Good question, similar to a tech upgrade or something? Then the Marines would need their own counter-part to that wouldn't they? <!--emo&???--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->
Well, I'd assume that most if not all of the aliens can upgrade their speed. And Bob has camoflauge. And he can't use that at the start, since a building has to be built for it.
Up until recently, the aliens all upgraded themselves individually. This makes for overall less strategy though, because the enemy would never have a specific strategy to deal with, because the alien team would have no coherence in their upgrades. Now, the alien builders create structurs that grant team-wide upgrades.
It's a trade-off between allowing aliens to play exactly as they want to and promoting overall strategy, and in this case, strategy wins out. We can always go back to the old system if it works better though.
Individual/Comunal upgrades have NOTHING to do with strategy, in fact comunal upgrades widely limit combos and different permutations which is what makes the game fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--Huan+Feb. 12 2002,17:11--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Huan @ Feb. 12 2002,17:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Individual/Comunal upgrades have NOTHING to do with strategy, in fact comunal upgrades widely limit combos and different permutations which is what makes the game fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Stratagy maybe is lowered for the alien team, but raised for the marines, as it is easier to come up with a counter attack if all the aliens are at the same upgrade level.
I'm actually with everyone else on this really. I think 'Bob the Alien' summed it up best (if a tad tactlessly). You mean I've got to rely on someone ELSE to help me win as an alien? The aliens were supposed to be -all- about individual play, with the -very- occasional working together when you're going after the same squad, or when the Marine's are just really really good.
I vote for individual upgrades, though I'm not sure if 'voting' will change anything.
"It's a trade-off between allowing aliens to play exactly as they want to and promoting overall strategy, and in this case, strategy wins out."
In a perfect world, the aliens could all completely choose their own upgrades. However, when they do this, it reduces the overall strategy in the game. I believe that it's better to have the aliens not choose this part for themeselves in order for the game as a whole to have depth. I just don't see how there could be strategic play when the marines are always up against an essentially random force.
but there should be that better - aliens half-individual (that means some of choices make that nest or whatewer like upgrade level to overall wich makes aliens better , but only difference - that upgrades more that side wich is good to that type of alien) another choices makes aliens themselves like what alien type they want to be. marines should have a classes , like in team fortress thats makes more ballance - cos fighting with many difference of types agains enemy who are all same is making this fights unballanced.like many type of marines or aliens against one type of enemy - that sucks thats same as TFC whare enemy can choose only theyr type but u got that random choice.so make types to other sides. and with marines - there some of choices makes commander to , like with aliens
Having standarized aliens would decrease the depth of gameplay in my opinion. After the initial release of NS and after the general community gains a feel for each upgrade level of play for both sides, they will then develop strategies in an A + B = C manner as each sucessive upgrade changes the game dynamics in a 100% predictable way. You know that once you see alien "X" with level 2 upgrades you know exactly how to approach the situation after killing or being killed. "Ok, so they are lvl two. I know this gun + these grenades + this armor will allow me to kick butt all over the place" This could possibly reduce the individual need for teamwork as the envriontmet becomes more predictable and the individual themselves can learn how to deal with that envrionemnt without as many teammates around to help, if any at all.
Allowing individual alien upgrades allows for a much more "natural" envrioment of knowing the geneal idea of what to expect but not knowing the specifics of what really happens until it happening. This could increase the "fear" factor and the desire to have a buddy around just in case something happens that you can't deal with individually. It also allows for more alien tactics as they can go a few "spawns" at level "X" to try and trick the marines into thinking they are a fairly weak bunch, only to upgrade next spawn and run through kicking butt.
If you look at any RTS out there today indivudal upgrades are an option for every player (e.g starcraft unit damage/armor upgrades)
Just a though, maybe I'm totally wrong, because atm I lack gameplay experiecne to really make a through counter argument.
You may know that a level 5 has certain armor and certain speed, but he can still eat you in groves, as demonstrated <a href="http://www.gamespy.com/asp/image.asp?/reviews/december01/pikmingcn/1.jpg" target="_blank">here</a>!
Ok, screenshots of Pikmin aside, my point is that its still going to take at least *some* team coordination on the marine's part to put any serious dents (or bullet holes) in the aliens plans.
And lets not forget that there are more forces at play than just what evolutionary level you are and how much armor you have. I imagine that *most* of the strategy will not be item/skill oriented -- it will be ACTION and EXECUTION oriented. You might have awesome armor and some grenades, but you could still end up as lunch meat if you just sit around, or try and go take the entire alien force by yourself.
