R Lerks Underpowered?

Fat_Wang · October 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">ive never killed any1 with them</div> da reason im posting this is cuase ive never killed any1 with da lerk but rines have killed me. lerks were better in 1.04 IMO cuase they had bite which meant they can kill sumthing. lets luk at their attacks shall we: spikes- pitiful dmg
spores- pitiful dmg over time (pitiful cuase no1s gonna stay in them)
umbra- no dmg
primal scream- helps u do dmg (prob is that it lasts 3 secs and the crappy wep switch time is like 1.5-2 secs so u use like 41% of ur energy for 1-1.5 secs as a super lerk- not worth it in my opinion)

compare that to a jetpacker with a hmg:
bout same movement capabilities as u
WAY better killing capabilities
costs bout the same as u

u can c that lerks kinda suk against light rines and do nothing to ha/hmgs

Dihard · October 2003

I don't know what your problem is with spikes, but I kill lots of marines with them (light armor anyway). Usually I spore them first then hit them with spikes until they die. It only takes a few seconds of spiking to kill them.

Anyway, lerks aren't really meant to be very efficient killers. They're support units, and most of their abilities are designed to harass the enemy or strengthen allies.

Necrosis · October 2003

Basically what Dihard second.

Lerks aren't killers. They CAN kill, but so can anything in the game. Its just a question of how to use them. Second, IMHO, you're not MEANT to be using lerks to kill - they're support class. Concentrate less on spike sniping and focus on spore/umbra support of teammates <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

BTW Primal Scream is not JUST for your benefit - the other people running about are meant to be making use of it. The evidence is right in front of you that the lerk is a support class. I suggest you take that on board.

VampMaster · October 2003

Lerks are EXTREMELY efficient killers, I usually can bring back some serious ressource (like 100 easily) before dieing, and when I die, I just use 60 of those res to build stuff as gorge.

As other said, lerks are support.

2_of_Eight · October 2003

Lerks aren't meant to kill, as others said. They *can* kill, but it's not guaranteed that they will.
Onii are meant to kill, but they can defend/harass/whatnot as well.
Most units are specialized in one thing, but they can do all <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Swift_Idiot · October 2003

:O Oh no you didn't.

Lerks own everything, for 34 res, regen, adren. I'm totally serious. If you AREN'T dying with 100 res, you're doing something wrong, or you stood still long enough for a camping rambo-rine to pistol you in a half second, or you went and thought lerks were any good at close range. If you stay at longer ranges, flit about a little to throw off the enemy's aim, and never switch from spike, you will rack up so many kills, it's stupid. Lerks own long hallways like a marine with pistol can only wish they could. They are the ultimate early game killing machines with regen or a quick route to the hive. With Regen3, you should have no problem owning everything upto and until they get a HA train or full armor upgrades. And even during a hive assault, if you have a hive with a nice little hiding spot in the back, you can sap HAs just by picking a target and spiking him over and over and over. I've done this, it's not hard if the HAs are even a LITTLE off on their welding-each-other duties. If they don't know where you are, you're even more deadly. I whacked two of them during a full hive assault, with nothing but spike and a good hiding spot in the roof.

About the ONLY thing that lerks CAN'T do is quickly take down marine structures. They have to spike FOREVER to even take down one turret. You don't really use them for this, ever. Their lack of sufficient power to down marine structures is the only thing keeping them from dominating the early game for a mere 32 res, plus DCs. Even without regen, they're still a huge nuisance. If you're going lerk with cara or redemp or no defense upgrades at all, I can understand if you're getting pounded. But a regen lerk has no excuse. Alone or in a group, it's the lerk that is the force multiplier. Umbra, spores, and spike the bunnyhoppers your skulk/fade/onos buddies can't take down, primal scream for the machinegun spikes, chainsaw skulks, woodchipper fades, and jackhammer onii. So really, with a third hive and a little teamwork, lerks can even be the ones that make taking out marine bases possible.

There can't be enough said for lerks. They, like fades, are real menaces to the marines.

