OC's would hit a Marine everytime in 2.0 and everybody bitched.
Flayra reduced the accuracy in 2.01, everybody bitched.
Try using the damn structures more tactically instead of just plunking one in the middle of a room where twenty Marines can shoot at it without being damaged. The idea of OC's is to have a suprise element. That element is much more enhanced when Sensory is in play however, being the 3rd favorite chamber amongst most people, it doesn't happen that often. If the Alien team is working together, many resource nodes can be capped in the beginning of the game and then 2 or 3 people can perma-Gorge and basically just put of defense everywhere.
The idea of OC's and Marine Turrets are to slow down the opposing team. You can't expect every OC or every Marine Turret to kill ANYTHING that passes by.
I also disagree with the opening statement. OC's are VERY VERY different than 1.04. Those spit balls they used to shoot? Haha! Now those never hit anything. With the spikes the OC's shoot now, they will hit any Marine within it's range with fairly good accuracy.
Give it a rest and think of new ways to place down OC's. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This makes not sense with OFFENSE chambers....sigh.
<!--QuoteBegin--Windelkron+Oct 11 2003, 09:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Windelkron @ Oct 11 2003, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm against the "light damage" versus HA ... that should be taken out, and things will get evened out after htat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Especially when one considers that a welder can repair an HA from 0 to 290 in about 3 seconds.
But u got to admit, OC can be an advantage at times, if u use them right <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Morrik+Oct 11 2003, 06:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Morrik @ Oct 11 2003, 06:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Give it a rest and think of new ways to place down OC's. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Gonna have to go with this statement. Sure OC's costs seem to make them ineffective, but thats only because the use of an OC has changed. Its role in the battlefield had been redefined. From now on you guys are going ot have to use them in different ways to get the same level of effectiveness out of them. Do I know how to use them in the way I am speaking of? No. But will I experiment to find out what makes them more effective? Heck yea!
It's not too hard to make them effective, but 10 res is pretty expensive for a gorge at the start and in the end game OCs are nigh-on useless against HA no matter where you place them. I still think a 1 res price reduction would help a bit =/
As for actual placement you can seriously hinder and kill small groups of marines with simple layout. The first tactic to use is backshooting. This is basically where you shove the OC in such a place that the marines will have walked past it before it starts firing which means it studs them in the back once or twice before they even know its there XD The second one is the multiple fronts idea; by having 2 or more OCs firing at the same spot at the same time from completely opposite directions the marines have trouble picking which one to take first and can't take them all in a oner. T-junctions are great for this as well as relatively wide rooms where you can just put an OC in each corner <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
OC's would hit a Marine everytime in 2.0 and everybody bitched.
Flayra reduced the accuracy in 2.01, everybody bitched.
Try using the damn structures more tactically instead of just plunking one in the middle of a room where twenty Marines can shoot at it without being damaged. The idea of OC's is to have a suprise element. That element is much more enhanced when Sensory is in play however, being the 3rd favorite chamber amongst most people, it doesn't happen that often. If the Alien team is working together, many resource nodes can be capped in the beginning of the game and then 2 or 3 people can perma-Gorge and basically just put of defense everywhere.
The idea of OC's and Marine Turrets are to slow down the opposing team. You can't expect every OC or every Marine Turret to kill ANYTHING that passes by.
I also disagree with the opening statement. OC's are VERY VERY different than 1.04. Those spit balls they used to shoot? Haha! Now those never hit anything. With the spikes the OC's shoot now, they will hit any Marine within it's range with fairly good accuracy.
Give it a rest and think of new ways to place down OC's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This makes not sense with OFFENSE chambers....sigh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What? Please explain your reason.
<!--QuoteBegin--Geminosity+Oct 12 2003, 06:29 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Geminosity @ Oct 12 2003, 06:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still think a 1 res price reduction would help a bit =/ <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Someone else suggested this in some earlier incarnation of this same conflict and was hounded for it like no tomorrow. But I still agree with the idea.
