God, The Couch Potato?

Bogglesteinsky · November 2003

i dont suppose you want to back up your statement with evidence, not just opinions

uranium_235 · November 2003

Evidence? Just have <i>faith</i> that I'm right.

<b>Badum TISS</b>

No, anyway, man, just read that.

"Why doesn't god reveal himself."

"Because the bible says it's a greater blessing to believe without seeing."

Honestly... you can read that and NOT fall over laughing? Man I know pro-German WW2 propoganda that was better then THAT.

Bosnian_Cowboy · November 2003

I find it offensive that you equate God with the Nazi political group.

Bogglesteinsky · November 2003

you still havent provided me with any evidence as to why it is stupid, which, i find very offensive anyway

it is also breaking discussion forum rule number 2:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><b>2.: Never, ever, be judgemental towards the other side.</b>
Blanket labelling of another opinion as <b>"stupid"</b>, "naive", "short sighted", "racist", "communist", "socialist", "liberal", "conservative", or what have you is often so close to flaming that it takes experts to find a difference. If you wish to express your personal opinion about another persons notion, try to stay away from valuing terms, and try to be as rational as humanly possible - you're treading on thin ice, and <b>insulting the other side by calling it what it is not can't be in your interest</b>.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

spidermonkey · November 2003

Boggle, i find your need for evidence intruiging, because faith is believing without evidence or logical proof. You seem to contradict yourself.

You believers have an answer to everything, it is your overactive imagination that gets the best of you. I will never change your mind, you will never change mine, there simply is no point. Simply, just try to understand the story from both sides:

Message to all believers: there are thousands of religions in this world, you will most likely believe in the one you where raised with, try to understand there are other possibilities, your way does not have to be the right way. Sorry, but sometimes they seem a little "short sighted". Understand, that some people like to believe on the basis of evidence, not faith.

Message to atheists: respect people's beliefs, they can believe whatever they want to believe in, as long as they dont 'hurt' anyone with their beliefs. If religion helps them face life in a better way, fine so be it. Understand some people like to believe on a basis of faith, not evidence.

Each one to its own.

Bogglesteinsky · November 2003

why do i keep asking for evidence? because people ask me for evidence, so we may as well play by the same rules.

Lord_Fanny-MacH · November 2003

Everyone has faith in something. And "spirituality" is everywhere. In a certain sense, everyone has faith in "a God." Abstract the term "God" as much as possible and you begin to hit the fringes of what faith entails. In my opinion, Atheism is probably one of the toughest beliefs to have faith in. You have faith that no higher power exists above you using evidence that is only interpretable through human experience... that's a bit scary, in my opinion. How can you disprove the existence of a higher power using evidence that is only confirmed to be interpretable by human senses, within three-dimensional space and linear time? I'd find it difficult in believing in something like that.

As humans, we have to accept that there a number of things beyond ourselves and beyond our own interpretations, including any sort of evidence that science (which is inherentely limited by human interpretation) can give us. It's how the simplest of faiths--trust and loyalty--works.

Hawkeye · November 2003

We're veering a little off topic here, folks. The debate isn't about whether God exists. We're assuming God exists, but dont' worry, you athiests won't be branded christians for assuming he exists for the sake of this debate. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

TeoH · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Nov 2 2003, 07:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> why do i keep asking for evidence? because people ask me for evidence, so we may as well play by the same rules.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Except since your beliefs are based entirely on faith, you never give any evidence. So how can you ask of it from other people?

On a side note, i'll sleep well at night knowing that what the perfect being truely desires is the existance of <b>Bogglesteinsky</b>

Hawkeye · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 4 2003, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>On a side note, i'll sleep well at night knowing that what the perfect being truely desires is the existance of <b>Bogglesteinsky</b> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Bogglesteinsky · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Nov 4 2003, 05:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Nov 2 2003, 07:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> why do i keep asking for evidence? because people ask me for evidence, so we may as well play by the same rules. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Except since your beliefs are based entirely on faith, you never give any evidence. So how can you ask of it from other people?
 </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Because i have evidence to back up my beliefs, and have produced it when asked for it.

In return, i expect people to provide evidence to back up thier statements and opinions. It is part of the forum rues after all...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
On a side note, i'll sleep well at night knowing that what the perfect being truely desires is the existance of <b>Bogglesteinsky</b></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

And your point is?

Trevelyan · November 2003

Trev's theory on existance #26: When we die, we become a god ourselves... we can create anything we want in an instant. Say you die, you end up in a white room... suddenly, you think, man i wish i were at an asian buffett, suddenly it is created around you... everything you want you can create and manufacture and tweak to your own content, entertaining your "spirit" for all eternity.