Norml_E_High · October 2003

The thing about lerks is you have to use them properly to get kills. Sure, you can just try to spike light armor marines to death, but thats usually not enough. What I usually do, is try to make a corridor of spores. Usually marines are highly annoyed by lerks so they chase them down. If you make say, three clouds of spores that they have to run through to get to you, they will be considerably damaged once they get to you, and you can just spike them to death easily. Lerks aren't attack classes though, they are solely support. Spores and spikes are meant to be nothing more than annoyance to the marines IMO, and if you take some down on the way, hey more power to you. Spores are mainly for softening up marines for the rest of your team, AND, makeing them waste res on medpacks.

SkitZoFrenic · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>spores- pitiful dmg over time (pitiful cuase no1s gonna stay in them)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
lol..he MUST be a n00b...cuz he's never spored armory humpers b4...

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>compare that to a jetpacker with a hmg:
bout same movement capabilities as u
WAY better killing capabilities
costs bout the same as u</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Yeah...except JP/HMG take a LONG **** time to get...while u can lerk within 1 min of the game!

JP/HMGers BETTER the hell do more...or the game would have no balance!

Cold_NiTe · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Oct 11 2003, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Lerks own everything, for 34 res, regen, adren. I'm totally serious. If you AREN'T dying with 100 res, you're doing something wrong, or you stood still long enough for a camping rambo-rine to pistol you in a half second, or you went and thought lerks were any good at close range.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Swift Idiot is right in saying that.

Find a nice vent with a good view, get yourself those upgrades and cap some rines man! It is not hard to get kills as a Lerk, you just have to find the right place. Consider the following:<ul>
<li>View of surrounding area.
<li>Depth of the vent; How far back into the vent can you go to avoid Bullets and Grenades?
<li>Local marine activity; Is it a a high traffic area you can exploit?
<li>Do you have the right upgrades; (see quote for details)?
<li>Any other Kharaa serving as a destraction so you are not focused on?
</ul>

ZiGGY · October 2003

I like the new Celerity Lerk, marines without armour upgrades get totally shredded by spikes.

RaVe · October 2003

Lerks are underpowered ONLY if the person doesn't know how to use it properly,or they're having some mouse problems :\

Either way Lerks are just well-rounded,I don't think they need anymore tweaking

Swift_Idiot · October 2003

I dunno about not tweaking them, that might not be giving them enough credit. While lerks, because they hit a wall when they try to attack structures, cannot really be true attacking units, against marines themselves, they are extremely powerful. Their only weaknesses have to be grenades, or HMGs. LMGs can peg them to death at close range, but at range, where the lerk is deadly, the LMG only does its 10 dmg hits every so often. A lerk taking cover in the rafters or behind walls with Regen will have no problems against an LMG. And the pistol, the best early-game solution to lerks, relies on them settling on the ground long enough for someone to draw a bead on them, and click seven to eight times. It's possible, but you have to wait for something that might not happen too often. Believe me, lerks can be taken down if you rush them before they know it's your plan, but at long range, the lerk is basically a flying, endless stream of instant-hit spikes. Spore is also nasty when you use it like you're supposed to. In the first minute, a lerk with a team that puts down immediate DCs can essentially close off entire portions of the map from the marines unless they decide to send almost their whole team in that direction. One 30 res unit shouldn't be able to do that.

Spore and spike should drain a small fraction more energy. Also, just as an incentive for the lerks not to do what I enjoy doing, taking spikes and going face to face with LA LMG (totally possible with regen, I do this all the time and win, easily, once they waste their clip of LMG ammo), they might need to have their HP dropped to about 100-110, IMO, or their regen-rates toyed with a little. Lerks are really hyper-nasty little things, and as much as I love using them, I'm not that great at videogames, and I shouldn't be able to do as much with them as I currently am. IMO, it would be great if ALL alien life forms required the same skill to be deadly as Fades do.

im_lost · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>IMO, it would be great if ALL alien life forms required the same skill to be deadly as Fades do.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
This would mean the marine team would also have to be made more difficult to play in some way. If you don't do this marines will always win on pubs, and if you do change it then there will be no way for new players to learn the game and get any enjoyment out of it.

