<!--QuoteBegin--[SiD]Squishy+Oct 18 2003, 08:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ Oct 18 2003, 08:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok im going out the door but one last one. Seph I don't think most clanners do but maybe some do yes. You succesfully argued your point good for you. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, a condescending tone. Like that wasn't at all expected. Now all we need is a few insults thrown in.
<b>edit:</b> I did a huge post thingy, but lets face it I'm wasting my time trying to convince you. You convienently forget things i bring up, flaunt your own opinion calling it fact (not even logic here, you call it actual fact) and you'll never take anything I say in that escapes your selective memory anyways. I'd have more chance converting someone to a different religion than using a well-thought arguement successfully against you, jees... you're like one of my RPG-Ex's o.O
If clanners are arrogant, than pubbers are ignorant.
Gem, the orginal topic of this thread was why don't all the know it all pubbers (such as yourself) go join a clan, and test their knowledge of the game?
To this post, not one of you guys have come up with a good reason as to why they just don't put their pubbing time aside and try out a new way to play the same game, except in a (much) more organized and (and much more) effecient manner.
Instead, this thread has degenerated into why BlueSquishy is an arrogant fool, which is believe it or not is off topic, which is against the forum rules.
So basically, just JOIN a clan, and see for yourself what the fuss is about. And if you aren't 100% sure if you want to join a clan, then the other point that was made was to go join www.nsdraft.com, and get a smaller taste of the real thing and decide if clanplay is for you.
uh... I think we did; because we don't want to be in a clan. After which some people said they weren't good enough reasons to which more replies were given. It only really degenerated when blue jumped in saying 'pubber=nubber', remember? =P
Wouldn't logic dictate if we had even the slightest inclination of joining a clan for any reason we would've done it by now? I'm not being offensive here but a number of people who aren't in clans don't want to play 'efficient' games, they prefer fun games. You might find efficiency a word to put in your fun basket but for a lot of people that just sounds like work; ie something games shouldn't be.
Efficiency is fun. Winning is fun. Having fun is playing the game to it's fullest.
The only reason you have given to not join a clan was that clans are bad, which you go on to site examples out of different games... whatever, you kill your argument just by that. It's sheer ignorance.
If you believe that ignorance is bliss, then so be it, but really, if you don't, give a good reason as to not join a clan. If you are just going to give a half-thought out answer, then don't even bother giving one in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin--D/|rk+Oct 18 2003, 07:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (D/|rk @ Oct 18 2003, 07:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The main problem with clans, to me at least, is how seriously they take this GAME. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Some people play sports for the fun of playing it, some play sports for the fun of winning. Same with NS.
I sited examples out of different games? where? o.O ~hunts down the gem imposter making these invisible posts~ The only game example I've seen was CS and that was by squishy.
Efficiency isn't fun <b>for me</b>, Winning isn't everything, having fun is playing the game to it's fullest. Just because you don't seem to realise people are different and don't necessarily have a carbon copy set of your values, emotions and stances doesn't mean you have a point. When I said my little short sentence ditty you'll notice that I applied them to myself and myself only.
I've made enough posts in this thread to show the annoying inaccurate summary of "The only reason you have given to not join a clan was that clans are bad" is blatantly off the mark. I've mentioned along with others my reasons and then spent the rest of my time arguing with you and squishy. I don't think clans are bad; I think they're unnessary ( for me at least).
To be honest your misinterpretation, lack of understanding and the fact you mysteriously dropped out without answering some of my akward points comparing clan to public regular matches kills <u>your</u> arguement, while mine still stands quite happily. Unlike yourself I think I've fully thought out my posts so please don't try and be a clever clogs by throwing mud, especially from your own feet ^^
Seeing as you're so infinitely more experienced than myself in this heavenly land of NS clanning experience, perhaps you can be a good boy and answer the hanging questions left back there asked by myself, smokenova and others huh? Show us ignorant peons the light of your leet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>edit:</b> just shoved in a small clarification =3
<b>edit 2:</b> Rennex's post kinda hit the mark I was getting at in the 2nd paragraph =P
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 18 2003, 11:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 18 2003, 11:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I sited examples out of different games? where? o.O ~hunts down the gem imposter making these invisible posts~ The only game example I've seen was CS and that was by squishy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow, look at the invisible post citing past experiences with clans and why they aren't for you:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been through the clan scene on several games through several years, I'm not exactly as niave as you seem to think public players are and I'm sure in this thread that the public players with my kind of experience behind them are the rule rather than the exception <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And like I've said, anyone should try clan in a game of NS to get a true feel for NS itself.
