Armor Or Weapon Upgrades First?
Stoneburg
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
<div class="IPBDescription">There really is a right answer</div> I do not subscribe to the idea that going Wep1 before Arm1 is a matter of 'preference' or "depends on your Marines". Armor level 1 simply is a lot better simply because 95% of the damage dealt to Marines early game is by skulks biting you, you effectively increase your life by 50%. You can take an extra bite.
This makes a <b>huge</b> difference. Being a rather mediocre skulk, even I don't have trouble taking out Marines with no armor upgrades. Once armor is upgraded, my kill ratio drops <b>drastically</b>. As Com I know how Marines drop like flies once the skulks get close, until the upgrade is done, which is why most of the time I start researching it as teh Marines are leaving base for the first time.
There are two arguments that the people who prefer weapons first use:
1. If the Marines are good they kill the skulks before they get close, and do so even more effectively with weapon upgrades. This is only true in theory, and even in theory it's not even very impressive. Weapins level 1 means it takes <b>one</b> bullet less to kill a skulk. 10 instead of eleven LMG bullets to kill one without carapace, 15 instead of 16 to kill one with. This is a <b>miniscule</b> difference compared to the factual increase in life expectancy given by armor upgrade.
You also need to realise that "killing the skulk before he gets close" is not always a realistic option. If you're entering a room, there might be a skulk around the corner, effectively close enough to bite before you can even theoretically fire 10 shots. Lots of areas on lots of maps have places where you can not even in theory fire 10 rounds before the skulk is up close and personal with you. If multiple skulks are attacking you, even with an aimbot you can't always keep them from arriving at your ankles, simply because it takes time to fire the shots.
2. It makes turrets more effective. This is just false. Weapon upgrades simply have no effect on turrets, try it yourself in game if you don't believe it.
Even the absolutely most amazing shooters I have played with prefer armor first. In fact, many players assume that the com is a complete nublet if he starts researching weapons. I've seen coms go for weapons 3 before armor one, which invariably ends up with a lot of dead Marines and happy skulks, not to mention Lerks becuase armor also protects against spores (at lvl 2 you live about 20% longer, at level 3 almost twice as long).
Many things are preference in NS. You may want to get MT before any upgrades, that's fine. You may prefer to hand out shotguns instead of HMG's, fine. You might like JP's better then HA, that's your choice but <b>please</b> realise that Armor 1 <b>is</b> simply the only choice to make when you're looking towards the armslab for your first upgrade.
(If I can only change one persons mind....)
This makes a <b>huge</b> difference. Being a rather mediocre skulk, even I don't have trouble taking out Marines with no armor upgrades. Once armor is upgraded, my kill ratio drops <b>drastically</b>. As Com I know how Marines drop like flies once the skulks get close, until the upgrade is done, which is why most of the time I start researching it as teh Marines are leaving base for the first time.
There are two arguments that the people who prefer weapons first use:
1. If the Marines are good they kill the skulks before they get close, and do so even more effectively with weapon upgrades. This is only true in theory, and even in theory it's not even very impressive. Weapins level 1 means it takes <b>one</b> bullet less to kill a skulk. 10 instead of eleven LMG bullets to kill one without carapace, 15 instead of 16 to kill one with. This is a <b>miniscule</b> difference compared to the factual increase in life expectancy given by armor upgrade.
You also need to realise that "killing the skulk before he gets close" is not always a realistic option. If you're entering a room, there might be a skulk around the corner, effectively close enough to bite before you can even theoretically fire 10 shots. Lots of areas on lots of maps have places where you can not even in theory fire 10 rounds before the skulk is up close and personal with you. If multiple skulks are attacking you, even with an aimbot you can't always keep them from arriving at your ankles, simply because it takes time to fire the shots.
2. It makes turrets more effective. This is just false. Weapon upgrades simply have no effect on turrets, try it yourself in game if you don't believe it.
Even the absolutely most amazing shooters I have played with prefer armor first. In fact, many players assume that the com is a complete nublet if he starts researching weapons. I've seen coms go for weapons 3 before armor one, which invariably ends up with a lot of dead Marines and happy skulks, not to mention Lerks becuase armor also protects against spores (at lvl 2 you live about 20% longer, at level 3 almost twice as long).
Many things are preference in NS. You may want to get MT before any upgrades, that's fine. You may prefer to hand out shotguns instead of HMG's, fine. You might like JP's better then HA, that's your choice but <b>please</b> realise that Armor 1 <b>is</b> simply the only choice to make when you're looking towards the armslab for your first upgrade.
(If I can only change one persons mind....)
Comments
the only time i will go weapons before armour is if theres already a fade on the scene and i will take marines to weap 2 before getting armour 1 but even then normally id still go armour 1 first.