And, from what I read, different buildings do different things -- speed, armor, etc. are seperately upgradable (I think?). So you might come across towering hulks of level 1's (thats a sight, for sure), with full armor and so forth, or you might not come across anything at all, until it drops from the ceiling, uncloaks itself, and shreds you up like.. erm.. a marine.
I certainly hope there won't end up being one "über-l337" combination of evolutionary stages that produce the ultimate, unstoppable aliens, and no other set of traits could compete -- then you'd have incredibly boring games. Rather, there would be any number of combinations which could be effective (but not always effective -- it could depend on the map you're playing, the people you're playing with or against, or maybe your mood that day).
Yeah... Was I making a point or something? Umm... probably something like "Go buy gamecube, play pikmin, command hordes of unstoppable demon ants with cute flowers on their heads."
Or maybe something more like "Team-based improvements != lack of individuality/originality"
Yeah, that sounds right. Now I'm off to command my demon-hordes.
Now posibly you could have the major evolutions be building specific but still allow the aliens to do some evolving on their own. That way there is some unity but differences.
well every difference type of aliens have some limits like runners (fast aliens) have armour and strenght max level 2 and speed level 5 heavy aliens got max speed level 2 and armor strenght 5 and marines - why they dont have to upgrade or least choose like in TFC difference types of marines like scout,sniper,heavy weapons guy,enginer etc...
Teamplay relies in coordination and complementing each other, this takes skill and adds fun to the game.
Comunal upgrades (apart from sucking big time in pub play) are a easy way for a team to do something without ANY skill involved on it, its like attacking a zone coordinatedly from the same entrance (no coordination required, you just enter with the others) or attacking from different entrances (which is MUCH MORE difficult cause you can't see them).
Marine's "overall strategy" is decided, mostly, by the commander, which is a omniscient guy in which the marines trust. Alien's "overall strategy" is a agreement the team does before the match (im refering to hardcore clan play here), and afterwards tries to comunicate and coordinate their movements to adapt the match outcome.
Being a good marine teamplayer means following instructions which makes the commander the ABSOLUTE key, if he is good you are good, if he isn't then you arent, you are a movable sentrygun.
NOTE: Good marine teamplayers will know when their commander is failing and will be able to take good decisions (attack/regroup) based on what they see, but it takes much more skill to see that for the player than from the commander.
Meanwhile, being a good alien teamplayer requieres the skill that the marine player can (or cannot) have for everyone on the team. Usually (like in q3) there is one guy more bind-oriented which knowldege about teamplay is deeper who decides the overall strategy which the others follow, obiously, the hierarchical organization is more powerfull than a horizontal one (guess why every army in the world uses it? :p). So alien players will try to capitalize the inteligence in one or two players while the marines WILL capitalize it on the commander.
Now, if you want aliens to be green-skinned marines you can give the "central alien" the power to _directly_ affect on his team's behaviour without his team doing anything for it, which takes no skill. Or, you can make the Alien team more horizontally based without enabling comunal upgrades so that every single player needs skill to coordinate movements.
Keep in mind that VERY PROBABLY, clan matches will be played in CO-like rules in CS (you know, only Terrorist rounds count, and you play once as T and then as CT) cause perfectly balanced teams on every match is an UNREACHABLE goal (u must still aim at it, tho). Marines can't adapt, they are static forces while aliens have the power to mutate, if the marines are camping they can use sneaky attacks (lvl3 and lvl4) instead of those that the marines whould like to see (predictable as lvl1 or lvl5), if the marines are attacking hard they will rely on their low levels to contain it (lvl1 lvl2, etc...), thus being aliens the skill force, not the "let ONE guy organize us" force.
Imo, individual upgrades are a must in pub play, if you are good and you are on a newbie server you will be able to still have fun by doing your own war with your fully upgraded lvl5. While in a clan match, teamplay and coordination must be rewarded as much as possible, and one guy deciding for a comunal upgrade has nothing to do with teamplay.
"I just don't see how there could be strategic play when the marines are always up against an essentially random force."
Its not random, aliens are adapting the marines and marines will do their best to counter it. Strategic play means variety and adaptability, if at min 5 aliens research [X powerup here], all the future variables not involving this powerup will be lost, so the marines won't have to think about them, example:
Min 2 into the game, aliens research speed and resistance, this means they are betting for a offensive match. Full stop, the aliens betted for something and if this fails they are lost, they cant adapt cause they need a lot of time to research strength a couple of times to make they more spammy (defensive) and less sneaky (offensive), this could happen on min 12 or maybe on min 18 when the match is already over, where is the strategy?