Some of your other comments I found equililly hilarious in this thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I really hate to break this to you but NS, while interesting and diverse, isn't a massively deep mass of complexity beyond the depths of normal human understanding. You're not possessed of any greater knowledge nor amazing experience than the average regular; in other words please get over yourself =P<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, Squishy would possess more experience than the 'average regular', simply because he's been in competetive play, and probably in a lot of them. The idea that clanner's possess just as much knowledge as the average pubber is incredibly ignorant. Why do you think Flay made a thing called the "Veteran" program? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering how much you guys are saying the clan scene is dying I would've thought that you'd have little chance of playing against 'tons of different opponents' unless you play in pubs and teamstack<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because the clan scene is dying (to an extent) doesn't mean that clanners have never played a lot of games with other clans in the first place. This is also another ignorant statement you have made; I'm sure Squishy has played many clans who are now dead. Teamstacking in pubs doesn't really count, as pubbers aren't opponents; they are there simply to play a game they can win, and maybe have some fun in the process. Clanstacking against pubs will always be in the clans favor because the clan knows exactly what it's doing, whereas the pubbers do not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clan players are all "OMG NO!!! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE DARK SECRETS ~does free-masons dance~ WE'RE LIKE SO DIFFERENT!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mock it all you like, but essentially this quote is true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->LOL! I back up my statements with logic and then you post your opinions backed with more of your opinions telling me I don't back mine up XD<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't back up your statements.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like I said, I've got a large list of personal reasons for not enjoying the clan scene. I'm just using the material needed to beat off people trying to make themselves feel worth more than they are <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said where? Oh yes, you don't like other clans because of other experiences in other games. Now I remember.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fun part is, this is pretty much textbook psychology; small groups who are selective about their initiates suddenly gain 'elite' status in most people's minds. They might not do anything except wear a badge but when people find out not just anybody can get in everyone wants in to give themselves a feeling of self validation <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no such thing for NS. Anyone can join a clan.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Congrats on being in the highest ranking clan and all that fire but lets just put it this way; the minute you claimed or hinted to be the best is the minute you removed any possibility of it being the truth from my mind <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More ignorance. You were talking about sYn; at one point they were indeed the clan to beat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But for the people that have the time and say you'd rather play with regs... Why not just... get those regs together and do a few scrims? Have pre-assigned rules, work out a strategy for the map. It seems obvious to me that when you're playing with a plan, you'll have better teamwork. I'm "alien commander" for [GoM] - what I say gets done. That situation isn't even possible on a pub. And I like pubbing, I do it all the time. But NS is a teamplay mod, and you'll get the most coordinated teamplay in a clan. If you've never tried it, it seems worth it to me to get a bunch of people you're friends with and play together. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was made by Kavasa; never once did you reply to him on this paragraph, however you did reply this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol, don't worry kasava, I know what I mean and I know what you mean and we don't mean the same thing <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you were only adressing one comment:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No really, sYn was the best. As he says, you needn't take his word for it - you can take Flayra's or mine or any of a number of other people. sYn once played what was acknowledged to be the top European clan in 1.03 and got the 4-0 win, two halves on an American server and two halves on a European server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How bout I make this easier. All pubbers are nubbers. see the relation? Pubber=nubber. You know nothing about the game or the true game mechanics. It's designed for teamwork which you cannot get in pubs. CANNOT there is no well if we had good players or some such dn does not recruit alot of good players who wanna join just because we have to have teamwork. Were only now really getting it togethor and we've had the same core 8 for like 10 months. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was said by Squishy, and although it was... lacking in the english department, I would say that for the most part it's true and a slap in the face to reality for pubbers, clan play is 100% different than pub play. Why do all clanners say this? Is it because we have a complusive need to feel "elite"? No, it's because we were all the nubber at one point who learned that clan play is completely different and it has changed the game for us all. So really, I fail to see the signifigance of calling him arrogant; he is simply stating a fact. For proof of the fact that clanners think fundamentally different of the game we call NS versus pubbers:
- Why do all clanners use DC #1, MC #2, and SC #3? - Why do you barely see MT? - Why do you see JP before HA? - Why do you see completely different tatics?
Really, the fact that games are 100% different doesn't clue you in to something?
While you could argue that NS clan play isn't that great because it is lacking right now, this is simply the 1.04 junkies which have decided the new 2.xx isn't for them, and now the 2.xx junkies are simply trying to jumpstart the clan community again. If you don't want to give a reason not to join a clan (or try one out, or sign up for NSD), then please, without further ado, tell us why. The reason most clanners would like to know is because in the long run we could help to solve the problem of why more people aren't signing up. We are trying to adress the problem of there being a lack of clanners, if you couldn't tell by the topic, which asks why don't pubbers join up with clans if they think they know the game.
Instead of getting real intelligent answers, instead for the most part Squishy gets bombarded by ignorant, baised remarks of why clanning is so dumb, time consuming, etc., and again, Squishy carefully points out that "Hey, that's not true because..." and to this people become offended by his "arrogance". Arrogance is nothing more than just being and idoit in the clan scene, and is customary for many clanners to do... they aren't arrogant because they feel the need to be better, but because they think it's fun to be arrogant. Try to lighten up; if you had joined the clan community, you would know what I'm talking about. Some clanners act arrogant simply because they can be; it's a game, it's all online, we are here to have fun not exchange formalities.