My german rines tend to leave base unguarded and run away ramboing a start of the game (they force me to dropp a ip,just to give me time to locate the hive). And they need Au1 after Wu2. I never saw on same skilled teams that the kill ratio is on one team higher, but rines can dance with the first fade
A skulk who kills 6-7 rines is able to fade.ca 5 min line. Most comms only can afford 2 upgrades by there.
50% > 10%
Heh, anyway, I agree. Armor 1 all the way. Weapon 1 first maybe if you're going for really early shotties for everyone without rushing.
it's a fast upgrade that makes the skulks land one more bite, which comes in handy
then weapons 1,2,3
Lets make a commfight.
14 guys whith equal skills(prefear to mixed teamsengl/ger .Alienteam is always the same, only the two comms change their roles.One goes for Au other for Wu.
And you´ll end up in a answer like "Comm unikation is the key"
In the early game, when marines are cabable of dominating by virtue of ranged attacks, weapons 1 can make a significant difference, enough to preven the marines from getting hit much at all, and not giving the armor much use. The overwhelming benefits only last a few minutes (until the kharaa can get upgrades well established, basically), so if you're going to get weapons first, put the preasure on!
But yes, unless you have a particularly aggressive very early game strat you want to accomplish, armor 1 is better.
I agree about the range attacks, but if you have the situation where you can attack them at a range for even a few seconds, you won't need the weapons upgrade. If you can't get them at that distance without weapons 1 anyway, you'll definately need that extra bite when they get close.
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Really? I was sure they did. Even if they do, that would still be a weak argument, since you shouldn't have that many turrets early in the game before you have several upgrades.
The marine, obviously, is a ranged unit. This means that while defensive upgades only apply for each individual unit, offensive upgrades help the whole squad out.
What I mean is this-
say for argument's sake we put 1 skulk against 3 marines. If they all get Au, granted, they will take longer to be killed, assuming the skulk gets in close. However, with Wu, not only is each marines effectiveness increased, the effectiveness is <i>stacked</i>. This means that a 10 percent upgrade for each marine is really a 30 percent upgrade.
Since NS is so similar to starcraft, and im sure a lot of you play SC, ill use this example:
As Terran, say v zerg- do you get armor 1 or weapons 1 first? On one hand, armor 1 does an enormous amount of good- eg sunkens require 3 hits on the marine, not 2; same with Lurks etc.
However, armor one helps the whole squad. If a group of 5 marines are fighting 6 lings, 1 weapon upgrade will bring the total squad damage to 35 instead of 30 per shot. This means that they can take down one ling per shot, and decreases the chance of the lings even getting to the marines to attack....
just think about this ...
In the early game, when marines are cabable of dominating by virtue of ranged attacks, weapons 1 can make a significant difference, enough to preven the marines from getting hit much at all, and not giving the armor much use. The overwhelming benefits only last a few minutes (until the kharaa can get upgrades well established, basically), so if you're going to get weapons first, put the preasure on!
But yes, unless you have a particularly aggressive very early game strat you want to accomplish, armor 1 is better. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was waiting for this type of argument, that basically says weapons 1 is better because it's "situational".
Let me be the first to tell you: WRONG!
In this case, it's only simple math which will prove that armor 1 is better.
The reason? 1 bullet less to kill a skulk, versus 1 more bite to kill you...
The fact is, that in the time it takes to bite you, you can easily get out 3-5 bullets.
So not only is it a defensive upgrade, but as the saying goes, "the best offense is a good defense". And it's true. You actually deal more damage with lv. 1 armor in a 1v1 fight. By living longer, you can deal more damage.
In the early game, when marines are cabable of dominating by virtue of ranged attacks, weapons 1 can make a significant difference, enough to preven the marines from getting hit much at all, and not giving the armor much use. The overwhelming benefits only last a few minutes (until the kharaa can get upgrades well established, basically), so if you're going to get weapons first, put the preasure on!
But yes, unless you have a particularly aggressive very early game strat you want to accomplish, armor 1 is better. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was waiting for this type of argument, that basically says weapons 1 is better because it's "situational".
Let me be the first to tell you: WRONG!
In this case, it's only simple math which will prove that armor 1 is better.
The reason? 1 bullet less to kill a skulk, versus 1 more bite to kill you...
The fact is, that in the time it takes to bite you, you can easily get out 3-5 bullets.
So not only is it a defensive upgrade, but as the saying goes, "the best offense is a good defense". And it's true. You actually deal more damage with lv. 1 armor in a 1v1 fight. By living longer, you can deal more damage. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That math is faulty because it is oversimplified. Mine is also slightly oversimplified, but takes into effect more issues.
1) once the skulk gets close enough to bite you, it becomes incredibly hard to hit. Killing the skulk from far away (which weapons ups help with) before they close the distance eliminates this issue.
