<!--QuoteBegin--TempDeleteMe+Oct 22 2003, 03:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TempDeleteMe @ Oct 22 2003, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Compare a 5 vs 5 player game to a 12 vs. 12 player game. Interesting, most pubs have at LEAST around 10 players on each team.
Blah blah blah blah blah etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Funny, I remember the playtest server handling over 18 people.
So how about 3v3 games that happen often in pubs??
And of course the PTs heavily influence Flay's decisions on what to do with the game. Would you expect Flay to identify all the balance problems by himself? If the PTs don't tell him something it over/underpowered, nothing's going to happen to it.
2) Gamesoft's product, 'Blaster' is ready for alpha testing. They're actively modifying it to cover huge holes and fix memory leaks, etc. The game isn't even totally finished at this point. Consider this Flayra's personal testing build.
3) Gamesoft fxies everything up, makes it nice and pretty. Now for internal beta. Blaster is tested with a small, select group of players, probably from their own company. Either way, it's tightly tested with a small group. This is for solving more bugs, and fixing major imbalances. I think of this as PT / Vet testing.
4) Now Gamesoft throws Blaster into open beta. This doens't mean EVERYONE is accepted to test. This just means that RANDOM PEOPLE FROM THE PUBLIC, and a great many of them, are chosen to come test. <b>THESE</b> are the people that usually decide the balance of the game. Instead, FLayra decided to combine open beta and closed beta into one horribly biased testing phase.
5) Now Gamesoft can release Blaster, or they can allow a brief OPEN PUBLIC BETA where everyone can play for a while.
I know... I'm not blaming you guys =3 I said it was an ill-conceived move on the NS team part. Try to ignore the flak (though admittedly there seems to be a lot o.O ) and you might see some genuine points hidden amongst the flames ^^
<!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Oct 22 2003, 02:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Oct 22 2003, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [Added because several posts have popped up: We did not balance 2.0 Flay did. BTW, the test server WAS 11 v 11. We played like that all the time.] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And it never occured to you that in a game like that, marines for some reason only needed 3 res nodes to win? That in small games aliens could go onos at 4 minutes from just a handful of res nodes?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is most likely why we have a fade that's impotent in the hands of an unskilled player<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skill. It is something that makes one shine among the rest... In CS you needed some to get a positive k:d ratio. But of course in NS, we shouldn't put anything that requires any skill into the game. here why dont we put a aimbot into the game also.... As players get familiar with the alien races, im sure they will get good, go practice your fade game and perhaps youll become proficient.
<!--QuoteBegin--Sither+Oct 22 2003, 02:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sither @ Oct 22 2003, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is most likely why we have a fade that's impotent in the hands of an unskilled player<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skill. It is something that makes one shine among the rest... In CS you needed some to get a positive k:d ratio. But of course in NS, we shouldn't put anything that requires any skill into the game. here why dont we put a aimbot into the game also.... As players get familiar with the alien races, im sure they will get good, go practice your fade game and perhaps youll become proficient. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I say this, and I know DAMN well CWAG will agree: the fade is unbalanced no matter how you slice it.
In unskilled hands, the fade is a complete and utter waste of time.
In decent hands vs. skilled marines, the fade will die in seconds.
In skilled hands vs. decent marines, the fade will do well.
In proficient hands vs. decent marines, the fade can end the game by himself.
And for something like the fade, there generally is no middle ground. You're either great with it and kill marines by the dozens, or you're not.
Anyway, I'm stopping on this topic FOR NOW. However, I have noticed a large number of anti-vet program posts have been popping up. Hopefully it'll remove this terribly flawed program and reduce vets to what they SHOULD be: Bug testers. I agree that they need a small group to release client patches to. It'd be a nightmare to release those to the public. But making your bug finders the same group that tests balance... no no no no no.
<!--QuoteBegin--TempDeleteMe+Oct 22 2003, 02:54 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TempDeleteMe @ Oct 22 2003, 02:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Sither+Oct 22 2003, 02:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sither @ Oct 22 2003, 02:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This is most likely why we have a fade that's impotent in the hands of an unskilled player<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Skill. It is something that makes one shine among the rest... In CS you needed some to get a positive k:d ratio. But of course in NS, we shouldn't put anything that requires any skill into the game. here why dont we put a aimbot into the game also.... As players get familiar with the alien races, im sure they will get good, go practice your fade game and perhaps youll become proficient. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I say this, and I know DAMN well CWAG will agree: the fade is unbalanced no matter how you slice it.
