maybe just nerfing the electrify attack that a single vannilla skulk full healthed could take about 90% of the hp of the node.. it means a skulk cant kill it but 2 or fade or anything higher can.. its 2 deadly.. and it could reduce the slash and burn method..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->maybe just nerfing the electrify attack that a single vannilla skulk full healthed could take about 90% of the hp of the node.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err, iceman, that would make electrification absolutly useless.
Again, the main problem is not the marines expanding and electrifying. It's losing your own nodes. The "hold few but defend them well" method does seem to work quite well I can testify to that. If both sides can hold around half the res on the map it makes for interesting battles. Still, an alien node is just so fragile compared to a marine node. I wil give it some more time though'; it would seem that this tactic can be countered, it just takes some new thinking.
Fades certainly play a NECESSARY part of 2.01 strategy, with their ability to take down elec rts and act independently with 2nd hive.
I don't see how building prices should be altered - in small games the arms lab may be "expensive" but in small games the upgrades offered can annihilate anything up to and including Onos. In bigger games, where you can be facing half an alien team of fades or better, arms labs are "cheaper" and rightly so, because you need those upgrades.
On the alien side, small games = insanely high res and very little rfk - because building and evolving has to be done faster. In big games, res comes in slower but is compensated by the RFK of marines. In big games, proportionally more people can go gorge, which means individual gorges need to spend LESS (barring the hive hoarder).
So it all balances.
As for MS rush strats, a whole bunch of skulks can take out the elec protected IPs, and if you've 2-3 skulks plus gorge MS goes down rather quickly, and if you've any wit you'll charge about trying to find their relocate.
IMHO a clever adaptation of the above is to locate the possible marine relocate and THEN nail the rine spawn, so that you're not running around trying to find the relocation for 2 minutes.
Save for a hive and get MCs up ASAP. An electrified RT is nothing against a bile bombing gorge. Problem is, no one wants to save for a hive for some reason.
Here's pretty much the deciding factor it seems for most games: If marines get one res tower over aliens after three minutes, the marines are going to win. If aliens get second hive and 3DCs/3MCs in under three minutes, aliens win. The rest of the game will just be a rough struggle, depending on how well the marines/aliens have defended their structures.
HAMBoneProbably the best CommanderJoin Date: 2003-04-02Member: 15139Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
I agree with typhon, pub commanders finally figured it out and now the aliens have to play catchup. If its any consolation, clan play still seems to favor aliens. Try the gorge gang. The other thing ive noticed in the few pub games I play is that nobody really wants to go gorge or drop a hive, always alot of fades and many times the fades are bad and they die almost instantly. If a good marine commander is shouting out orders and the aliens are just ramboing around as skulk saving their res then they deserve to lose imo.
For what I have noticed about this whole issue that it is still very highly dependant on the skill of the players on each team as well as any balance issues that exist.
That said, I believe there are a few good options to take in general to stop the slash and burn strategy. Some are more useful than others in given situations.
1. Alien Choke Points. Most skulks have two things in mind, kill marine base, stop marines from killing alien stuff. So, they attack marine base until something they own is under attack, and then they rush to defend it. This has worked in many previous versions, but now, since the RT's have such little HP and marines have finally become organized in their movements, this is no longer an option. (This has all be discussed before) However, a very viable option is to not attack the marine base, and at the same time not rush to the defense of something that is under attack. This can be done through choke points. Pick a spot, there are places in every map, where a gorge and a couple skulks can easily choke off major points of interest on the map. The idea is not only to stall marines, but it keeps them bottled up. This keeps lone rambo marines from rushing around destroying/building rt's, and it keeps the marines isolated down to the rt's that are on their side of the chokepoint. This way, alien players are not only defending what they own, they are keeping marine expansion to a minimum. It has been said that OT's really aren't that useful in stopping a group of marines, BUT a few OT's plus a DT plus a skulk or two will most definitely stop vanilla marines. Keep a gorge there to heal the skulks/towers and provide a little ranged support and you basically h ave an impervious wall that the only way the marines can defeat is with siege. Yet to siege it, they have to spend the Res to build up the siege base, and in the meantime, they aren't slashing and burning nor are they collecting a lot of res. Choke points are best set up in areas that MUST be accessed (w/o jetpacks) for the marines to pass. They are even better set up next to RT's that are very close to the marine base.
