Ie Popularity
<div class="IPBDescription">Fork from NS Nancy remake thread</div> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cagey, those results may very well be skewed out of proportion. Most alternative browsers, opera for example, have the option to identify as other browsers. Right now at this very moment in time, my Opera is set to identify as IE 6.0.
I think a poll in Off topic would suit a browser debate more. If anyone wishes to continue, make a new topic over in off topic<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's possible that this could make a slight difference, but...
Check out this link:
<a href='http://www.nedstatbasic.net/s?tab=1&link=5&id=2506356' target='_blank'>http://www.nedstatbasic.net/s?tab=1&link=5&id=2506356</a>
According to that, IE 5+6 make up 90.4% of hits to my site. Even if some people are using masquerading, I severely doubt that it take the IE percentage under 50%...
You guys are sort of wrong though, even with the hack, IE doesn't support PNG alpha channels. It's not IE that's doing the supporting, it's an ActiveX control, which is a seperate control embedded in the web page.
But, it's true that the effect of IE support is certainly there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
IIRC, the javascript code to add the support correctly determines if the browser is IE before applying the fix. What are the chances we could get Joev to add the fix to the Invision header for the NS forums?
I think a poll in Off topic would suit a browser debate more. If anyone wishes to continue, make a new topic over in off topic<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->It's possible that this could make a slight difference, but...
Check out this link:
<a href='http://www.nedstatbasic.net/s?tab=1&link=5&id=2506356' target='_blank'>http://www.nedstatbasic.net/s?tab=1&link=5&id=2506356</a>
According to that, IE 5+6 make up 90.4% of hits to my site. Even if some people are using masquerading, I severely doubt that it take the IE percentage under 50%...
You guys are sort of wrong though, even with the hack, IE doesn't support PNG alpha channels. It's not IE that's doing the supporting, it's an ActiveX control, which is a seperate control embedded in the web page.
But, it's true that the effect of IE support is certainly there <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
IIRC, the javascript code to add the support correctly determines if the browser is IE before applying the fix. What are the chances we could get Joev to add the fix to the Invision header for the NS forums?
Comments
Of course, Mozilla is written by and for communists, which makes it highly unpatriotic, unless you live in Cuba.
Of course when say things like that without saying why you thought it sucked or what version you used, one is forced to assume you are either a hopeless MS zelot or never actually tried it.... or both.
Universities, Colleges, schools; if you're going to surf the web you're really going to have to swallow your geeky pride and use IE if you're using computers there and all that just to come home to a different browser?
I've been using this thing for years now and I'm not in the mood for learning how to use something new and spangly just to look at stuff this thing lets me see anyways. I've tried an old version of opera; it was clunky, annoying, I had to try and remember all my favourites and re-enter them and I <b>hate</b> windows within windows. The only cool thing about it was the gestures but they weren't enough to stop me going back to the neat old IE I know and love <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
*Edit*
I kinda only wanna do this for tabs though, and I've heard of stuff which adds tabs to IE.. but been unable to actually find it...
explain this further, please.
I myself uses IE with a few helper programs, I have no problems with it, so I wont change till i see a dramatically better browser (Ive tried mozilla and its firebird variation, neither is MUCH better)
Web browsing is pretty damned straight forward, theres really nothing to relearn. All my tech support clients made the required switch to Mozilla without a problem. And favorites are automatically imported from IE by both Opera and Mozilla.
<b>Edit:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Explain futher please<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well just as an exapmple, it doesn't deal with MIME types proporly, as expressed here:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->HTTP is the protocol for the World Wide Web. It provides requirements that all Web browsers must meet; if browsers developed their own protocol instead, communication between computers would break down and the Internet would collapse into anarchy.
Internet Explorer does not follow the HTTP protocol.
When a server sends a file to you through HTTP, it identifies the file as a Web page, text file, picture file, movie, or other type of file. HTTP uses the Content-Type header to do this. The protocol for HTTP/1.1 states:
If and only if the media type is not given by a Content-Type field, the recipient MAY attempt to guess the media type via inspection of its content and/or the name extension(s) of the URI used to identify the resource.