In unskilled hands, the fade is a complete and utter waste of time.
In decent hands vs. skilled marines, the fade will die in seconds.
In skilled hands vs. decent marines, the fade will do well.
In proficient hands vs. decent marines, the fade can end the game by himself.
And for something like the fade, there generally is no middle ground. You're either great with it and kill marines by the dozens, or you're not.
Anyway, I'm stopping on this topic FOR NOW. However, I have noticed a large number of anti-vet program posts have been popping up. Hopefully it'll remove this terribly flawed program and reduce vets to what they SHOULD be: Bug testers. I agree that they need a small group to release client patches to. It'd be a nightmare to release those to the public. But making your bug finders the same group that tests balance... no no no no no.
<b>iViva la revolution!</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A little over a minute and a regen fade can destroy the comm chair. So, yes the fade is imbalanced partly.
<!--QuoteBegin--TempDeleteMe+Oct 22 2003, 07:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TempDeleteMe @ Oct 22 2003, 07:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Frikk+Oct 22 2003, 02:47 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Frikk @ Oct 22 2003, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [Added because several posts have popped up: We did not balance 2.0 Flay did. BTW, the test server WAS 11 v 11. We played like that all the time.] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And it never occured to you that in a game like that, marines for some reason only needed 3 res nodes to win? That in small games aliens could go onos at 4 minutes from just a handful of res nodes? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, yes. We mentioned that several times. Would you like me to go find proof, or can you just take my word?
On that note, I will sum up this with the last of the deletions of the flames, and with a closure of the thread.
It seems a good deal of you guys want a scapegoat for imbalance, found in the vets. The vets didn't balance the game, they played it, just like the playtesters and just like the pts, and ultimately on release, just like the public. Flayra balanced the game. I'm assuming this was done by suggestions from both the public and private playing parties as well as trends of complaints he has seen. (I have to say the fade complaint was on the beta forums a month before I ever saw it on the public forums. Ironically, it was vets who complained about it first.) I can't say Flayra's judgement on anything is concrete or even final, as I am not him, none of you are him, and none of the pts or vets are him. If you have a complaint with a balance issue, come up with a solution, not another "blame the vets" topic.
This topic started out a debate on open and closed betas and ended up as the typical "flame the vet program" thread. I'm sure a good deal of the hatemongers seem to think we've yet to fill our quota on these, but I respectfully disagree. Therefore, I am going to go ahead and close this as it's obvious we have quit being productive and have degenerated into flame upon flame. If you think you can be civil, pm me and I'll be more willing to open it up.
Comments
Blah blah blah blah blah etc. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I remember the playtest server handling over 18 people.
And of course the PTs heavily influence Flay's decisions on what to do with the game. Would you expect Flay to identify all the balance problems by himself? If the PTs don't tell him something it over/underpowered, nothing's going to happen to it.
1) Company 'Gamesoft' makes a game.
2) Gamesoft's product, 'Blaster' is ready for alpha testing. They're actively modifying it to cover huge holes and fix memory leaks, etc. The game isn't even totally finished at this point. Consider this Flayra's personal testing build.
3) Gamesoft fxies everything up, makes it nice and pretty. Now for internal beta. Blaster is tested with a small, select group of players, probably from their own company. Either way, it's tightly tested with a small group. This is for solving more bugs, and fixing major imbalances. I think of this as PT / Vet testing.
4) Now Gamesoft throws Blaster into open beta. This doens't mean EVERYONE is accepted to test. This just means that RANDOM PEOPLE FROM THE PUBLIC, and a great many of them, are chosen to come test. <b>THESE</b> are the people that usually decide the balance of the game. Instead, FLayra decided to combine open beta and closed beta into one horribly biased testing phase.
5) Now Gamesoft can release Blaster, or they can allow a brief OPEN PUBLIC BETA where everyone can play for a while.