3. Make it impossible for a marine to shoot an OC without being hit by the OC.
im SO with you guys on that one, im tried of this ghetto **** marine at the corner of a wall shooting down an OC with great ease.
i say we make OC's take 1/2 dmg from lmg/hmg/shottie least that OC will live longer enough for some one to aid it...oh wait oc's were meant to fight and defend, not be defended. that just kills it. its like spawning MC's all over the map and having to defend them because they are suppose to help
<!--QuoteBegin--bLuISh+Oct 12 2003, 06:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bLuISh @ Oct 12 2003, 06:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->im SO with you guys on that one, im tried of this ghetto **** marine at the corner of a wall shooting down an OC with great ease.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've personally taken down non-DC WoL's like this and even I, looking on the situation as a marine, think it is too much.
<!--QuoteBegin--bLuISh+ right after I posted--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bLuISh @ right after I posted)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Make it impossible for a marine to shoot an OC without being hit by the OC. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heard this idea somewhere else on some topic other than NS, but yeah definetly applies here.
place ocs better hints: place them so that they shoot the marines in the back place them so that mltiple groups begin fireing at the same time dont make a wall but line a hallway use dcs/scs place them so that the marines will have a hard time retreating - ladders make sure that they cant be seen untill the begin fireing - make sure that it takes time for the marine to figure out what is happening stay with the big sets and spit/heal as needed lure marines into traps
i recently went gorge in generator on nothing and with 2 skulks helping me out i plopped down 2 ocs and a dc. the ocs WERE AROUND THE CORNERS so marines had to come in to shoot at them. this = dead marines. half the marine team kept attacking but they couldn't break through. we went on to win the game because of my ocs allowing us to hold gen. skulks can play much more "dodgy" with ocs around, cause with healing for the skulks, marines just die from the ocs and heal spray after spending their clip shooting at various targets in the room and not doing much.
ocs are very good in the beginning to middle game when someone has 25-30 res and the team needs to secure a strategic position, and you already have a lerk or 2. it's even better for a gorge who rt'd at the game start and survived long enough to accumulate the 20 res while healing skulks etc.
Thinking about early-game OCs, by the time a marine starts firing on an OC, to the time he can destroy it (2-3 clips of ammo) you can have skulk reinforcements before then, which usually happens. Needless to say, if the Skulks are good enough, the marines fall and the OCs still stand.
You should be allowed to place OC's on Walls & the Roof <i><span style='color:red'>If reachable obviously</span></i> & it should go the same for marines, the can have the <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> bolted into the wall or something along those lines, it is boring just having them flat on the ground <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Drewbar99+Oct 12 2003, 07:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drewbar99 @ Oct 12 2003, 07:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You should be allowed to place OC's on Walls & the Roof <i><span style='color:red'>If reachable obviously</span></i> & it should go the same for marines, the can have the <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> bolted into the wall or something along those lines, it is boring just having them flat on the ground <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> go go metamod scripts! <a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/' target='_blank'>modns.org</a>
juice: nice one, its really fun when you place ocs in really dark corners ... WTH WHERE ARE THEY?! OMJ H4X
OC's are great the way they are. Used right, they are very effective. I bunch the people that complain about OC's in th esame category as the "Fades are useless" crowd. Just because YOU don't know how to use them doesn't mean they're useless.
Marines shooting them without being hit. Well duh, build them so that aint possible. Yeah, most times a Marine can either strafe-shoot it, or peek just enough to see a part of it without being hit. This takes time, time that you can use to get there and find a hurt/reloading Marine. THAT is a function. The exact same thing is true for turrets. A lerk can kill a single turret without being hit. A skulk can easily take down a turret without dying, with regen or cara, two.
With the popular Rambo strategies well placed OC's and *conservative* play from the Aliens is a very valid strategy. Instead of capping 6 res immediatly, and losing most of them, cap 2-3, get some OC's and D or S there too. Suddelnly, you have time to attack the Marines nodes instead of defending your own, and when defending your own, you have fire support and healing/cloaking.
Are people *actively* trying to come up with things to complain about? Seems like it.
Uh i dont think they need a price reduction,this gorg had 6 OCs backed by 3 DCs at topo rt in veil(we went the other way) by 4 minutes.I think 2 gorgs did it...but its still incredibly powerful.