Internet Explorer does not follow these rules; it guesses the media type of every file it receives. Even if I send it a file with "Content-Type: image/jpeg", if Internet Explorer thinks it's a text file, it will open it like a text file! If in the future Internet Explorer starts identifying its Content-Types incorrectly, this will cause a huge dilemma with webmasters. Because it does not follow this clear protocol, Internet Explorer cannot be technically identified as a "web browser".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also its CSS2 suppor is really lacking.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Internet Explorer was one of the first to add support for CSS but 2001 they have not added any new support for CSS. While their support was comparable in 2001, the other web browsers (such as Mozilla and Opera) have been fixing bugs and adding increase support. With fewer bugs, designers will be able to code faster and easier. Increase support of CSS will allow designers increasingly more stunning and dynamic layouts. But with Internet Explorer's current buggy incomplete support and no updates on their support, for web pages authors this is a thorn in their side.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
BTW these quotes were taken from: ashitaka-san.home.comcast.net/yayrant/ieharmful.html
which is the first hit on google when searching for "Internet Explorer violates web standards"
<b>More Edit:</b>
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Uh.. I've been considering going to mozilla... which version do you guys recommend...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why, the lates stable version of course. If you don't want to have the built in email, irc, web page creater, ect. Get Mozilla-Firebird as opposed to the regular mozilla.
switching to another browser would still require time and yes it does take relearning =P
all the buttons and icons you're so used to are spaced out differently or have different icons which is kinda annoying and confusing a little bit.
What about stuff like this board? I've set IE to log me in automatically and I've been doing it so long I can't even remember my silly password. If I switched to mozzarella or opera would it remember my login for me or would I have to hastle myself to remember it all again? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, nobody's mentioned netscape o.O
what's that like?
I have tried mozila, phoenix, and Opera
I use Phoenix when I am in Linux (naimly b/c It was already set up)
I am lazy, installing google tool bar is much simpler then going through the pain in the but it is to make sure IE dies properly and that only the 'other' browser works properly
so yah, IE works fine, I have never had any problems with it (out side of popups)
and as for those that call me an 'ms zelot' corection, your the zelot, you are the one who believes NOONE should use MS products (or atleast IE)
I use what ever products are the esiest to use for me (note I run win2K thus, if IE has a problem, it will be fixed with my periodic windows update, I don't have to update my browser seperatly)
It is this anti MS BS that makes MS a worse options often. Very rarly do people target nonMS products for malicious hacks, despite the fact that many of them have had even WORSE security holes then any MS product (ME dosn't count, it is a piece of junk, MS realized this and discontinued it)
so yah, untill you can show me somewhere that IE is honestly bad or keeps me from reading/posting here regularly I will not feel the need to change (and Tabs in NOT a good enugh reason, I don't like tabs)
[edit] Netscape bites, I ussed to use it alot but then it stoped being able to handel all of the MS bassed products and thus was not a reliable browser due to the inability to view many pages properly.
It might have changed back now, but I don't know[/edit]
switching to another browser would still require time and yes it does take relearning =P
all the buttons and icons you're so used to are spaced out differently or have different icons which is kinda annoying and confusing a little bit.
What about stuff like this board? I've set IE to log me in automatically and I've been doing it so long I can't even remember my silly password. If I switched to mozzarella or opera would it remember my login for me or would I have to hastle myself to remember it all again? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Actually, nobody's mentioned netscape o.O
what's that like? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You could always use the IE theme for mozilla to get identical icons. And yes, changing browser settings is different than in IE, but if your smart enough to know how to change IE's settings your smart enough to navigate a menu and change mozilla's as well. The only thing that makes IE easier is that it is installed with Windows.
If you were to change to mozilla you would probably have to remember your password, as mozilla stores cookies in a different place then IE (not sure if there the same format or not though, you might just be able to copy the cookies out of your IE cookie directory into your mozilla cookie dir...).
I have tried mozila, phoenix, and Opera
I use Phoenix when I am in Linux (naimly b/c It was already set up)
I am lazy, installing google tool bar is much simpler then going through the pain in the but it is to make sure IE dies properly and that only the 'other' browser works properly
so yah, IE works fine, I have never had any problems with it (out side of popups)
and as for those that call me an 'ms zelot' corection, your the zelot, you are the one who believes NOONE should use MS products (or atleast IE)
I use what ever products are the esiest to use for me (note I run win2K thus, if IE has a problem, it will be fixed with my periodic windows update, I don't have to update my browser seperatly)
It is this anti MS BS that makes MS a worse options often. Very rarly do people target nonMS products for malicious hacks, despite the fact that many of them have had even WORSE security holes then any MS product (ME dosn't count, it is a piece of junk, MS realized this and discontinued it)
so yah, untill you can show me somewhere that IE is honestly bad or keeps me from reading/posting here regularly I will not feel the need to change (and Tabs in NOT a good enugh reason, I don't like tabs)
[edit] Netscape bites, I ussed to use it alot but then it stoped being able to handel all of the MS bassed products and thus was not a reliable browser due to the inability to view many pages properly.
It might have changed back now, but I don't know[/edit] <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think anyone should use IE because it isn't standards compliant, not because i'm a zelot.
Don't drag this off topic about and make it about MS vs non-MS security, especially because I would completely pwn you there. Trust me.