I said it was an ill-conceived move on the NS team part. Try to ignore the flak (though admittedly there seems to be a lot o.O ) and you might see some genuine points hidden amongst the flames ^^
And it never occured to you that in a game like that, marines for some reason only needed 3 res nodes to win? That in small games aliens could go onos at 4 minutes from just a handful of res nodes?
Skill. It is something that makes one shine among the rest... In CS you needed some to get a positive k:d ratio. But of course in NS, we shouldn't put anything that requires any skill into the game. here why dont we put a aimbot into the game also.... As players get familiar with the alien races, im sure they will get good, go practice your fade game and perhaps youll become proficient.
Skill. It is something that makes one shine among the rest... In CS you needed some to get a positive k:d ratio. But of course in NS, we shouldn't put anything that requires any skill into the game. here why dont we put a aimbot into the game also.... As players get familiar with the alien races, im sure they will get good, go practice your fade game and perhaps youll become proficient. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say this, and I know DAMN well CWAG will agree: the fade is unbalanced no matter how you slice it.
In unskilled hands, the fade is a complete and utter waste of time.
In decent hands vs. skilled marines, the fade will die in seconds.
In skilled hands vs. decent marines, the fade will do well.
In proficient hands vs. decent marines, the fade can end the game by himself.
And for something like the fade, there generally is no middle ground. You're either great with it and kill marines by the dozens, or you're not.
Anyway, I'm stopping on this topic FOR NOW. However, I have noticed a large number of anti-vet program posts have been popping up. Hopefully it'll remove this terribly flawed program and reduce vets to what they SHOULD be: Bug testers. I agree that they need a small group to release client patches to. It'd be a nightmare to release those to the public. But making your bug finders the same group that tests balance... no no no no no.
<b>iViva la revolution!</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So...don't post. You can't keep avoiding something that has problems.
Skill. It is something that makes one shine among the rest... In CS you needed some to get a positive k:d ratio. But of course in NS, we shouldn't put anything that requires any skill into the game. here why dont we put a aimbot into the game also.... As players get familiar with the alien races, im sure they will get good, go practice your fade game and perhaps youll become proficient. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I say this, and I know DAMN well CWAG will agree: the fade is unbalanced no matter how you slice it.
In unskilled hands, the fade is a complete and utter waste of time.
In decent hands vs. skilled marines, the fade will die in seconds.
In skilled hands vs. decent marines, the fade will do well.
In proficient hands vs. decent marines, the fade can end the game by himself.
And for something like the fade, there generally is no middle ground. You're either great with it and kill marines by the dozens, or you're not.
Anyway, I'm stopping on this topic FOR NOW. However, I have noticed a large number of anti-vet program posts have been popping up. Hopefully it'll remove this terribly flawed program and reduce vets to what they SHOULD be: Bug testers. I agree that they need a small group to release client patches to. It'd be a nightmare to release those to the public. But making your bug finders the same group that tests balance... no no no no no.
<b>iViva la revolution!</b> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A little over a minute and a regen fade can destroy the comm chair. So, yes the fade is imbalanced partly.
And it never occured to you that in a game like that, marines for some reason only needed 3 res nodes to win? That in small games aliens could go onos at 4 minutes from just a handful of res nodes? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, yes. We mentioned that several times. Would you like me to go find proof, or can you just take my word?
It seems a good deal of you guys want a scapegoat for imbalance, found in the vets. The vets didn't balance the game, they played it, just like the playtesters and just like the pts, and ultimately on release, just like the public.
Flayra balanced the game. I'm assuming this was done by suggestions from both the public and private playing parties as well as trends of complaints he has seen. (I have to say the fade complaint was on the beta forums a month before I ever saw it on the public forums. Ironically, it was vets who complained about it first.)
I can't say Flayra's judgement on anything is concrete or even final, as I am not him, none of you are him, and none of the pts or vets are him. If you have a complaint with a balance issue, come up with a solution, not another "blame the vets" topic.
This topic started out a debate on open and closed betas and ended up as the typical "flame the vet program" thread. I'm sure a good deal of the hatemongers seem to think we've yet to fill our quota on these, but I respectfully disagree. Therefore, I am going to go ahead and close this as it's obvious we have quit being productive and have degenerated into flame upon flame. If you think you can be civil, pm me and I'll be more willing to open it up.