Anyhow, while you haven't really stating why you would never want to get invovled with competetive play (other than for personal reasons), most of your comments are off-based, ignorant, and for the most part, wrong.
Sorry I just have to wade in here and clarify something.
My own quote, I said it, but I'm adding better emphasis. With italics, because caps looks like shouting.
"Additionally, people are pushing this "clanners aren't arrogant" thing, and I suppose <i>in your own minds you're not</i>, but saying things like "you don't understand NS till you're in a clan" IS arrogance - sheer unrefined arrogance. I see the pub-inclined people here saying "well you like clanning, so thats good for you, we prefer this" and then from the other side "you don't know what you're talking about, clan play is so much better".
See the difference in outlook?"
IMHO what the clanners are saying makes sense to them, it sounds normal to them, but to use pubbers, it sounds like arrogance. Now, at the same time, what we're saying is normal to us, that its different strokes for different folks, and I was trying to point out how the pubbers seem to have an easy going approach to gaming, but their hackles go up when clanners come on and say we have no idea of how NS should be played.
Now, if someone walked up to you, and said you had no idea of how to walk, and that they were in a band, and had learned to walk in formation and thus knew more than you did, what would YOU think about them?
I have nothing against clanners - at the core we're all NS peeps, and I just want that cleared. I'm not accusing clanners of conscious arrogance, I think its a subconscious implication based on the words used. There's been some good points raised in this thread but I for one would hate to see it devolve to pub v clanners flame war, because there's just no need for it.
Yes, 5 clanners could *probably* toast a pub team. However, put ONE clanner on a pub team, and his cohesive teamwork vanishes. Put a pubber on a clan team, and they'll usually fit in seamlessly - they know how to get a team motivated and how to keep it together. Clanners bypass this step by all meeting up, getting a funny handshake and the secret password to the clan website complete with blink tag pop up vote
*a little humour there, cmon we've all seen them <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> *
As for the winning is fun mentality, I can safely say that, no, winning is not fun. I used to play a certain strategy boardgame for over 15 years - UNDEFEATED with my chosen race. Undefeated. You know what that was like? Boring as hell. It was everything I could do to make the game entertaining. After the 3rd year, it was just a question of how long the streak could go. It was the dullest period of my gaming life.
Now, I play for the challenge. I WANT to get owned. I want to get so badly destroyed that I know there's a level to move up to. Pubbing gives me that. It keeps it fun, its a mixed bag, its lively, its so many things that a clan environment simply cannot be. Now, you may well click and tut, but consider that my pubber viewpoint is wholly different to yours. While we may have the same goal, we have a different way of realising it. I want to mold a pub team into something unbreakable, then start again next round. Thats the thrill for me.
*shrug* hope some of that makes sense, didn't mean to ramble on ya.
oh heck... you're trying to drown me to death in text aren't you?
There's no way in sweet heck I'm going to waste my life reading that novel so whatever, you win, clans are walking gods with an insight into the universe at flayra's right hand while us pubbing peons writhe in our own muck. I'm sure after reading these many pages of squabbling where some of us try to tell you that we're happy with our lot in life while you jump down our necks telling us we're ignorant fools will tilt them in favour of going to search for clans, may your charisma and friendly nature guide more souls to your fluffy cloud lands of clanning happiness.
I dunno... I might read it properly later and actually feed you a reply, but I don't finish most things I start so I doubt it =P
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 19 2003, 12:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 19 2003, 12:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> oh heck... you're trying to drown me to death in text aren't you?
There's no way in sweet heck I'm going to waste my life reading that novel so whatever, you win, clans are walking gods with an insight into the universe at flayra's right hand while us pubbing peons writhe in our own muck. I'm sure after reading these many pages of squabbling where some of us try to tell you that we're happy with our lot in life while you jump down our necks telling us we're ignorant fools will tilt them in favour of going to search for clans, may your charisma and friendly nature guide more souls to your fluffy cloud lands of clanning happiness.
I dunno... I might read it properly later and actually feed you a reply, but I don't finish most things I start so I doubt it =P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> gg ignorance
Ok im really done with this topic it's not accomplishing anything. Seph I wasn't being sarcastic you made your point. Necrosis Thank you for being the only person to argue the other said with any amount of intelligence.
Im not saying scrims and matchs are better im saying their completelty different.
Gem hasn't argued this at all. Infact gem hasn't argued anything. It's been flame flame flame. Gem you never backed up a single point I mean seriously that was some of the stupidest **** i've ever read.
Thanks forlorn for your support much <3 to nsdraft and whats it's trying to do. Much <3 to pubbers and to clanners.
I don't know why I'm doing this really. It's sort of an unwritten rule of mine not to get involved in these debates, but what the hell.
First off, for those of you who don't know too much about me, I'm a pubber. I played in a CS clan a long time ago, but I've never been in a NS clan. I played in a couple of PUGs, one of which included a fight against a so-so clan.