Strategy are coordinated attacks in team fortres, you can first to a 4-man spy rush to sum their base into chaos and afterwards do a scout rush (which will arrive real soon cause they are fckin fast), if this doesnt work you can try it again (who knows..) or ADAPT, change your strat and go for a slow attack, a couple of soldiers a couple of demomans and ask a def sniper to go midfield, then try to overrun their base, the first to die goes scout and tries to cap (or you rocket/greande jump to cap faster). You can also use one spy and some recons for a faster attack or maybe 2 spies simulating a spyrush but then... THIS IS STRATEGY :D
The longer and deeper my comments are, the less people are interested on it and answer it, great <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
god this sounds like starcraft too much! However if it did turn out like Starcraft you'd know u had a good mod on your hands - Starcraft owned <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->. Can you imagine a team of 10 aliens and at the beginning of the round 9 turning into builders and just working on 1 alien that rushes the marine base <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->. imagine not as it will be true !!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH (realises he just gave away tactics) bugger
Comments
It's a trade-off between allowing aliens to play exactly as they want to and promoting overall strategy, and in this case, strategy wins out. We can always go back to the old system if it works better though.
Stratagy maybe is lowered for the alien team, but raised for the marines, as it is easier to come up with a counter attack if all the aliens are at the same upgrade level.
But I think since Flayra & team can test play these features we should take their word for it that this plays better.
Imagine 7 of 8 alien players evolving into builders and constructing all the upgrades all at once.
I vote for individual upgrades, though I'm not sure if 'voting' will change anything.
"It's a trade-off between allowing aliens to play exactly as they want to and promoting overall strategy, and in this case, strategy wins out."
In a perfect world, the aliens could all completely choose their own upgrades. However, when they do this, it reduces the overall strategy in the game. I believe that it's better to have the aliens not choose this part for themeselves in order for the game as a whole to have depth. I just don't see how there could be strategic play when the marines are always up against an essentially random force.
(that means some of choices make that nest or whatewer
like upgrade level to overall wich makes aliens better ,
but only difference - that upgrades more that side wich is good to that type of alien) another choices makes aliens themselves like what alien type they want to be.
marines should have a classes , like in team fortress
thats makes more ballance - cos fighting with many difference of types agains enemy who are all same is making this fights unballanced.like many type of marines or aliens against one type of enemy - that sucks
thats same as TFC whare enemy can choose only theyr type but u got that random choice.so make types to other sides.
and with marines - there some of choices makes commander
to , like with aliens
Allowing individual alien upgrades allows for a much more "natural" envrioment of knowing the geneal idea of what to expect but not knowing the specifics of what really happens until it happening. This could increase the "fear" factor and the desire to have a buddy around just in case something happens that you can't deal with individually. It also allows for more alien tactics as they can go a few "spawns" at level "X" to try and trick the marines into thinking they are a fairly weak bunch, only to upgrade next spawn and run through kicking butt.
If you look at any RTS out there today indivudal upgrades are an option for every player (e.g starcraft unit damage/armor upgrades)
Just a though, maybe I'm totally wrong, because atm I lack gameplay experiecne to really make a through counter argument.
Ok, screenshots of Pikmin aside, my point is that its still going to take at least *some* team coordination on the marine's part to put any serious dents (or bullet holes) in the aliens plans.
And lets not forget that there are more forces at play than just what evolutionary level you are and how much armor you have. I imagine that *most* of the strategy will not be item/skill oriented -- it will be ACTION and EXECUTION oriented. You might have awesome armor and some grenades, but you could still end up as lunch meat if you just sit around, or try and go take the entire alien force by yourself.
And, from what I read, different buildings do different things -- speed, armor, etc. are seperately upgradable (I think?). So you might come across towering hulks of level 1's (thats a sight, for sure), with full armor and so forth, or you might not come across anything at all, until it drops from the ceiling, uncloaks itself, and shreds you up like.. erm.. a marine.
I certainly hope there won't end up being one "über-l337" combination of evolutionary stages that produce the ultimate, unstoppable aliens, and no other set of traits could compete -- then you'd have incredibly boring games. Rather, there would be any number of combinations which could be effective (but not always effective -- it could depend on the map you're playing, the people you're playing with or against, or maybe your mood that day).