OCs aren't really that useless,since it's pretty much a time-waster,which it will always do.
Good thing is that when it gets attacked you already know,so you can head there and kill the offender(s) provided you know how <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And 4 OCs are powerful enough to box marines into their base, I don't see why they really need a boost.
Besides the Marine turrets are fuglifyingly weak,one chomp from a skulk can take down 1 bar :O
I just love how some n00b players (still seems like there are a lot out there) pop up like 6 of them near the [first and only] hive, when we are losing RT's. I will go gorge whenever I can to drop an open res only to lose it 30 seconds later because nobody runs in when they hear that a RT is under attack. So, we can rest assured that 60 res worth of OC's will really defend that hive against the marines in a 8v2 RT game when they start coming for us... Yea.... right... Put that 60 res to better use: get a few chambers, and start a second hive, and I duno.... attack maybe?
To stop marine movement, you need to spend about 50-60 res; You could have gone fade with those resources. Tell me, what is better, a fade or 5 OC's? You could have gone ONOS to make a wall of lame.
The only place OC's are even remotely useful is at your hive, because the OC's are worth their cost to defend something like that as well as the fact that the OC's will not die, due to there being lots of alien support.
I've seen 2-3 OC's with gorge support fall to 3 marines. It's not hard to do. All it takes is a little medspam from the comm, and the marines will kill the gorge, and the OC's will fall as well. All it takes is roughy 16 res in medspam if the marines only have LMG's.
Also, in competetive play, OC's are never used outside of the hive, if at all... OC's are just too expensive for a 6 man team to produce. Turrets are never used also... but this is another discussion.
Perhaps make the cost of OC's and turrets fluctuate depending on how many players there are?
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+Oct 11 2003, 06:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Oct 11 2003, 06:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sorry for the rant. But I'm sure I'm not the only one who has noticed that OCs really arn't worth putting down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Don't worry about the rant <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
as someone who goes alien to mainly gorge, the OC is a valuable tool, if I put down a resnode, and then stash 3 dc's and drop a single OC, I can then gaurd my resnode and get kills while blocking marine access to places you would get to via area.
as a gorge I can take down one and two marines but with an OC nearby I just hop around and let them finish me off.
Chambers are not meant to stop tons of marines, they are meant to hold out until reinforcments come, same with marine sentries, they can't kill higher lifeforms, but they can hold out until more marines come.
and a carefully placed OC can cause havoc, not to mention slowly take down electrified res (while pestering the comm)
I have always felt that OCs were a waste. As said before, the only time you really have money to build them is later in the game when they are largely unnecessary.
At the beginning of the game, planting OCs, which a gorge can only build one at that time, would cripple the economy of the aliens. Also, 10 OCs is an onos, which is a FAR better investment.
I would like to see them cost 5, even if they were somwhat weaker. At least then you could build enough so that they could do something other than wave at the marines as they run by. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
10 OC is *not* an onos unless it is ONE gorge dropping them all. That's the thing. 5 OC's is not a fade, if it's two or three gorges dropping them, of five. 5 gorges dropping an OC each is just a 10 res cost for them individually, what could they have done with those 10 res that would be so much better (assuming you have level 3 upgrades).
Forlorn, this is (I assume) a discussion about pub play, not scrims or matches. In pub play, OC*s and Turrets are very useful if used competently.
Okay, HOW do you use OCs 'competently'. I want to know, for every single damn room in every single damn MAP, where to place the O chamber where it won't get easilly sniped (Easy because only about 10% of the chamber actually is lethal). So far everyone just says 'OMG OC R FINE U N00B OMG U SUK U R HAF TO PLAEC TEHM RITE!!!!1111!!1one'. So explain to us: HOW.
Let's take 'Laser Drilling' in Origin. Tell me how to place O chambers in there where they won't immediately get owned. You say: 'Put them in the corners closest to the marine spawn so they shoot marines as they come out.' Oh, I'm sorry, but you can just crouch in the corner of the hallway and snipe them.