2. Gorge = power. In general, I have noticed that people have really lost faith in the gorge. This is a big mistake as the Gorge is now more powerful than ever. The gorge has more offensive capability, more defensive capability, and more maneuverability than it ever did before. More importantly, it seems that since the addition of bile bomb to the Gorge's aresenal, many folks have forgotten why the Gorge used to be powerful before he was given bile bomb. The old "Gorge Siege" is a very useful tactic versus slash and burn. A gorge siege is not done with bile bomb rather it is done by the Gorge building OT's and DT's to combat marine buildings such as turrets and electrified rt's. This strategy is even more effective now that OT's are much more accurate than they were in the old days. The main complaint that people have now about slash and burn is that even attacking the marine base while no marines are there is not a viable solution since the marines simply stack their main base buildings around one electrified TF thus making each buidling invulnerable to skulk attack. However, this does not make it invulnerable to a gorge siege. 2 gorges dropping 2 OT's, 2 skulks, and a DT when they get the res, and bam, you have annihliated the marine main base while they were off slash and burning. Even as they spawn in the OT's will massacre them as well as the skulks jumping in and out of combat while being healed by Gorges. If they attempt to come back from slash and burn to attack the base by most standards it will be far to late. This strategy is even further amplified by the fact that in order for slash and burn to work properly, Marines rarely set up much base defense. (They need starting res pool to build more RT's.) Thus they don't put up turrets (or more than 2 or 3 which is no problem to the gorge siege), they don't have many marines guarding their base, and they don't have the res to simply relocate with any efficiency. None of this even mentions a Gorge dropping one OT to take out a marine RT that is electrified. Sure, it won't take it out immediately, but while it is working, the Gorge can go off and do other things. The only limitation to the Gorge Siege is of course resources, but I contend that in the early game (given a decent team size) that you have plenty of res to gorge siege a relatively undefended marine base taking minimal loss and having maximum gain.
3. Lerk = power. More now than ever, Alien should travel in squads and those squads should consist of combined arms. having trouble getting the marines out of an area in the early game? That's why the lerk is there with the gas cloud. So long as they aren't in heavy armor, the lerk can keep marines out of a fortified position and either attacking the lerk or running around in confusion. Add a small gorge siege and a skulk or two and you can pretty much remove a marine prescence from any area. (Including their main base) This idea along with idea number 2 rely on that you don't really care much if the marines are slash and burning. What good is slash and burn if it nets them more of a loss than a gain? This is not to mention that lerks can also attack electrified buildings with immpunity.
4. Sensory chambers. People still have a tendancy to forego the sensory chamber. The sensory chamber is a very very powerful tool now that you can move and be stealthed while you are near one. People forego the sensory because it provides no real benefit unless you happen to be standing next to one. Yet, if you combine sensory chambers with choke points you have a very deadly tool. The immediate reaction to the new sensory chamber is to place a cloaking field over the marine main base so that you can attack into their main base with immpunity. This is a mistake, and it is the reason that sensory chambers have been so loathed. Rather, build sensory chambers at choke points (preferably if your choke points are at RTs that are the closest RTs to the marine main base. This will allow cloaked skulks to rain pain on marines who are attempting to slash and burn. The ability to just walk up to a marine and start biting him w/o him being able to shoot at you until you start killing him is a very very useful tool, and it should never be underestimated. The key point here is to place the sensory chambers in places away from the marines base (away from any observatory they may construct) in order to stop them from advancing.
What we are looking for are solutions to force the marines into a longer resource game. The problem with slash and burn is it is a very quick way for the marines to gather large amounts of resources while depriving the Aliens of their much needed resources. If you can force the marines into a longer game, a game in which you now have fades to do the dirty work, slash and burn will fail. Gorge sieges and choke points will stop the marines from doing this. We already know that trying to direclty protect RT's is fruitless and we know we can't directly attack electrified RTs so we have to come up with new solutions to this problem. Try choke points, it is really effective in most cases. Don't forget about the power of the Gorge or the Lerk and if you are a well organized team (such as clan servers) Sensory chambers can be devastating to the marines if built first.