I will not claim to know anything about the clan matches of NS, cause quite frankly I don't really know anything about them. I've watched some of the CAL demos but that's it. Will I ever join a clan and get involved in clan matches though? Probably not. Quite frankly, I don't see an advantage to joining a clan. Yes, I admit to you clanners the experience is probably different, but is that difference better? That's the real question in this issue. As a pubber, I don't really think it's better. From what I've seen its more demanding, has a vastly greater learning curve, and is decided in the first few minutes. To me, that just seems it would cause me massive frustration. Sure, the increased teamwork would be nice, but I don't know if it'd be worth it considering the frustration and the utter obliteration I'd recieve at the hands of most clans for a very long time. I admit whole-heartedly that any clan of 6 could probably beat any 6 from the server i play on, that's not the issue. It's just that I don't really care all that much about winning. Now clanners, I'm not saying this is true for all pubbers, but please realise I'm not alone in feeling this way.
Let's set the record straight. Pubbers, we need clanners because they are responsible for the majority of the good servers out there. Clanners, you need us because as you have stated, the clan scene is dying and you need new blood. Unfortunately, clanners you guys got a problem. Us pubbers are content with the pub scene for the most part, whereas you clanners don't seem to be content with the clan scene or else you wouldn't be complaining about it dying. As such, there's really not much of a reason for most pubbers to jump to clan play. Especially when you throw in that most pubbers have a bad view of clans. Now, we both know that the whole "arrogant clanners" is a stereotype and likely an unjust one, but its a stereotype the majority of pubbers seem to subscribe to. That means, you guys are going to have to dispel that stereotype if you ever truly want to convert a large number of pubbers. Whether its true or not the burden of proof is on you and just claiming its false isn't going to cut it. You have to prove it to us in-game and on the forums. Until then you're gonna be mostly wasting your breath on us. That's just the way it is sadly. You have to adapt to that or just give up.
Because, sir, I perfer pub play. Why? Because I don't need to be perfect 100% of the time. I can play to enjoy myself, and I can play to a constantly evolving situation that is much more flexiable then any clan game. Simply put, I feel that the current version is much more enjoyable as a constantly changing pub scene rather then the clan scene, which is a lot of shotgun/tech rushing.
maybe i can lend a helpful opinion to these funfun clanner vs pubber debate. i used to be a pubber. i hated clanners. they were stuckup and thought they were better than everyone. the server i regulared on got a clan started, so we all had tags, but just kinda played together, we didnt scrim, we didnt match, the tag was simply group recognition. it was a lot of fun to build a reputation among our neighboring pub servers.
one day we decided to try it out, scrimming and organization that is. and found we just kept getting whooped. every stinkin noname clan would beat us. so we learned and worked and learned and worked and are currently a low-end CAL league clan. yes we have met a few **** "elite" clanners, but most are just serious organized friend groups playing to win.
i dont play to "have fun" anymore. its not fun to me to lose. when playing public games, and seeing people not helping the team i get irate that they are wasting our team's resources and my concentration. if you wanna run in circles, play LAN alone, and if you want to rambo, play CS. if you want to work as a team to win, play NS. i dont have anything against pubbers in general, for thats where we recruit from, but more and more the time goes by, and i develop a prejudice towards them, they all seem so darn stupid.
me: "what! how come you didnt see the resource tower under attack! why didnt you save it!!" pubber: "oh man i was lerking over there, i dont play 24 hours a day like you **** clanners." me: "dont mess around. get off my server, youre wasting my bandwidth."
----- my clan is pretty new on the scene, and we are still learning and recruiting, and growing, and we are in between the clanner-pubber flamewar. sYn and ReD and cri still look like evil clanners from down here, but pubbers are starting to look like nubbers too. i have a unique vantage point from the midground, and i wish more of you could come up/down to this level. its more fun!
I already dedicate myself to a BF1942 clan (undefeated in CAL!!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> ) but if I ever quit that, I would join an NS clan. 5-6 days a week for one game is already plenty!
Was all that flaming really necessary? You are all just being stereotypical towards yourselves. Can you just do what you like to do and leave yourselves be?
Clanners want organized competition and pubbers want to have fun. As a clanner you may find <i>competition</i> to be fun, but when you get tired you quit and do something else; simple. As a pubber you learn to play the game and either end up wanting some competitive play or otherwise.
I agree that NS has such an indepth form of game play that nothing really beats playing in games where everyone knows what they're doing, but you don't have to be in a clan to experience something like this. Go to a veterans only server(like hamptons server) and you'll find good competitive play there.
ShockehIf a packet drops on the web and nobody's near to see it...Join Date: 2002-11-19Member: 9336NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited October 2003
Sorry, I only got this far before I broke down laughing....
<!--QuoteBegin--Squishy+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Squishy)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->....But I don't ever go off in pubs about it and I don't think any clanners do....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously haven't seen how obnoxious some clans are. As for the challenge, if I can pick 10 pubbers of my choice, I'll happily take it, and you can have the server anywhere worldwide you damn well please, although I can provide my own if necessary.