In order for an O chamber to be unsnipable, you know what it takes? It takes either very very lucky (And few) overhangs or railings, or it takes a room the size of a football field. Not to mention an O chamber on the far side of laser drilling won't shoot marines coming down the hall because the range sucks so much.
Another map: VEIL. Oh boy this'll be fun. Not a single nook or cranny in this map. Tell me where to place O chambers where they'll kill 20+ marines like turrets do, and won't get taken down by an untouchable marine.
Finally you have yet to address the ULTIMATE OC killer: SHOTGUNS. 10 res a pop, a few medpacks, and the O chambers fall in less then 10 seconds. LESS THEN 10 SECONDS. That's the equivilant of a marine onos vs. alien defenses.
OC's r great defense for the aliens, so quit complaining <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Oct 13 2003, 11:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Oct 13 2003, 11:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Okay, HOW do you use OCs 'competently'. I want to know, for every single damn room in every single damn MAP, where to place the O chamber where it won't get easilly sniped (Easy because only about 10% of the chamber actually is lethal). So far everyone just says 'OMG OC R FINE U N00B OMG U SUK U R HAF TO PLAEC TEHM RITE!!!!1111!!1one'. So explain to us: HOW.
Let's take 'Laser Drilling' in Origin. Tell me how to place O chambers in there where they won't immediately get owned. You say: 'Put them in the corners closest to the marine spawn so they shoot marines as they come out.' Oh, I'm sorry, but you can just crouch in the corner of the hallway and snipe them.
In order for an O chamber to be unsnipable, you know what it takes? It takes either very very lucky (And few) overhangs or railings, or it takes a room the size of a football field. Not to mention an O chamber on the far side of laser drilling won't shoot marines coming down the hall because the range sucks so much.
Another map: VEIL. Oh boy this'll be fun. Not a single nook or cranny in this map. Tell me where to place O chambers where they'll kill 20+ marines like turrets do, and won't get taken down by an untouchable marine.
Finally you have yet to address the ULTIMATE OC killer: SHOTGUNS. 10 res a pop, a few medpacks, and the O chambers fall in less then 10 seconds. LESS THEN 10 SECONDS. That's the equivilant of a marine onos vs. alien defenses. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If a marine is sniping at an OC, he is slowed down. That is what OC's are good at. Plus, everyone on the alien team knows it is being attacked. In your example with the marine with a shotgun, he is still slowed down by about 10 seconds (or at least 5 seconds). Plus, according to you, a few med packs will be needed. That costs res for the marines. On top of that, the marine has less armor now for the next fight (probably no one has a welder until the marines have HA, and at that point a few OC's is nearly useless except as a warning). OC's buy you time plus give you warning. If they sneak by rather than killing them, they will take damage and be easier for everyone else to kill, or cost 4 res for medpacks.
<!--QuoteBegin--i'm lost+Oct 14 2003, 01:37 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Oct 14 2003, 01:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If a marine is sniping at an OC, he is slowed down. That is what OC's are good at. Plus, everyone on the alien team knows it is being attacked. In your example with the marine with a shotgun, he is still slowed down by about 10 seconds (or at least 5 seconds). Plus, according to you, a few med packs will be needed. That costs res for the marines. On top of that, the marine has less armor now for the next fight (probably no one has a welder until the marines have HA, and at that point a few OC's is nearly useless except as a warning). OC's buy you time plus give you warning. If they sneak by rather than killing them, they will take damage and be easier for everyone else to kill, or cost 4 res for medpacks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is, is that 10 res (per OC, mind you) worth it just to slow down a shotgunner (10 res again, + a few meds) for a few seconds? That one shotgunner can own many OCs, and even faster (thus requiring less meds) if you have more shotgunners. I don’t find it useful to spend so many resources <b>just</b> to slow them down so you can get reinforcements on the scene.
To be honest, I like to permagorge so I’ve spent quite a lot of time building OCs, and it is quite hard to put them up such that a LMG doesn’t stick his head (not usually a shotgunner, I try to put them down long corridors) out and hose them. Sometimes, however, the map isn’t conducive to suitable OC placement and you have problems once marines come through. I don’t know what the problem is with the OCs and so I don’t want to make any generalisations or unfounded comments, but I agree that something is wrong with them. Maybe after some more thought, something will pop into my head.