Yeah... Was I making a point or something? Umm... probably something like "Go buy gamecube, play pikmin, command hordes of unstoppable demon ants with cute flowers on their heads."
Or maybe something more like "Team-based improvements != lack of individuality/originality"
Yeah, that sounds right. Now I'm off to command my demon-hordes.
-Jacius
like runners (fast aliens) have armour and strenght max level 2 and speed level 5 heavy aliens got max speed level 2 and armor strenght 5 and marines - why they dont have to upgrade or least choose like in TFC difference types of marines like scout,sniper,heavy weapons guy,enginer etc...
Teamplay relies in coordination and complementing each other, this takes skill and adds fun to the game.
Comunal upgrades (apart from sucking big time in pub play) are a easy way for a team to do something without ANY skill involved on it, its like attacking a zone coordinatedly from the same entrance (no coordination required, you just enter with the others) or attacking from different entrances (which is MUCH MORE difficult cause you can't see them).
Marine's "overall strategy" is decided, mostly, by the commander, which is a omniscient guy in which the marines trust. Alien's "overall strategy" is a agreement the team does before the match (im refering to hardcore clan play here), and afterwards tries to comunicate and coordinate their movements to adapt the match outcome.
Being a good marine teamplayer means following instructions which makes the commander the ABSOLUTE key, if he is good you are good, if he isn't then you arent, you are a movable sentrygun.
NOTE: Good marine teamplayers will know when their commander is failing and will be able to take good decisions (attack/regroup) based on what they see, but it takes much more skill to see that for the player than from the commander.
Meanwhile, being a good alien teamplayer requieres the skill that the marine player can (or cannot) have for everyone on the team. Usually (like in q3) there is one guy more bind-oriented which knowldege about teamplay is deeper who decides the overall strategy which the others follow, obiously, the hierarchical organization is more powerfull than a horizontal one (guess why every army in the world uses it? :p). So alien players will try to capitalize the inteligence in one or two players while the marines WILL capitalize it on the commander.
Now, if you want aliens to be green-skinned marines you can give the "central alien" the power to _directly_ affect on his team's behaviour without his team doing anything for it, which takes no skill. Or, you can make the Alien team more horizontally based without enabling comunal upgrades so that every single player needs skill to coordinate movements.
Keep in mind that VERY PROBABLY, clan matches will be played in CO-like rules in CS (you know, only Terrorist rounds count, and you play once as T and then as CT) cause perfectly balanced teams on every match is an UNREACHABLE goal (u must still aim at it, tho). Marines can't adapt, they are static forces while aliens have the power to mutate, if the marines are camping they can use sneaky attacks (lvl3 and lvl4) instead of those that the marines whould like to see (predictable as lvl1 or lvl5), if the marines are attacking hard they will rely on their low levels to contain it (lvl1 lvl2, etc...), thus being aliens the skill force, not the "let ONE guy organize us" force.
Imo, individual upgrades are a must in pub play, if you are good and you are on a newbie server you will be able to still have fun by doing your own war with your fully upgraded lvl5. While in a clan match, teamplay and coordination must be rewarded as much as possible, and one guy deciding for a comunal upgrade has nothing to do with teamplay.
"I just don't see how there could be strategic play when the marines are always up against an essentially random force."
Its not random, aliens are adapting the marines and marines will do their best to counter it. Strategic play means variety and adaptability, if at min 5 aliens research [X powerup here], all the future variables not involving this powerup will be lost, so the marines won't have to think about them, example:
Min 2 into the game, aliens research speed and resistance, this means they are betting for a offensive match. Full stop, the aliens betted for something and if this fails they are lost, they cant adapt cause they need a lot of time to research strength a couple of times to make they more spammy (defensive) and less sneaky (offensive), this could happen on min 12 or maybe on min 18 when the match is already over, where is the strategy?
Strategy are coordinated attacks in team fortres, you can first to a 4-man spy rush to sum their base into chaos and afterwards do a scout rush (which will arrive real soon cause they are fckin fast), if this doesnt work you can try it again (who knows..) or ADAPT, change your strat and go for a slow attack, a couple of soldiers a couple of demomans and ask a def sniper to go midfield, then try to overrun their base, the first to die goes scout and tries to cap (or you rocket/greande jump to cap faster). You can also use one spy and some recons for a faster attack or maybe 2 spies simulating a spyrush but then... THIS IS STRATEGY :D