Fat_Wang · October 2003

ok thx for the tips i found what i was doing wrong... my mouse hasnt been cleaned in yrs and i just got a new cordless optical mouse . also my team of n00bs keep putting up mcs 1st so i keep getting pwned by the shottys. o ya i tried sporing armory humpers but they run away, clearly their fear of death is stronger then their motivation to hump the armory <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

Necrosis · October 2003

Unfortunately negative selection, despite being a supremely effective way of controlling evolution, is still illegal worldwide.

Stoneburg · October 2003

I prefer MC first as lerk, and calling your team "n00bs" for putting them up when you yourself have no idea who to play lerk is kind of dumb, don't you think?

Anyway, I saw the dumbest lerk yesterday, he must have read this thread. I'm com and we have 6 Marines inside Powersilo, which just went up, shooting the hive. There's a lerk in the rafters, what does he do? Umbra the hive? No. Spore the Marines? No. Try to spike them to death, why yes.

About the dumbest thing I ever saw and a big factor in us winning as Marines. If that moron hadn't been so hell bent on getting a frag he would have put umbra on the hive and we wouldn't have been able to kill it. His options were:

1. Umbra. By far the best, umbra the hive letting it live 3 times as long and umbra the Marines letting the skulks kill them.

2. Spore. Not a very good option but would at least have softened the Marines for the skulks and made me spend a *lot* or res on medpacks.

3. Spike. Congratulations, you chose the dumbest option. Making me have to spend very little on medpacks and not helping your team at all.

I think one Marine died in the assault, to a skulk.

ThE_HeRo · October 2003

Lerks are unstoppable with either movement chamber (silence, duh) or defense chamber (regen, duh). Sensory just plain suck, they're f4 chambers.
If you want to go early fade, lerk until you get 50 res, you'll get it faster than the people that saved and didnt drop rt's. If you're doing it right.

Harry_S_Truman · October 2003

I get craploads of kills with the lerk. The key is...never attack alone.

Swift_Idiot · October 2003

I don't know Stone. I would have put sporing the marines last on that list, personally. I think you were just dealing with a really crappy lerk. Any LA assault (I'm assuming, since you mentioned spores, and obviously HA aren't effected) on a hive like Power, even with one lerk in the roof, isn't supposed to go well for the marines. Powersilo has that advantage for lerks, as does Viaduct. Unless you were already dropping meds with pinpount precision, spiking should have done the trick. I know you're a good com from your posts and insight, but if any lerk focuses spikes on one marine, he isn't going to last without CONSTANT meds. Also, the lerk probably should have been spreading his tactics out anyway. Umbra the hive once every four or five seconds, sporecloud one side of the room, spike at whatever else until he needs to umbra again. Some of us can multitask like that.. But if the lerk you're mentioning didn't even get one kill, then it's not a fault with his tactics, it's a fault with his aim. He should have been able to wax half your squad.

I prefer regen first for lerks. A lerk without regen is 30 res worth of fried chicken to any marine who catches the lerk somewhere with low doorways, and follows the lerk's movement, and path of escape. Adren is nice, silence is nice, celerity is nice, but I suppose I'm just a lame regen-monkey. With some crazy flapping, you can regen enough health to carefully make your escape, usually. Plus, since the lerk is usually really effective in the first minute or five, as well as worth 30 res, you want to have that player pay the res cost back, and then some. Since you probably won't have a hive in the first five minutes, forget about mass-adren-spamming umbra clouds around. And spore is nice for crowds, but you only need one or two clouds for it to do it's work. Spike costs next to nothing, and is very easy to hit with. Silence isn't as necesary, since you shouldn't be trying to sneak up on someone anyway, and you shouldn't be too close to anyone for that matter, and celerity makes you crash into walls. Plus, you have the mobility of a leap-capable skulk. What more does one need? Since you'll be operating near the front lines to prevent and slow marine expansion, you will be far from the hive. Since you should be a vent-monkey, regen pairs perfectly.

Purely my perspective.

Your buddy the lerk there needs more werk there. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Stoneburg · October 2003

There were six Marines in a cluster around the RT in the hive, so one or two clouds would have dealt constant damage to all six. The reason they were in a cluster was that I med spammed that area. With spores he would have been hitting 6 Marines every tick, costing 6 med packs, now he cost me like 1-2 med packs instead.