If turrets get 20+ kills then there's something wrong. Anyway, on to the examples..
Yes, a Marine close to MB on veil will be able to shoot any OC that isn't in a corner without the OC even firing at him, sniping as you say. If he uses the LMG it will take a *lot* of ammo, because of the spread, if he is using the pistol it will take a lot of time, because of the limited clip. So, you placing a single OC in an extremely long shooting-alley right outside Marine Base, such as Laser Drilling, probably won't pay off. So don't.
Placing 3-4 OC's and a couple of DC (in the roof for example or behind the wall), will lock it down if you have a couple of aliens there. Yes, placing ONE UNSUPPORTED OC will not work out. Neither would dropping a single turret (assuming it could function without a TF) anywhere.
Veil has some good spots for OC's, primarily West Skylights and Topographical. If you start in Sub or Pipeline, you can usually lock down one of only two exits from MB immediatly. Have say 5-6 people rush Topo (assuming you start in Pipeline), 3 gorge up and drop DC, the skulks chew the first Marines to arrive. They now know you're there so the next rush will be bigger. You have 3 DC and 3 Gorges healing, with a few skulks around, there is NO WAY they can take that without a huge investment. In a few seconds the gorges will have enough to drop an OC each. You now have 3 OC/DC there and everyone can leave the area if they want to. I suggest leaving a gorge or skulk to guard it though, and you have just locked down half of the Marines ways out of base. Forcing them to travel the whole left part of the Map before moving over to the central/right. That's a good use of OC.
Marines using the Rambo or Slash and Burn strat on you? Drop 2-3 OC's and a DC at the nodes you cap (cap fewer nodes, defend them better) and all of a sudden Marines are having a hard time taking out your nodes. If one comes under attack from 2-3 Marines, a single skulk can probably save it since he will enocounter hurt Marines, low on ammo or reloading, and while attacking he will be getting healed. That's a good use of OC's.
Marines have Jetpacks and are homing in on your hive. Drop a bunch of OC's around your hive. Skulks can't bite the jetpackers, Fades have a hard time catching them, lerks have trouble hitting them but look, the OC's are swatting them out of the sky. That's a good use of OC's.
Drop a single OC in a random spot on the map, then expect it to pay for itself because Marines are so dumb they just stand there until they die. That's a BAD use of OC's.
Comments
OC's would hit a Marine everytime in 2.0 and everybody bitched.
Flayra reduced the accuracy in 2.01, everybody bitched.
Try using the damn structures more tactically instead of just plunking one in the middle of a room where twenty Marines can shoot at it without being damaged. The idea of OC's is to have a suprise element. That element is much more enhanced when Sensory is in play however, being the 3rd favorite chamber amongst most people, it doesn't happen that often. If the Alien team is working together, many resource nodes can be capped in the beginning of the game and then 2 or 3 people can perma-Gorge and basically just put of defense everywhere.
The idea of OC's and Marine Turrets are to slow down the opposing team. You can't expect every OC or every Marine Turret to kill ANYTHING that passes by.
I also disagree with the opening statement. OC's are VERY VERY different than 1.04. Those spit balls they used to shoot? Haha! Now those never hit anything. With the spikes the OC's shoot now, they will hit any Marine within it's range with fairly good accuracy.
Give it a rest and think of new ways to place down OC's. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes not sense with OFFENSE chambers....sigh.
Especially when one considers that a welder can repair an HA from 0 to 290 in about 3 seconds.
Gonna have to go with this statement. Sure OC's costs seem to make them ineffective, but thats only because the use of an OC has changed. Its role in the battlefield had been redefined. From now on you guys are going ot have to use them in different ways to get the same level of effectiveness out of them. Do I know how to use them in the way I am speaking of? No. But will I experiment to find out what makes them more effective? Heck yea!
As for actual placement you can seriously hinder and kill small groups of marines with simple layout. The first tactic to use is backshooting.