Generally, most (yes, most, not all) clanners aren't <b>that</b> hot. It's because they regularily play together they become good. The fact is a lot of potentially very skilled players do not clan at all, due to real life issues. (Such as having to work for a living).
I'm fairly anti-clan on the forums, however I know I'm biased due to some bad previous experience with clans, and I'm always pleasantly surprised when I meet a group not as annoying.
To get back on topic however, that obnoxiousness is also why a lot of pubbers don't join clans. We don't have the time, nor the inclination to wade through that much teenage angst & jumped up authority to bother.
one of the main problems with clan scenes is there arnt enuf good clans, i cant think of any major clan that is/has been recruiting in the last month or two, my clan recently had to cut some first rate players because we were so full, its hard fitting 12 people into a 6 man team so start forming some clans <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Shockwave+Oct 19 2003, 04:53 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Shockwave @ Oct 19 2003, 04:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Generally, most (yes, most, not all) clanners aren't <b>that</b> hot. It's because they regularily play together they become good. The fact is a lot of potentially very skilled players do not clan at all, due to real life issues. (Such as having to work for a living). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If not-so-hot players who are in a clan can beat a random team of people who are individually more skilled than them on a regular basis, doesn't that indicate that playing in a clan IS a different experience than pubbing?
I'll now <span style='color:red'>***lock***</span> this thread, as I feel it doesn't need a third repetition of all points.
In the end, it boils down to "live and let live". Nobody in here has a right of dictating others how or with whom to play the game, so don't try to, log into your pub / set up a scrim and have fun, however you might define that word.
Comments
Wow, a condescending tone. Like that wasn't at all expected. Now all we need is a few insults thrown in.
Gem, the orginal topic of this thread was why don't all the know it all pubbers (such as yourself) go join a clan, and test their knowledge of the game?
To this post, not one of you guys have come up with a good reason as to why they just don't put their pubbing time aside and try out a new way to play the same game, except in a (much) more organized and (and much more) effecient manner.
Instead, this thread has degenerated into why BlueSquishy is an arrogant fool, which is believe it or not is off topic, which is against the forum rules.
So basically, just JOIN a clan, and see for yourself what the fuss is about. And if you aren't 100% sure if you want to join a clan, then the other point that was made was to go join www.nsdraft.com, and get a smaller taste of the real thing and decide if clanplay is for you.
After which some people said they weren't good enough reasons to which more replies were given.
It only really degenerated when blue jumped in saying 'pubber=nubber', remember? =P
Wouldn't logic dictate if we had even the slightest inclination of joining a clan for any reason we would've done it by now?
I'm not being offensive here but a number of people who aren't in clans don't want to play 'efficient' games, they prefer fun games. You might find efficiency a word to put in your fun basket but for a lot of people that just sounds like work; ie something games shouldn't be.
The only reason you have given to not join a clan was that clans are bad, which you go on to site examples out of different games... whatever, you kill your argument just by that. It's sheer ignorance.
If you believe that ignorance is bliss, then so be it, but really, if you don't, give a good reason as to not join a clan. If you are just going to give a half-thought out answer, then don't even bother giving one in the first place.
Some people play sports for the fun of playing it, some play sports for the fun of winning. Same with NS.
~hunts down the gem imposter making these invisible posts~
The only game example I've seen was CS and that was by squishy.
Efficiency isn't fun <b>for me</b>, Winning isn't everything, having fun is playing the game to it's fullest.
Just because you don't seem to realise people are different and don't necessarily have a carbon copy set of your values, emotions and stances doesn't mean you have a point. When I said my little short sentence ditty you'll notice that I applied them to myself and myself only.
I've made enough posts in this thread to show the annoying inaccurate summary of "The only reason you have given to not join a clan was that clans are bad" is blatantly off the mark. I've mentioned along with others my reasons and then spent the rest of my time arguing with you and squishy.
I don't think clans are bad; I think they're unnessary ( for me at least).
To be honest your misinterpretation, lack of understanding and the fact you mysteriously dropped out without answering some of my akward points comparing clan to public regular matches kills <u>your</u> arguement, while mine still stands quite happily. Unlike yourself I think I've fully thought out my posts so please don't try and be a clever clogs by throwing mud, especially from your own feet ^^
Seeing as you're so infinitely more experienced than myself in this heavenly land of NS clanning experience, perhaps you can be a good boy and answer the hanging questions left back there asked by myself, smokenova and others huh? Show us ignorant peons the light of your leet <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<b>edit:</b> just shoved in a small clarification =3
<b>edit 2:</b> Rennex's post kinda hit the mark I was getting at in the 2nd paragraph =P
~hunts down the gem imposter making these invisible posts~
The only game example I've seen was CS and that was by squishy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, look at the invisible post citing past experiences with clans and why they aren't for you:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been through the clan scene on several games through several years, I'm not exactly as niave as you seem to think public players are and I'm sure in this thread that the public players with my kind of experience behind them are the rule rather than the exception <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And like I've said, anyone should try clan in a game of NS to get a true feel for NS itself.