2) medpacks: the difference between weapons 1 and armor 1 is basically that the skulk will actually get in biting range more often with armor 1, but you are likely to still survive. That means using more medpacks (and bullets, but that cost is marginal), which means spending more res. Getting weapons 1 first will partially pay for armor 1, if you use it like I said in my earlier post.
Oh, and forlorn, I'm on your side <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> I just find fault with some of the specifics. Armor-first-always is about 98% accurate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2. It makes turrets more effective. This is just false. Weapon upgrades simply have no effect on turrets, try it yourself in game if you don't believe it.
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Really? I was sure they did. Even if they do, that would still be a weak argument, since you shouldn't have that many turrets early in the game before you have several upgrades.
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This used to be true, but it was removed in 2.0.
LVL1 weapons LVL 2 weapons then LVL armour - then the lvl 3's
depends how much res i have
make two armours then i can upgrades both things at a time <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
especially if the map is mineshaft. there are so many places to hide, its ridiculous. its almost granted that you will take 1 bite right off the bat. thats when a1 is most useful.
but for maps like eclipse, which is clean and devoid (for the most part) of hiding spots, there really isn't too much to worry about ambushes.
lvl 1 does take a little time to research... My only real reason to get lvl 1 wep over lvl 1 armour would be if i was going to rely on turrets to keep a base running.
Yesterday i commanded a game on Mineshaft. I probably had the better team skillwise but not by much.
I had two hives locked down early with minimal defenses and rt. The upgrades were going to come slowly. I got second ip or and thought about the third but didn't get it. Instead starting the wep upgrades. 1 wep then 1 arm. Only because i need those turrets to be functioning to scare away skulks. Take chunks out of fades. I know that the difference then between the two upgrades was long. Probably a minute before i started armour. So my choice made a difference.
Stongburg i think your arguement about the wep upgrades not affecting the turrets is wrong *not totally sure but nearly positive*. But i'm sure that lvl 3 turrets kicks my arse with carspace and i can barely take down a turret down half it's hp, while lvl 0 turrets do jack. I can take down three by myself before i die.
Normally armour preferences over wep for me. But this special case is one in which i'd choose wep over armour.
- lvl3 weapon and u countered carapace
- lvl3 armor and u can get 100% more dmg (evry upgrd = 2 lerk spikes)
u can normally kill 1 skulk with one sort of ups means
- skulk died after puting 1 bite in rine* rine a 50 health needs medpack
- skulk pushin 2 bites *rine a ca 60 health and low armor, needs medpack and a welding to get back his armorupgrades
Gorg vs
- Marine sees gorg, he kills him with lmg and get 1(2) med from comm
- Marine emtys clips and switch to knife, gorg with regen <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> 6 medpacks and an incomming skulk
Fade vs (u tend to dropp shottis then ehh ?)
- 3bursts and dead or 2 rines
- 6bursts and a dancing fade who trys to attack when u reload
Onos vs (preferd weapon is teamwork or 2 higher weapons)
- Onos cant get in unless Stomp/HealingGorg+Lerk
- Onos can devour ur has, and 4 bites vs rines with waterpistols *ROAARR*
the thread was about armor 1 as 1st upgrade, not armor upgrades > gun upgrades
armor1 upgrade pays off in the early game, when your marines survive skulk ambushes
you get armor1 first and then you tech to guns3 usually
when fades appear you will have 1 or 2 gun upgrades, and the armor1 too
<snip>
Stongburg i think your arguement about the wep upgrades not affecting the turrets is wrong *not totally sure but nearly positive*. But i'm sure that lvl 3 turrets kicks my arse with carspace and i can barely take down a turret down half it's hp, while lvl 0 turrets do jack. I can take down three by myself before i die.
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If you think I am wrong, why don't you *test* it. Test it, come back here, then tell me if you still think I am wrong.
The whole "If we get weapons upgrades they cant get to us before we kill them" is just stupid. It means it takes *one* bloody bullet less, that is *not* going to keep the skulk away in 99% of the cases. The difference is 11 bullets to 10 bullets, no more.
Against Fades? NOt only are you way behind if you don't have at least 2-3 upgrades when the first fade appears, but here too armor 1 would be better then weapons 1. Actually, Com's going weapons first is a surefire way get early Fades since RFK is plentiful.
And armor 1 pays for itself brilliantly. In 1.04 it wouldn't have mattered that much but now it does. Why? Because armor1 is the single most effective upgrade for the real combat situations. Marines will stop dying as much, meaning you accomplish stuff like actually building the RT instead of recycling it, and the aliens are deprived of RFK at the same time as you get them. Weapons 1 (I feel like I have said this before...) takes ONE bullet less to kill skulks with. The increase in revenue is not very big.
I agree then that armour is, without special situations, always more efficient.
Sorry for the doubt, but u provided no evidence on the turrets statement so i queried it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->