I've already showed why IE is bad.
If you don't feel the need to change because your too lazy, good for you, support broken standards, its your right.
EDIT:
oh and Gem, Netscape is basically Mozilla + some proprietary code, i'm not even sure whats differen't in it.
What was your point again? o.O
What was your point again? o.O <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I guess my point is that IE supports broken standards, that browsers that support real standards are better, and that lazy and unknowledgable people are the only reason why the broken standards still exist.
explain this further, please.
I myself uses IE with a few helper programs, I have no problems with it, so I wont change till i see a dramatically better browser (Ive tried mozilla and its firebird variation, neither is MUCH better) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
seconded, how bout explaining said standards and how they will effect me.
If you can show that IEs lack of support of said standard is actualy harming my ussage then I will consider switching.
Again, most of the 'advantages' of non IE browsers are things that I do not need/want and therfore I don't feel like making the switch.
As a side note, I do use linux also, but ONLY when I am working. I like having multiple desktops, Emacs, and phoenix to work with when I am coding
explain this further, please.
I myself uses IE with a few helper programs, I have no problems with it, so I wont change till i see a dramatically better browser (Ive tried mozilla and its firebird variation, neither is MUCH better) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
seconded, how bout explaining said standards and how they will effect me.
If you can show that IEs lack of support of said standard is actualy harming my ussage then I will consider switching.
Again, most of the 'advantages' of non IE browsers are things that I do not need/want and therfore I don't feel like making the switch.
As a side note, I do use linux also, but ONLY when I am working. I like having multiple desktops, Emacs, and phoenix to work with when I am coding <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already answered him in an edit to one of my posts above.
Of course it doesn't really harm your usage, you're following the One Microsoft Way. For those of us that like to be able to chose other products IE is hurting the web.
You don't feel like making the switch? Good for you, I fail to see how that has any relivence the second time its posted.
But did it take the auto-login from IE or would I have to login again so that mozzy could remember it for me? Because I sure as heck don't remember my password ^^;
You mean you didn't have to put your password in again? Thats awesome, I didn't know that Moz would import the IE passwords file too.
BTW, this post marks my 256th. For we computer scientists thats a magic number so I'm gonna celebrate by seeing how many 2-liters of sprite I can drink within 20 minutes.
um... well... it feels a lot slower than IE for one o.O
I hate tabs but I turned them off anyways and I abused the Ctrl & cut without bothering to paste to get rid of an undeletable folder but overall it's not too bad. Feels a bit icky and rough around the edges but otherwise it's pretty much IE =/
I don't see a big difference outside the above, so what makes this better than IE? ~blink~
You mean you didn't have to put your password in again? Thats awesome, I didn't know that Moz would import the IE passwords file too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed a word in my post. I said it did NOT automatically log me in, so I DID have to enter my password. The information for automatically logging you into accounts (forums, e-mail, etc.) is generally stored in cookies. That was the relevance of the rest of my first post. Another note: if you decide to delete all of your cookies, you will have to log in again.
You mean you didn't have to put your password in again? Thats awesome, I didn't know that Moz would import the IE passwords file too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You missed a word in my post. I said it did NOT automatically log me in, so I DID have to enter my password. The information for automatically logging you into accounts (forums, e-mail, etc.) is generally stored in cookies. That was the relevance of the rest of my first post. Another note: if you decide to delete all of your cookies, you will have to log in again. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ACK... thats like the fifth time I've missed "not"s in peoples posts.
Anyway:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm a nublet to this whole discussion, Ive never tried any other browsers, but I've also never had problems with IE. What is the point of switching? Aside from "MS Sucks man, down with the system!"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being that you follow the One Microsoft Way™ you wouldn't see advantages (other than built in popup-blocking and working CSS2). For those of us who like to have a choice in what software we use Open Standards are very important. IE doesn't follow standards so I don't support it, and I don't recommend its use.
Some examples of features in other browsers I don't see in IE (some of these are extentions available through mozilla's extention site):
Mouse gestures - They rock.
Tabbed Browsing - Rocks, if your into that sort of thing.
Flash Click to View - Stops nasty flash adds from wasting my prescious bandwidth.
Built in popup blocking
Some or all of those may be available as plugins to IE, I wouldn't know.
In short. If you like IE and have no desire to support open standards, keep using IE.
If you want to support open standards, or one of these features interests you, use another borwser.
Oh, did I mention that I can use the 'back' button without worrying if the pages I'm reversing to will run harmful code, if I'm coming from a 'trusted' page, with that trusted page's security options?
Hmm. Mozilla Mail... the 'preview pane' of which will not auto-execute any inbound virii that are scripted to take advantage of MS' wonderful foresight in having it parse scripts without asking the user, or even giving the option to say 'no'...