Some of your other comments I found equililly hilarious in this thread:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I really hate to break this to you but NS, while interesting and diverse, isn't a massively deep mass of complexity beyond the depths of normal human understanding. You're not possessed of any greater knowledge nor amazing experience than the average regular; in other words please get over yourself =P<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, Squishy would possess more experience than the 'average regular', simply because he's been in competetive play, and probably in a lot of them. The idea that clanner's possess just as much knowledge as the average pubber is incredibly ignorant. Why do you think Flay made a thing called the "Veteran" program? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Considering how much you guys are saying the clan scene is dying I would've thought that you'd have little chance of playing against 'tons of different opponents' unless you play in pubs and teamstack<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because the clan scene is dying (to an extent) doesn't mean that clanners have never played a lot of games with other clans in the first place. This is also another ignorant statement you have made; I'm sure Squishy has played many clans who are now dead. Teamstacking in pubs doesn't really count, as pubbers aren't opponents; they are there simply to play a game they can win, and maybe have some fun in the process. Clanstacking against pubs will always be in the clans favor because the clan knows exactly what it's doing, whereas the pubbers do not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Clan players are all "OMG NO!!! YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THE DARK SECRETS ~does free-masons dance~ WE'RE LIKE SO DIFFERENT!!!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Mock it all you like, but essentially this quote is true.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->LOL! I back up my statements with logic and then you post your opinions backed with more of your opinions telling me I don't back mine up XD<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't back up your statements.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Like I said, I've got a large list of personal reasons for not enjoying the clan scene. I'm just using the material needed to beat off people trying to make themselves feel worth more than they are <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You said where? Oh yes, you don't like other clans because of other experiences in other games. Now I remember.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Fun part is, this is pretty much textbook psychology; small groups who are selective about their initiates suddenly gain 'elite' status in most people's minds. They might not do anything except wear a badge but when people find out not just anybody can get in everyone wants in to give themselves a feeling of self validation
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no such thing for NS. Anyone can join a clan.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Congrats on being in the highest ranking clan and all that fire but lets just put it this way; the minute you claimed or hinted to be the best is the minute you removed any possibility of it being the truth from my mind <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
More ignorance. You were talking about sYn; at one point they were indeed the clan to beat.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But for the people that have the time and say you'd rather play with regs... Why not just... get those regs together and do a few scrims? Have pre-assigned rules, work out a strategy for the map. It seems obvious to me that when you're playing with a plan, you'll have better teamwork. I'm "alien commander" for [GoM] - what I say gets done. That situation isn't even possible on a pub. And I like pubbing, I do it all the time. But NS is a teamplay mod, and you'll get the most coordinated teamplay in a clan. If you've never tried it, it seems worth it to me to get a bunch of people you're friends with and play together. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was made by Kavasa; never once did you reply to him on this paragraph, however you did reply this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol, don't worry kasava, I know what I mean and I know what you mean and we don't mean the same thing <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But you were only adressing one comment:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No really, sYn was the best. As he says, you needn't take his word for it - you can take Flayra's or mine or any of a number of other people. sYn once played what was acknowledged to be the top European clan in 1.03 and got the 4-0 win, two halves on an American server and two halves on a European server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How bout I make this easier. All pubbers are nubbers. see the relation? Pubber=nubber. You know nothing about the game or the true game mechanics. It's designed for teamwork which you cannot get in pubs. CANNOT there is no well if we had good players or some such dn does not recruit alot of good players who wanna join just because we have to have teamwork. Were only now really getting it togethor and we've had the same core 8 for like 10 months. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was said by Squishy, and although it was... lacking in the english department, I would say that for the most part it's true and a slap in the face to reality for pubbers, clan play is 100% different than pub play. Why do all clanners say this? Is it because we have a complusive need to feel "elite"? No, it's because we were all the nubber at one point who learned that clan play is completely different and it has changed the game for us all. So really, I fail to see the signifigance of calling him arrogant; he is simply stating a fact. For proof of the fact that clanners think fundamentally different of the game we call NS versus pubbers:
- Why do all clanners use DC #1, MC #2, and SC #3?
- Why do you barely see MT?
- Why do you see JP before HA?
- Why do you see completely different tatics?
Really, the fact that games are 100% different doesn't clue you in to something?
While you could argue that NS clan play isn't that great because it is lacking right now, this is simply the 1.04 junkies which have decided the new 2.xx isn't for them, and now the 2.xx junkies are simply trying to jumpstart the clan community again. If you don't want to give a reason not to join a clan (or try one out, or sign up for NSD), then please, without further ado, tell us why. The reason most clanners would like to know is because in the long run we could help to solve the problem of why more people aren't signing up. We are trying to adress the problem of there being a lack of clanners, if you couldn't tell by the topic, which asks why don't pubbers join up with clans if they think they know the game.