<!--QuoteBegin--STEAMEDHAM+Oct 7 2003, 05:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (STEAMEDHAM @ Oct 7 2003, 05:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ive said it before and Ill say it again, gorge gangs are the way to dominate marines in large games. Especially so in the rambo res node strategy you speak of. Simply put, the gorges cannot be stopped. The sheer quantities of heal spraying going on will overcome any marine group that is less than 5 (not to mention if you have a good skulk or two). If the marines want to expand all across the map at once, thats great. That means you'll be constantly rolling over groups of 2-3 marines. The marines are forced to group up in order to stop the rampaging gorge gangriums, this translates into no map control for the marines . The gorges cannot be stopped!!!!11111!!!!!!!!!!! <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So true. MC's + gorge gangs > slash+burn.
A good strategy I've seen employed by aliens to counter the marine expansion/electrification tactic is to not expand too quickly. A lot of people still think "everyone rush to a node and build it ASAP" is a good idea. It's not. If you have 8 players, and 6 of them cap res nodes immediately, you are <b>going</b> to lose some of those RTs to marines... there's just no way you can defend that much of the map so early. If someone goes gorge and drops an RT somewhere far off in the map, that is 25 res blown. If a marine squad comes across that node and takes it down in 15 seconds, they have dealt a pretty serious blow to the alien res factor.
A better idea is to have only 3 players go gorge and drop RTs... preferably those RTs that are closest to your starting hive and thus are the easiest to defend. The rest of your team should stay skulk, in packs, and attack constantly. Don't rush into areas that you know you're going to get mowed down. Pick your battles and wait for the marines to come through tight areas where they will have a harder time succeeding. This is a nice way to stop incessant marine expansion. If marines are clustered in tight groups, you have to wait for them to come across you rather than vice-versa. Hopefully your team picks up on this early in the game and stops the marine expansion before the marines have accumulated too much area.
After the first few gorges build the RTs, they should go back skulk as defenders/attackers and another 3 players should go gorge to build the upgrade chambers and static defenses in key locations. Find bottleneck areas that you want to use to stifle marine advances. Put down 3 or 4 OCs and some DCs to back them up. I always look to the minimap first to decide what would be the ideal locations based on our starting hive, likely marine paths, and resource nodes. This will take a few minutes to do, and will cost some pretty heavy res. But the investment is worth it if you pick a good location. Hopefully this key location is also close to a res node, so you can defend it as well. Many times this key location is the second hive you want to build. Spending res to build OC farms in areas that are not exactly vital would be a waste of res early in the game, so it is key that you pick the right locations (and players that understand the map's flow.)
One person should be the person saving for the 2nd hive and another should be the early Fade/Onos. These players remain skulk throughout the early minutes of the game, acting as the scouts and attackers. Give them DC outposts in centralized areas so they can roam larger portions of the map for longer periods of time. Aliens do not need to own every node on the map to win. At least 4 RTs for the first few minutes, and then get the second hive. Once you've got two hives, two full upgrades, and a Fade/Onos or two, you can start to wipe out everything the marines have built, and take it over for yourselves. Hopefully your team hasn't been completely lax in their efforts to prevent total marine domination. Stick together, work as a team to wipe away marine outposts, and you'll do fine.
Aliens do need to have some kind of general consensus and organization to win against skilled marines. If the alien team can't manage to do that, then the marines will be victorious in the end. If most of the alien team is whoring res to go Onos or Fade and refuses to build upgrade structures or defenses in key locations, then they're probably going to lose against skilled marines. That's just how it works now. In 1.04 aliens were reliant on a competent, single gorge. Like the commander, that player was very much responsible for the team's success. Unfortunately, some alien players still think everyone else is going to do the job for them, without realizing that they are required to do their part now. Even if that means spending 100 res to build another hive and some defenses instead of going Onos.