Honestly, Mozilla is quite a bit faster than IE. The only part where it *isn't* faster is on the initial load... and that's just because it actually loads everything it needs at the outset, instead of giving you a window and continuing to load in the background. Admittedly, Moz isn't as fast as Opera... but it doesn't have any banner ads (even the small ones the more recent free-Opera binary has integrated).
I'll put it in a way that non-geeks will be more likely to relate to:
There are cars. You're handed one when you wake up one day. Most people will be lazy and not look around, using their car for general runabout.
Problem is, this particular car has no seatbelts, an exhaust leak, a gas leak, and a bent steering column. It also guzzles gas like nobody's business, and the engine takes five minutes to warm up. It's PAINFULLY unsafe and unreliable. But everyone has one, as they were all handed it when they woke up. And the majority of people don't know too much about cars, so they're happy it gets them from here to there most of the time. Eventually.
Now, there are other people driving other kinds of cars. The best part is, most of them you just have to drive (or walk) over and get. Sure, the radio doesn't have your presets, and the speedometer uses a different font, and the key is shaped a little differently. But they don't have the leaks, they've got seatbelts, and you can steer without having to worry about sliding off the road on a sharp curve. Some of them even go faster, or have a *lot* more options, most of which are also free. Heck, most of them will import your radio presets magically when you bring them home.
(As a supporting note, here on the N-S.org forums, ONLY people using IE ever get the 'page could not be displayed' errors, from what I'm hearing. If you're using Mozilla, Opera, or an alternate browser <NOT set to mimic IE> and have gotten the Search Page error, speak up!)
Of course *technically* mozilla still, but I like it.
Do you know why? Because somewhere between 90-95% of internet users use it. There are standards (w3c, for example) and then there's "getting stuff to work fine for your target users". And if my "target users" are going to be using IE, then i'm going to be using it. This doesn't mean to say that i don't test in Opera and Mozilla, but that's because i hate the applications.
Lets take a look at the main competition to IE, those being Opera and Mozilla. Mozilla is basically Netscape repackaged with a fancy new front end. But from using it i noticed a lot of the same errors with parsing CSS, for example, that i noticed with Netscape, needless to say i uninstalled it. Then about a year or so later i tried it again, same thing, uninstalled.
Opera on the other hand was a bit more refreshing to use, but because of my hatred for the tabular browser windows, the stupid advert and the popup blocker blocking any window that pops up (including those specifically opened by sites, be it news, image windows, whatever) i realised it has no extra functions over IE, except it has a stupid advert and slower loading times.
So i ask you, do i trade my slimline, lightweight and competant browser for a bulky, badly designed browser with a cluttered interface, or worse, Netscape repackaged, or do i stick with what is actually the better product?
Oh, guess that makes me a microsoft fanboy doesn't it.... No, wait, that just makes me sane.
On the other hand, i do run Opera under linux, but that's a different story....
I think I just sold that car...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, how about some background. I'm a web developer. Part of my work is to support all browsers and enforce as much standardisation as possible. And i use Internet Explorer.
Do you know why? Because somewhere between 90-95% of internet users use it. There are standards (w3c, for example) and then there's "getting stuff to work fine for your target users". And if my "target users" are going to be using IE, then i'm going to be using it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, thats the problem. Microsoft knows they have 95% market dominance and so they intentionally violate standards because people like you will code to them anyway and everybody else would have to break standards to render your page proporly.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Lets take a look at the main competition to IE, those being Opera and Mozilla. Mozilla is basically Netscape repackaged with a fancy new front end. But from using it i noticed a lot of the same errors with parsing CSS, for example, that i noticed with Netscape, needless to say i uninstalled it. Then about a year or so later i tried it again, same thing, uninstalled.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm curious, would you care to share exactly what this parsing problem is? Are you sure mozilla is doing it wrong and not IE?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Opera on the other hand was a bit more refreshing to use, but because of my hatred for the tabular browser windows, the stupid advert and the popup blocker blocking any window that pops up (including those specifically opened by sites, be it news, image windows, whatever) i realised it has no extra functions over IE, except it has a stupid advert and slower loading times.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...and mouse gestures, tabbed browsing, and popup blocking. Just because you don't like the features doesn't mean they aren't there. If you don't like those features fine, use IE.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So i ask you, do i trade my slimline, lightweight and competant browser for a bulky, badly designed browser with a cluttered interface, or worse, Netscape repackaged, or do i stick with what is actually the better product?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its only a better product as far as you are concened. You completely fail to back up the idea that either Mozila or Opera's interfaces are 'cluttered', or that they are 'bulky'.