This is basically where you shove the OC in such a place that the marines will have walked past it before it starts firing which means it studs them in the back once or twice before they even know its there XD
The second one is the multiple fronts idea; by having 2 or more OCs firing at the same spot at the same time from completely opposite directions the marines have trouble picking which one to take first and can't take them all in a oner. T-junctions are great for this as well as relatively wide rooms where you can just put an OC in each corner <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
OC's would hit a Marine everytime in 2.0 and everybody bitched.
Flayra reduced the accuracy in 2.01, everybody bitched.
Try using the damn structures more tactically instead of just plunking one in the middle of a room where twenty Marines can shoot at it without being damaged. The idea of OC's is to have a suprise element. That element is much more enhanced when Sensory is in play however, being the 3rd favorite chamber amongst most people, it doesn't happen that often. If the Alien team is working together, many resource nodes can be capped in the beginning of the game and then 2 or 3 people can perma-Gorge and basically just put of defense everywhere.
The idea of OC's and Marine Turrets are to slow down the opposing team. You can't expect every OC or every Marine Turret to kill ANYTHING that passes by.
I also disagree with the opening statement. OC's are VERY VERY different than 1.04. Those spit balls they used to shoot? Haha! Now those never hit anything. With the spikes the OC's shoot now, they will hit any Marine within it's range with fairly good accuracy.
Give it a rest and think of new ways to place down OC's. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This makes not sense with OFFENSE chambers....sigh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What? Please explain your reason.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Someone else suggested this in some earlier incarnation of this same conflict and was hounded for it like no tomorrow. But I still agree with the idea.
im SO with you guys on that one, im tried of this ghetto **** marine at the corner of a wall shooting down an OC with great ease.
i say we make OC's take 1/2 dmg from lmg/hmg/shottie
least that OC will live longer enough for some one to aid it...oh wait
oc's were meant to fight and defend, not be defended. that just kills it.
its like spawning MC's all over the map and having to defend them because they are suppose to help
I've personally taken down non-DC WoL's like this and even I, looking on the situation as a marine, think it is too much.
<!--QuoteBegin--bLuISh+ right after I posted--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bLuISh @ right after I posted)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3. Make it impossible for a marine to shoot an OC without being hit by the OC. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heard this idea somewhere else on some topic other than NS, but yeah definetly applies here.
hints:
place them so that they shoot the marines in the back
place them so that mltiple groups begin fireing at the same time
dont make a wall but line a hallway
use dcs/scs
place them so that the marines will have a hard time retreating - ladders
make sure that they cant be seen untill the begin fireing
- make sure that it takes time for the marine to figure out what is happening
stay with the big sets and spit/heal as needed
lure marines into traps
be creative
ocs are fine.
i recently went gorge in generator on nothing and with 2 skulks helping me out i plopped down 2 ocs and a dc. the ocs WERE AROUND THE CORNERS so marines had to come in to shoot at them. this = dead marines. half the marine team kept attacking but they couldn't break through. we went on to win the game because of my ocs allowing us to hold gen. skulks can play much more "dodgy" with ocs around, cause with healing for the skulks, marines just die from the ocs and heal spray after spending their clip shooting at various targets in the room and not doing much.
ocs are very good in the beginning to middle game when someone has 25-30 res and the team needs to secure a strategic position, and you already have a lerk or 2. it's even better for a gorge who rt'd at the game start and survived long enough to accumulate the 20 res while healing skulks etc.
go go metamod scripts!
<a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/' target='_blank'>modns.org</a>
juice: nice one, its really fun when you place ocs in really dark corners ... WTH WHERE ARE THEY?! OMJ H4X
Marines shooting them without being hit. Well duh, build them so that aint possible. Yeah, most times a Marine can either strafe-shoot it, or peek just enough to see a part of it without being hit. This takes time, time that you can use to get there and find a hurt/reloading Marine. THAT is a function. The exact same thing is true for turrets. A lerk can kill a single turret without being hit. A skulk can easily take down a turret without dying, with regen or cara, two.
With the popular Rambo strategies well placed OC's and *conservative* play from the Aliens is a very valid strategy. Instead of capping 6 res immediatly, and losing most of them, cap 2-3, get some OC's and D or S there too. Suddelnly, you have time to attack the Marines nodes instead of defending your own, and when defending your own, you have fire support and healing/cloaking.