Instead of getting real intelligent answers, instead for the most part Squishy gets bombarded by ignorant, baised remarks of why clanning is so dumb, time consuming, etc., and again, Squishy carefully points out that "Hey, that's not true because..." and to this people become offended by his "arrogance". Arrogance is nothing more than just being and idoit in the clan scene, and is customary for many clanners to do... they aren't arrogant because they feel the need to be better, but because they think it's fun to be arrogant. Try to lighten up; if you had joined the clan community, you would know what I'm talking about. Some clanners act arrogant simply because they can be; it's a game, it's all online, we are here to have fun not exchange formalities.
Anyhow, while you haven't really stating why you would never want to get invovled with competetive play (other than for personal reasons), most of your comments are off-based, ignorant, and for the most part, wrong.
My own quote, I said it, but I'm adding better emphasis. With italics, because caps looks like shouting.
"Additionally, people are pushing this "clanners aren't arrogant" thing, and I suppose <i>in your own minds you're not</i>, but saying things like "you don't understand NS till you're in a clan" IS arrogance - sheer unrefined arrogance. I see the pub-inclined people here saying "well you like clanning, so thats good for you, we prefer this" and then from the other side "you don't know what you're talking about, clan play is so much better".
See the difference in outlook?"
IMHO what the clanners are saying makes sense to them, it sounds normal to them, but to use pubbers, it sounds like arrogance. Now, at the same time, what we're saying is normal to us, that its different strokes for different folks, and I was trying to point out how the pubbers seem to have an easy going approach to gaming, but their hackles go up when clanners come on and say we have no idea of how NS should be played.
Now, if someone walked up to you, and said you had no idea of how to walk, and that they were in a band, and had learned to walk in formation and thus knew more than you did, what would YOU think about them?
I have nothing against clanners - at the core we're all NS peeps, and I just want that cleared. I'm not accusing clanners of conscious arrogance, I think its a subconscious implication based on the words used. There's been some good points raised in this thread but I for one would hate to see it devolve to pub v clanners flame war, because there's just no need for it.
Yes, 5 clanners could *probably* toast a pub team. However, put ONE clanner on a pub team, and his cohesive teamwork vanishes. Put a pubber on a clan team, and they'll usually fit in seamlessly - they know how to get a team motivated and how to keep it together. Clanners bypass this step by all meeting up, getting a funny handshake and the secret password to the clan website complete with blink tag pop up vote
*a little humour there, cmon we've all seen them <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> *
As for the winning is fun mentality, I can safely say that, no, winning is not fun. I used to play a certain strategy boardgame for over 15 years - UNDEFEATED with my chosen race. Undefeated. You know what that was like? Boring as hell. It was everything I could do to make the game entertaining. After the 3rd year, it was just a question of how long the streak could go. It was the dullest period of my gaming life.
Now, I play for the challenge. I WANT to get owned. I want to get so badly destroyed that I know there's a level to move up to. Pubbing gives me that. It keeps it fun, its a mixed bag, its lively, its so many things that a clan environment simply cannot be. Now, you may well click and tut, but consider that my pubber viewpoint is wholly different to yours. While we may have the same goal, we have a different way of realising it. I want to mold a pub team into something unbreakable, then start again next round. Thats the thrill for me.
*shrug* hope some of that makes sense, didn't mean to ramble on ya.
There's no way in sweet heck I'm going to waste my life reading that novel so whatever, you win, clans are walking gods with an insight into the universe at flayra's right hand while us pubbing peons writhe in our own muck. I'm sure after reading these many pages of squabbling where some of us try to tell you that we're happy with our lot in life while you jump down our necks telling us we're ignorant fools will tilt them in favour of going to search for clans, may your charisma and friendly nature guide more souls to your fluffy cloud lands of clanning happiness.
I dunno... I might read it properly later and actually feed you a reply, but I don't finish most things I start so I doubt it =P
There's no way in sweet heck I'm going to waste my life reading that novel so whatever, you win, clans are walking gods with an insight into the universe at flayra's right hand while us pubbing peons writhe in our own muck. I'm sure after reading these many pages of squabbling where some of us try to tell you that we're happy with our lot in life while you jump down our necks telling us we're ignorant fools will tilt them in favour of going to search for clans, may your charisma and friendly nature guide more souls to your fluffy cloud lands of clanning happiness.
I dunno... I might read it properly later and actually feed you a reply, but I don't finish most things I start so I doubt it =P <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
gg ignorance
Im not saying scrims and matchs are better im saying their completelty different.
Gem hasn't argued this at all. Infact gem hasn't argued anything. It's been flame flame flame. Gem you never backed up a single point I mean seriously that was some of the stupidest **** i've ever read.
Thanks forlorn for your support much <3 to nsdraft and whats it's trying to do. Much <3 to pubbers and to clanners.