Necro · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
You're sort of missing the point. God, by His very nature, is so powerful, so perfect, so set apart from you and me that it is AMAZING that he actually does want any of us to try and mimic Him. He doesn't need us, we need Him, and He offers to fill that need. Something he is in no way required to do.
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

how do we need him?

i sure don't.

Bogglesteinsky · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Trevelyan @ Nov 6 2003, 11:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Trev's theory on existance #26: When we die, we become a god ourselves... we can create anything we want in an instant. Say you die, you end up in a white room... suddenly, you think, man i wish i were at an asian buffett, suddenly it is created around you... everything you want you can create and manufacture and tweak to your own content, entertaining your "spirit" for all eternity.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
and what has that got to do with the topic?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>how do we need him?

i sure don't. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

So you are perfectly happy, nothing could ever get you down, everything you need you can provide for yourself, there is no hole in your life anywhere?

Hawkeye · November 2003

Well if we're talking about "anything you want" in the true sense of the meaning, how can there be a hole there unless that's what you wanted?

TheWizard · November 2003

Do you really think that you can comprehend a being that exists outside of time?

Legionnaired · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 7 2003, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Do you really think that you can comprehend a being that exists outside of time?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Who was this question directed to?

Hawkeye · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 7 2003, 06:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Do you really think that you can comprehend a being that exists outside of time? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I don't know. Can you?

Who knows? I love how people bring up an unanswerable question with the assumption of what the answer is. The assumption is no, we cannot, but how can we answer the question if we don't know what a being that exists outside of time would be like? We have nothing to reference it to. So, the real question should be, can we comprehend what the question means?

It isn't exactly "Is the cat black?" kind of question. For every complex question, there is a set of many simple questions which determine the answer to the complex question. However, some times the set is infinitely recursive and bring on more questions. The answer can never be found without anymore sufficient evidence.

To the lapers, this is a question like "Does God exist?" which does not have an answer with the evidence we know.

uranium_235 · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 7 2003, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Do you really think that you can comprehend a being that exists outside of time? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Is anyone gullible enough to believe in an all-powerful being, and accept these half-assed 'reasons' as to why you can never prove or comprehend his existence, all while completely appalled with the thought that it might have JUST been a fairy tale?

Yeah, I didn't think so either. Guess I was wrong.

Legionnaired · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (uranium - 235 @ Nov 7 2003, 06:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (wizard@psu @ Nov 7 2003, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Do you really think that you can comprehend a being that exists outside of time? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Is anyone gullible enough to believe in an all-powerful being, and accept these half-assed 'reasons' as to why you can never prove or comprehend his existence, all while completely appalled with the thought that it might have JUST been a fairy tale?

Yeah, I didn't think so either. Guess I was wrong.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
The irony found in your avatar is mind-boggling.

Basicly, this is what it boils down to: You have never seen anything that you CAN attribute to the work of God, and I believe that I have. I will never change your mind here, until God first makes himself known to you, and you will never convince me of my beliefs otherwise, because I have seen so many things happen in my life that could not have happened any other way that I have no choice but to believe in God. And, the more that I start praying to Him, the more things happen, the stronger my faith.

We are at an impass. God is real to me, not just an idea that I think and talk about, but a real, powerful being working in my life.

I'm reporting your post, and requesting this thread be locked. As it seems, most religious discussions end up with us Christians being put into a position where any statement we give is a direct challenge to your (non-existant) faith, and yours ours.

This forum is designed for the open exchange of serious ideas and experiences. As long as there is discussion that seriously attempts to destroy the other side's ideas, there will be no such open exchange. And, when dealing with absolute truths, such as the existance or absence of God, then there will be nothing but attempts to change minds.

Hawkeye · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I'm reporting your post, and requesting this thread be locked. As it seems, most religious discussions end up with us Christians being put into a position where any statement we give is a direct challenge to your (non-existant) faith, and yours ours. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Or we could just get back on-topic.

Whenever God comes up, you'll find there will be those that don't believe in God. That's life. You can't hide in a corner and cover your ears. You're right that we shouldn't be talking about this since we should be under the assumption that God exists for the sake of this discussion, but if you're prepared to believe something solely on faith, you should be prepared to face criticism.

That's life.

coil · November 2003

<span style='color:white'>uranium, you're well on your way to a permanent vacation.

<b>To everyone:</b> A prerequisite for discussion within this thread is the assumption that God does, in fact, exist and did, in fact, create the world. If you disagree with that fundamental assumption, kindly remove yourself from the discussion as you cannot possibly add to it.

This thread is not debating the existence of God, so please leave it out.</span>

Jammer · November 2003

<span style='color:white'>... snip.</span>

I'm don't really have much to contribute to the topic that hasn't been said, since its an endless back and forth really. I just figured I'd throw in my 2 cents about religion threads.

