kind of speed advantage a fade gets without blink, it would be near useless as a method to gain speed. I don't see fades getting away very easily when their hive is killed and they don't have blink, do you? As for exactly why bunnyhopping works when holding down crouch as a skulk, I may be wrong on that. My arguement still stands however, in that it was intentionally left in, and if you made it where crouch worked the same way as non-crouch, a skulk wouldn't be able to bunnyhop. However, answer me this. Why is it that when you are a skulk and you don't hold down crouch, you have NO air control? If your theory on a "sticky" skulk were correct, why would your air control not work? Have you ever been in a game where air_accel was turned off? It feels exactly the same as a skulk that is not crouching.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Bunnyhopping for Alien classes could easily be curbed by setting the Air speed cap to a very low value<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This may work, so would disabling air accel. So would not allowing crouch to make a skulk "unsticky". I think I made a valid point. I'm really not sure what it is you are trying to disprove here, since you seem to agree with my conclusion. You just go down a list and say "false" which sounds pretty nifty, but in reality you offer no explanation and add no new information to the discussion. Try elaborating. When bunnyhopping came out in CS there were a lot of people who were **** off about it, and found that disabling air accel in their servers made it impossible. This makes sense, because air accel is what speeds you up. When you do the turning movement that is what you are doing, the jump is just to offer as little friction as possible. The side effect of no air accel is that you had no air control either. It's my theory that the whole reason the physics were done as they are is so that your air control is proportional to your falling speed. Since you're falling speed increases as you fall, you're lateral speed must increase as well if you are to have the same amount of control. I certainly don't like the feeling of no air control, it feels very icky.
And also, I don't really understand how you're trying to explain that fade bhopping is not possible, while lateron saying that bhopping is connected to air acceleration. Are you saying different objects get different acceleration? If you do, maybe you should revise Galilei's principle on body acceleration
And also, I don't really understand how you're trying to explain that fade bhopping is not possible, while lateron saying that bhopping is connected to air acceleration. Are you saying different objects get different acceleration? If you do, maybe you should revise Galilei's principle on body acceleration <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not only is it slang, but if you go up several posts you will see the other 3 definations for exploit. And yes, it is understood for the most part. It's subjective, but to keep playing on this would be a gross exageration.
He's saying fade bhopping isn't possible because Flay might have turned it off for the Fade. Which could be entirely possible. Fade's don't get as much air_accel perhaps because before it made them slide around like hell after blinking. Who knows. I do think Sling may be on to something, I don't seem to get anywhere near the increase from bunny hopping like I do with a gorge/skulk and even the onos.
You can argue with Flayra if bhop is exploit in .. say .. TFC, but you cannot argue about his own game. He decides what is part of the game and what is not, he decides what was INTENDED. You don't have to agree with some game feature but you can't call it exploit. E.g. someone thinks stomp is cheap but can't call it exploit because it was INTENDED. The only one who can say what was intended is the author.
I'd be interested in seeing the results as well.
It doesn't work like that anymore, the 170% base speed behaviour you describe only applied in 1.04. The current system uses an air speed cap equal to 2x the classes' base speed. When you hit this in the air you do not lose speed, instead you are fixed at 2x and do not continue to accelerate. This applies to all classes including marine, the air speed cap is only ever broken by JPs/Blink/Lerk Flight and Skulk Leap, all of which are special exceptions. When leaping as skulk you pass the 2x barrier, yet will drop back down to 2x if you hop upon landing.
Skulk air control is not affected in the slightest by the use of +duck. The reason we hold crouch when hopping as a skulk is to disable the wall running code. (If you haven't noticed, crouch as skulk removes you from a wall and prevents you sticking back on). Also, there are more ways to attain speed than through air control, and the act of bunnyhopping will maintain any speed you can produce, it is not linked to air acceleration.
The fade can hop his way to 2x base speed in exactly the same way any other class can, obviously 2x fade base speed is not that impressive compared to 2x skulk speed, but you'd be blind not to notice the difference:
www.oclube.com/usuarios/teoh/nubs.rar