I'm a decent com, but my weakest spot is my med and ammo aiming, I play with 150-200 ping and pretty low FPS, that's my excuse at least <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Cold_NiTe · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Oct 12 2003, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> 1. Umbra. By far the best, umbra the hive letting it live 3 times as long and umbra the Marines letting the skulks kill them.

2. Spore. Not a very good option but would at least have softened the Marines for the skulks and made me spend a *lot* or res on medpacks.

3. Spike. Congratulations, you chose the dumbest option. Making me have to spend very little on medpacks and not helping your team at all.

I think one Marine died in the assault, to a skulk.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
You forgot the option of switching between spore and umbra with "lastinv". Then he could have done 1 and 2 and been a hero instead of going for frags like a moron. I mean, a lerk is a support class. If they have nothing to support, then they should try to keep marine expansion down to a minimum.

FlashFrog · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift Idiot @ Oct 11 2003, 04:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And even during a hive assault, if you have a hive with a nice little hiding spot in the back, you can sap HAs just by picking a target and spiking him over and over and over. I've done this, it's not hard if the HAs are even a LITTLE off on their welding-each-other duties.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I think I hate you. Spike kills annoy the hell out of me... >_<

When I think how deadly a small skulk rush could be with just a <i>little</i> bit of umbra support, I just have to marvel at how rarely people use it. Come to think of it, I don't see much use of Umbra in ANY situation anymore. I guess too many people think the way the thread starter does...

gekigarion · October 2003

I don't see why people don't use umbra like heck. I always, always use umbra every chance I get. I look at the skulk next to me, and then think, "Who can do more damage--that skulk, or me?" The obvious answer is the skulk, of course. I can do 48 damage per skulk bite, he can do...75 damage per bite. And that's if I hit the marine with all spikes.

Since spores last for eternity, open up with spore unless something's about to die and it's crucial to have umbra. Then you umbra, spike a little, umbra again, spike a little, spore and umbra again, etc. Lerk is an easy-peasy class, the problem is when people look at a FPS game they think it takes no brains and strategy and that to be good you have to be "elite" like in CS or something.

Swift_Idiot · October 2003

I think one of the reasons people don't umbra anymore is because everyone is convinced that since it dropped from blocking as many bullets, it's not as useful. True to a certain extent, but I guess it's still nice. Plus, it's kind of hard to umbra someone like a fade who is moving around all over the place. You pretty much just have to umbra the place you want them to go and hope they go there. Even onii move through umbra clouds too fast to keep them under constant umbra. It would be really nice if you could umbra the marines or put an umbra cloud between you and the enemy, but the umbra doesn't work like that. Thus, most people figure that since all their energy is being spent on umbra clouds that have no aliens in them for more than a second at a time, they should spore and spike at the guys the skulks and fades and onii miss. Usually, this is enough. I guess if you have a group that knows how to operate, you could have the lerk drop into view long enough to create a path of umbra down a hallway, which the onos immediately charges down, through all three umbra clouds. It could work.

Last · October 2003

I don't know what you're complaining about.

I go lerk and get tons of spike kills before I die... and spore's good for holding a specific area too. I think you just need to learn to play...

Stoneburg · October 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold-NiTe @ Oct 12 2003, 07:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ Oct 12 2003, 02:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> 1. Umbra. By far the best, umbra the hive letting it live 3 times as long and umbra the Marines letting the skulks kill them.

2. Spore. Not a very good option but would at least have softened the Marines for the skulks and made me spend a *lot* or res on medpacks.

3. Spike. Congratulations, you chose the dumbest option. Making me have to spend very little on medpacks and not helping your team at all.

I think one Marine died in the assault, to a skulk. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You forgot the option of switching between spore and umbra with "lastinv". Then he could have done 1 and 2 and been a hero instead of going for frags like a moron. I mean, a lerk is a support class. If they have nothing to support, then they should try to keep marine expansion down to a minimum.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I didn't forget an option, I listed them all. Or do I have to put "Option #4 is to use option #1 and #2, Option #5 is to use option #2 and #3...."
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Anyway... umbra is extremely effective. It's not that hard to use either. Fades? Just umbra the Marine, that's where he will be when he attacks and as lomg as he is blinking he doesn't need it until he attacks. Same goes for all aliens, just put the umbra on their *target* instead of them. Exceptions would include Onos, since they are slow enough to hit and Marines tend to focus on them.