<span style='color:white'>I think I just asked people not to debate the existence of God. Well said, but off-topic and too argument-magnetic. Sorry. ^^</span>

Bogglesteinsky · November 2003

let me do my best to drag this back on topic.

God is not some kid playing "The Sims". I dont believe he is simply sitting back and letting everybody get on with their lives. He is constantly at work, sustaining the systems that keep us alive. There is no-one that God will not show himself to at some point in his or her life. It may be on thier death bed, or it may be when they are still young. God is by no means a couch potato. The issue is not "why are we here?" but more, "what are we going to now that we are?"

Hawkeye · November 2003

Well you're suggesting God is hard at work making gravity work and galaxies orbit.

If this is the case, you'd think he'd be able to show miracles like he did in the old and new testaments.
Has something changed since then? Is he no longer able to perform miracles?
If he is able to perform miracles, why does he no longer do them?
Does he just not care?

Seriously, Boggle. You have to ask yourself why he isn't performing miracles as much as he used to. If you say he is doing just as many, I think you are delluding yourself. If a guy walked on water, we'd no doubt have a picture photo and it would be in every newspaper in the world proclaiming "SAVIOR HAS RETURNED!"

So either he's there and not performing miracles as he once did, or he's not there at all. Seeing how we can't assume God doesn't exist, he must be there and not performing miracles. So I ask, why?

Legionnaired · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Nov 8 2003, 11:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Well you're suggesting God is hard at work making gravity work and galaxies orbit.

If this is the case, you'd think he'd be able to show miracles like he did in the old and new testaments.
Has something changed since then? Is he no longer able to perform miracles?
If he is able to perform miracles, why does he no longer do them?
Does he just not care?

Seriously, Boggle. You have to ask yourself why he isn't performing miracles as much as he used to. If you say he is doing just as many, I think you are delluding yourself. If a guy walked on water, we'd no doubt have a picture photo and it would be in every newspaper in the world proclaiming "SAVIOR HAS RETURNED!"

So either he's there and not performing miracles as he once did, or he's not there at all. Seeing how we can't assume God doesn't exist, he must be there and not performing miracles. So I ask, why?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
He is there and not performing miracles, simply because he does not need to anymore to accomplish the salvation of those who would accept Him.

I have seen people pull complete 180s in their thinking, in things coming together at the last second so perfectly that I can no longer take credit for it, and these things, I believe, can be attributed to the workings of the holy spirit. However, people are reached every day for Christ even without the large, sweeping miracles of the Bible. This is not to say that we do not need God, it is merely to say that since he has become so active in the hearts and minds of those who believe in Him, since that has become such a force, he chooses to let that force reach all those who would be reached.

Bogglesteinsky · November 2003

Legionnaired got there before me...

I do have some more things to say though

God works in hearts and minds, not in the world. It is much more subtle thse days. he doesnt need to be all big and overblown. If someone was walking on water, do you think that everybody would immeidately think "Jesus has returned! I have wasted my life and i was completely wrong. I want to live for God."

I doubt it. They would just say. "hasn't science advanced so far these days." Man is too arrogant to work in the way he used to. Call this next part cheap or idiotic, but when jesus came, life was simpler. People believed. when jesus walked on the water, the word technology hadn't even been invented.

It just wouldn't have the same effect.

Hawkeye · November 2003

If I recall, it took quite some convincing to the boat of fishermen that Jesus walked on water to approach that he was the son of God. Things weren't all too different then either.

Maybe the world wouldn't suddenly believe in God, but no doubt many would.

And there is no reason to believe God can no longer focus on miracles AND win the hearts and minds of nonbelievers everywhere. God is all-powerful. If he wanted to do miracles, he could.

Legionnaired · November 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Nov 8 2003, 02:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Maybe the world wouldn't suddenly believe in God, but no doubt many would.

And there is no reason to believe God can no longer focus on miracles AND win the hearts and minds of nonbelievers everywhere. God is all-powerful. If he wanted to do miracles, he could.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
But, aparently, He doesn't want to, and everyone that would not simply dismiss him outright will, in the end, be presented with Him.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>If I recall, it took quite some convincing to the boat of fishermen that Jesus walked on water to approach that he was the son of God. Things weren't all too different then either.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Many of them did in fact believe and follow him from the start. Their faith wavered at times, as does for most people, but they did believe.

Island_Savage · November 2003

I do enjoy a good debate, but on such topics in which one must assume anything, and if one does assume that god exists, as the first few replies would suggest, we are limited in this forum and in person by the communication of words, and visual empathy.

God, The Couch Potato?

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