First off, for those of you who don't know too much about me, I'm a pubber. I played in a CS clan a long time ago, but I've never been in a NS clan. I played in a couple of PUGs, one of which included a fight against a so-so clan.
I will not claim to know anything about the clan matches of NS, cause quite frankly I don't really know anything about them. I've watched some of the CAL demos but that's it. Will I ever join a clan and get involved in clan matches though? Probably not. Quite frankly, I don't see an advantage to joining a clan. Yes, I admit to you clanners the experience is probably different, but is that difference better? That's the real question in this issue. As a pubber, I don't really think it's better. From what I've seen its more demanding, has a vastly greater learning curve, and is decided in the first few minutes. To me, that just seems it would cause me massive frustration. Sure, the increased teamwork would be nice, but I don't know if it'd be worth it considering the frustration and the utter obliteration I'd recieve at the hands of most clans for a very long time. I admit whole-heartedly that any clan of 6 could probably beat any 6 from the server i play on, that's not the issue. It's just that I don't really care all that much about winning. Now clanners, I'm not saying this is true for all pubbers, but please realise I'm not alone in feeling this way.
Let's set the record straight. Pubbers, we need clanners because they are responsible for the majority of the good servers out there. Clanners, you need us because as you have stated, the clan scene is dying and you need new blood. Unfortunately, clanners you guys got a problem. Us pubbers are content with the pub scene for the most part, whereas you clanners don't seem to be content with the clan scene or else you wouldn't be complaining about it dying. As such, there's really not much of a reason for most pubbers to jump to clan play. Especially when you throw in that most pubbers have a bad view of clans. Now, we both know that the whole "arrogant clanners" is a stereotype and likely an unjust one, but its a stereotype the majority of pubbers seem to subscribe to. That means, you guys are going to have to dispel that stereotype if you ever truly want to convert a large number of pubbers. Whether its true or not the burden of proof is on you and just claiming its false isn't going to cut it. You have to prove it to us in-game and on the forums. Until then you're gonna be mostly wasting your breath on us. That's just the way it is sadly. You have to adapt to that or just give up.
one day we decided to try it out, scrimming and organization that is. and found we just kept getting whooped. every stinkin noname clan would beat us. so we learned and worked and learned and worked and are currently a low-end CAL league clan. yes we have met a few **** "elite" clanners, but most are just serious organized friend groups playing to win.
i dont play to "have fun" anymore. its not fun to me to lose. when playing public games, and seeing people not helping the team i get irate that they are wasting our team's resources and my concentration. if you wanna run in circles, play LAN alone, and if you want to rambo, play CS. if you want to work as a team to win, play NS. i dont have anything against pubbers in general, for thats where we recruit from, but more and more the time goes by, and i develop a prejudice towards them, they all seem so darn stupid.
me: "what! how come you didnt see the resource tower under attack! why didnt you save it!!"
pubber: "oh man i was lerking over there, i dont play 24 hours a day like you **** clanners."
me: "dont mess around. get off my server, youre wasting my bandwidth."
-----
my clan is pretty new on the scene, and we are still learning and recruiting, and growing, and we are in between the clanner-pubber flamewar. sYn and ReD and cri still look like evil clanners from down here, but pubbers are starting to look like nubbers too. i have a unique vantage point from the midground, and i wish more of you could come up/down to this level. its more fun!
Clanners want organized competition and pubbers want to have fun. As a clanner you may find <i>competition</i> to be fun, but when you get tired you quit and do something else; simple. As a pubber you learn to play the game and either end up wanting some competitive play or otherwise.
I agree that NS has such an indepth form of game play that nothing really beats playing in games where everyone knows what they're doing, but you don't have to be in a clan to experience something like this. Go to a veterans only server(like hamptons server) and you'll find good competitive play there.
<!--QuoteBegin--Squishy+--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Squishy)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->....But I don't ever go off in pubs about it and I don't think any clanners do....<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You obviously haven't seen how obnoxious some clans are. As for the challenge, if I can pick 10 pubbers of my choice, I'll happily take it, and you can have the server anywhere worldwide you damn well please, although I can provide my own if necessary.
Generally, most (yes, most, not all) clanners aren't <b>that</b> hot. It's because they regularily play together they become good. The fact is a lot of potentially very skilled players do not clan at all, due to real life issues. (Such as having to work for a living).
I'm fairly anti-clan on the forums, however I know I'm biased due to some bad previous experience with clans, and I'm always pleasantly surprised when I meet a group not as annoying.
To get back on topic however, that obnoxiousness is also why a lot of pubbers don't join clans. We don't have the time, nor the inclination to wade through that much teenage angst & jumped up authority to bother.
- Shockwave
If not-so-hot players who are in a clan can beat a random team of people who are individually more skilled than them on a regular basis, doesn't that indicate that playing in a clan IS a different experience than pubbing?
In the end, it boils down to "live and let live". Nobody in here has a right of dictating others how or with whom to play the game, so don't try to, log into your pub / set up a scrim and have fun, however you might define that word.