Are people *actively* trying to come up with things to complain about? Seems like it.
Good thing is that when it gets attacked you already know,so you can head there and kill the offender(s) provided you know how <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And 4 OCs are powerful enough to box marines into their base, I don't see why they really need a boost.
Besides the Marine turrets are fuglifyingly weak,one chomp from a skulk can take down 1 bar :O
To stop marine movement, you need to spend about 50-60 res; You could have gone fade with those resources. Tell me, what is better, a fade or 5 OC's? You could have gone ONOS to make a wall of lame.
The only place OC's are even remotely useful is at your hive, because the OC's are worth their cost to defend something like that as well as the fact that the OC's will not die, due to there being lots of alien support.
I've seen 2-3 OC's with gorge support fall to 3 marines. It's not hard to do. All it takes is a little medspam from the comm, and the marines will kill the gorge, and the OC's will fall as well. All it takes is roughy 16 res in medspam if the marines only have LMG's.
Also, in competetive play, OC's are never used outside of the hive, if at all... OC's are just too expensive for a 6 man team to produce. Turrets are never used also... but this is another discussion.
Perhaps make the cost of OC's and turrets fluctuate depending on how many players there are?
Don't worry about the rant <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
as someone who goes alien to mainly gorge, the OC is a valuable tool, if I put down a resnode, and then stash 3 dc's and drop a single OC, I can then gaurd my resnode and get kills while blocking marine access to places you would get to via area.
as a gorge I can take down one and two marines but with an OC nearby I just hop around and let them finish me off.
Chambers are not meant to stop tons of marines, they are meant to hold out until reinforcments come, same with marine sentries, they can't kill higher lifeforms, but they can hold out until more marines come.
and a carefully placed OC can cause havoc, not to mention slowly take down electrified res (while pestering the comm)
they are much improved over 1.04 turrets
At the beginning of the game, planting OCs, which a gorge can only build one at that time, would cripple the economy of the aliens. Also, 10 OCs is an onos, which is a FAR better investment.
I would like to see them cost 5, even if they were somwhat weaker. At least then you could build enough so that they could do something other than wave at the marines as they run by. <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hoarding for onos necessitates that you don't evolve nor drop chambers. The res comparison cannot be made in this situation.
Second, if you have 100 res, you're probably going to go Onos because its endgame or close to it.
OCs have their place, its fairly obvious.
Forlorn, this is (I assume) a discussion about pub play, not scrims or matches. In pub play, OC*s and Turrets are very useful if used competently.
Let's take 'Laser Drilling' in Origin. Tell me how to place O chambers in there where they won't immediately get owned. You say: 'Put them in the corners closest to the marine spawn so they shoot marines as they come out.' Oh, I'm sorry, but you can just crouch in the corner of the hallway and snipe them.
In order for an O chamber to be unsnipable, you know what it takes? It takes either very very lucky (And few) overhangs or railings, or it takes a room the size of a football field. Not to mention an O chamber on the far side of laser drilling won't shoot marines coming down the hall because the range sucks so much.
Another map: VEIL. Oh boy this'll be fun. Not a single nook or cranny in this map. Tell me where to place O chambers where they'll kill 20+ marines like turrets do, and won't get taken down by an untouchable marine.
Finally you have yet to address the ULTIMATE OC killer: SHOTGUNS. 10 res a pop, a few medpacks, and the O chambers fall in less then 10 seconds. LESS THEN 10 SECONDS. That's the equivilant of a marine onos vs. alien defenses.
Let's take 'Laser Drilling' in Origin. Tell me how to place O chambers in there where they won't immediately get owned. You say: 'Put them in the corners closest to the marine spawn so they shoot marines as they come out.' Oh, I'm sorry, but you can just crouch in the corner of the hallway and snipe them.
In order for an O chamber to be unsnipable, you know what it takes? It takes either very very lucky (And few) overhangs or railings, or it takes a room the size of a football field. Not to mention an O chamber on the far side of laser drilling won't shoot marines coming down the hall because the range sucks so much.