We had a full team of Marines with heavy weapons attack Sewer hive on ns_mineshaft the other day. Actually, when it started it wasn't a full team of heavys but a lot of LMG's, some shotties/hmg's and possibly a GL. I was gorge and was healing the hive like crazy, a lerk was putting umbra on it. After a minute or so I got killed. Hive was still up. After dying as a skulk a couple of times I noticed I had enough for a hive, so I ran off to Tram. At tram I dropped an OC on the PG and bilebombed the turretfarm, once done, I started the hive and lamed it up a bit. Then I dropped a movement chamber and headed back to Sewer. The hive was *still* alive when Tram went up, skulks used the MC and started to Xeno the Marines.

Sewer hive was under *constant* attack from Marines, starting with mostly LMG's and shotguns but at the end it was a full team of heavy weapons and HA (they got a LOT of res from all teh skulks that ran in and died I guess). The reason was that we had a lerk put umbra on it the whole time, and 2-3 gorges healing it. The COM never built a TF to siege it because he just couldn't believe that the hive would stay up under that amount of firepower.

Umbra useless? I think not. With umbra, being shot at by three Marines is like being shot by *one*. Instead of three HMG's or shotguns shooting at that onos, it is in reality just one. People that say umbra isn't usefull enough don't know what they are talking about.

ZERG · October 2003

Underpowered? More like overpowered. You guys keep talking about "oh the lerk is a support class it shouldn't kill and can't kill effectively so I should spore or something like that." When I go lerk I spore/spike and stop an entire teams movement in its tracks. And even if you die because you made the mistake you usually have 30+ res or even 100 res...

Anyhow...

Basic tactics are to use spore and spikes. Open with spores, always. Never use spikes without a blanket of spores. Never ever stay stationary or within their line of sight. I recommend you fly around them. Use 1.0 bite lerk tactics minus the fly + bite. Keep your distance and keep your speed up. Never ever "float"

Late game, use umbra to cover higher evolutions. Forget umbraing skulks or even yourself or fellow lerks, they die just as fast and I've seen it and felt it. Use primal scream for maximum spikage.

That's the basic, hope you have fun! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I get craploads of kills with the lerk. The key is...never attack alone. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

That's funny, cause I usually attack alone. Either a) my teammates get killed and I'm left or b) I play agressively and Im always on the front lines (with regen I'll always be at the front lines)

Fat_Wang · October 2003

thx for the tips guys, now im getting frags by the crapload <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> figured that celerity helps me b superlerk and scilence is useless cuase they alrdy c me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'> and i figured how good sporing armory humpers who armory hump while bing spored feels <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> i played on a server where the lerks were SO SO SO overpowered... a plugin let the lerks use the skulks bite and so every1 went lerk and started flybies where u circle fly them and them u close in and bite them to death.. it was so awesum!!! that game had every1 saying things like "rines suk, blow and deserve to die", "admin kick playerx for not going rines", "im not playing unless i b alien", etc...

RaVe · October 2003

You should try Adrenaline sometime,it helps your flight alot....unless you prefer walking, in which case get Celerity.

And as for Silence....it only is effective when you're hiding on a good well hidden perch,which downgrades its use a bit, since those are a rarity <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

Lerks can be overpowered in the right hands. In the wrong hands...well, forget it, he won't be going anywhere without some basic knowledge on the Lerk's role <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

leek · October 2003

best map to really annoy marines is caged why?

they always but always relocate to double res.

theres a vent that goes from generator side of the map to central processing allowing you a 99% safe place to spore their armoury from. they will get a GL to shoot you with which is no bother as you can be out the other side of the vent in 2 secsonds to complete saftey. heck you could even get a gorge to build some dcs on the generator side for you. ive done this some games where the comm had to completeley build new ips and armory because of the new trend to build all structures around the Elec TF in base. because some of the marines counld'nt get off the IPs before they died from spores =D. racked up an absouloutley extreme amount of kills =]

Trevelyan · October 2003

i love lerk so much... there is only one thing that needs to be changed... crouch button makes you dive towards the ground like a eagle.

R Lerks Underpowered?

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