Another map: VEIL. Oh boy this'll be fun. Not a single nook or cranny in this map. Tell me where to place O chambers where they'll kill 20+ marines like turrets do, and won't get taken down by an untouchable marine.
Finally you have yet to address the ULTIMATE OC killer: SHOTGUNS. 10 res a pop, a few medpacks, and the O chambers fall in less then 10 seconds. LESS THEN 10 SECONDS. That's the equivilant of a marine onos vs. alien defenses. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If a marine is sniping at an OC, he is slowed down. That is what OC's are good at. Plus, everyone on the alien team knows it is being attacked. In your example with the marine with a shotgun, he is still slowed down by about 10 seconds (or at least 5 seconds). Plus, according to you, a few med packs will be needed. That costs res for the marines. On top of that, the marine has less armor now for the next fight (probably no one has a welder until the marines have HA, and at that point a few OC's is nearly useless except as a warning). OC's buy you time plus give you warning. If they sneak by rather than killing them, they will take damage and be easier for everyone else to kill, or cost 4 res for medpacks.
The problem is, is that 10 res (per OC, mind you) worth it just to slow down a shotgunner (10 res again, + a few meds) for a few seconds? That one shotgunner can own many OCs, and even faster (thus requiring less meds) if you have more shotgunners. I don’t find it useful to spend so many resources <b>just</b> to slow them down so you can get reinforcements on the scene.
To be honest, I like to permagorge so I’ve spent quite a lot of time building OCs, and it is quite hard to put them up such that a LMG doesn’t stick his head (not usually a shotgunner, I try to put them down long corridors) out and hose them. Sometimes, however, the map isn’t conducive to suitable OC placement and you have problems once marines come through. I don’t know what the problem is with the OCs and so I don’t want to make any generalisations or unfounded comments, but I agree that something is wrong with them. Maybe after some more thought, something will pop into my head.
Yes, a Marine close to MB on veil will be able to shoot any OC that isn't in a corner without the OC even firing at him, sniping as you say. If he uses the LMG it will take a *lot* of ammo, because of the spread, if he is using the pistol it will take a lot of time, because of the limited clip. So, you placing a single OC in an extremely long shooting-alley right outside Marine Base, such as Laser Drilling, probably won't pay off. So don't.
Placing 3-4 OC's and a couple of DC (in the roof for example or behind the wall), will lock it down if you have a couple of aliens there. Yes, placing ONE UNSUPPORTED OC will not work out. Neither would dropping a single turret (assuming it could function without a TF) anywhere.
Veil has some good spots for OC's, primarily West Skylights and Topographical. If you start in Sub or Pipeline, you can usually lock down one of only two exits from MB immediatly. Have say 5-6 people rush Topo (assuming you start in Pipeline), 3 gorge up and drop DC, the skulks chew the first Marines to arrive. They now know you're there so the next rush will be bigger. You have 3 DC and 3 Gorges healing, with a few skulks around, there is NO WAY they can take that without a huge investment. In a few seconds the gorges will have enough to drop an OC each. You now have 3 OC/DC there and everyone can leave the area if they want to. I suggest leaving a gorge or skulk to guard it though, and you have just locked down half of the Marines ways out of base. Forcing them to travel the whole left part of the Map before moving over to the central/right. That's a good use of OC.
Marines using the Rambo or Slash and Burn strat on you? Drop 2-3 OC's and a DC at the nodes you cap (cap fewer nodes, defend them better) and all of a sudden Marines are having a hard time taking out your nodes. If one comes under attack from 2-3 Marines, a single skulk can probably save it since he will enocounter hurt Marines, low on ammo or reloading, and while attacking he will be getting healed. That's a good use of OC's.
Marines have Jetpacks and are homing in on your hive. Drop a bunch of OC's around your hive. Skulks can't bite the jetpackers, Fades have a hard time catching them, lerks have trouble hitting them but look, the OC's are swatting them out of the sky. That's a good use of OC's.
Drop a single OC in a random spot on the map, then expect it to pay for itself because Marines are so dumb they just stand there until they die. That's a BAD use of OC's.