Convince your teammates of the greater Kharaa good and you can overcome marine expansion strategies.
Comments
it means a skulk cant kill it but 2 or fade or anything higher can..
its 2 deadly..
and it could reduce the slash and burn method..
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err, iceman, that would make electrification absolutly useless.
Again, the main problem is not the marines expanding and electrifying. It's losing your own nodes. The "hold few but defend them well" method does seem to work quite well I can testify to that. If both sides can hold around half the res on the map it makes for interesting battles. Still, an alien node is just so fragile compared to a marine node. I wil give it some more time though'; it would seem that this tactic can be countered, it just takes some new thinking.
I don't see how building prices should be altered - in small games the arms lab may be "expensive" but in small games the upgrades offered can annihilate anything up to and including Onos. In bigger games, where you can be facing half an alien team of fades or better, arms labs are "cheaper" and rightly so, because you need those upgrades.
On the alien side, small games = insanely high res and very little rfk - because building and evolving has to be done faster. In big games, res comes in slower but is compensated by the RFK of marines. In big games, proportionally more people can go gorge, which means individual gorges need to spend LESS (barring the hive hoarder).
So it all balances.
As for MS rush strats, a whole bunch of skulks can take out the elec protected IPs, and if you've 2-3 skulks plus gorge MS goes down rather quickly, and if you've any wit you'll charge about trying to find their relocate.
IMHO a clever adaptation of the above is to locate the possible marine relocate and THEN nail the rine spawn, so that you're not running around trying to find the relocation for 2 minutes.
Here's pretty much the deciding factor it seems for most games: If marines get one res tower over aliens after three minutes, the marines are going to win. If aliens get second hive and 3DCs/3MCs in under three minutes, aliens win. The rest of the game will just be a rough struggle, depending on how well the marines/aliens have defended their structures.
That said, I believe there are a few good options to take in general to stop the slash and burn strategy. Some are more useful than others in given situations.
1. Alien Choke Points. Most skulks have two things in mind, kill marine base, stop marines from killing alien stuff. So, they attack marine base until something they own is under attack, and then they rush to defend it. This has worked in many previous versions, but now, since the RT's have such little HP and marines have finally become organized in their movements, this is no longer an option. (This has all be discussed before) However, a very viable option is to not attack the marine base, and at the same time not rush to the defense of something that is under attack. This can be done through choke points. Pick a spot, there are places in every map, where a gorge and a couple skulks can easily choke off major points of interest on the map. The idea is not only to stall marines, but it keeps them bottled up. This keeps lone rambo marines from rushing around destroying/building rt's, and it keeps the marines isolated down to the rt's that are on their side of the chokepoint. This way, alien players are not only defending what they own, they are keeping marine expansion to a minimum. It has been said that OT's really aren't that useful in stopping a group of marines, BUT a few OT's plus a DT plus a skulk or two will most definitely stop vanilla marines. Keep a gorge there to heal the skulks/towers and provide a little ranged support and you basically h ave an impervious wall that the only way the marines can defeat is with siege. Yet to siege it, they have to spend the Res to build up the siege base, and in the meantime, they aren't slashing and burning nor are they collecting a lot of res. Choke points are best set up in areas that MUST be accessed (w/o jetpacks) for the marines to pass. They are even better set up next to RT's that are very close to the marine base.
2. Gorge = power. In general, I have noticed that people have really lost faith in the gorge. This is a big mistake as the Gorge is now more powerful than ever. The gorge has more offensive capability, more defensive capability, and more maneuverability than it ever did before. More importantly, it seems that since the addition of bile bomb to the Gorge's aresenal, many folks have forgotten why the Gorge used to be powerful before he was given bile bomb. The old "Gorge Siege" is a very useful tactic versus slash and burn. A gorge siege is not done with bile bomb rather it is done by the Gorge building OT's and DT's to combat marine buildings such as turrets and electrified rt's. This strategy is even more effective now that OT's are much more accurate than they were in the old days. The main complaint that people have now about slash and burn is that even attacking the marine base while no marines are there is not a viable solution since the marines simply stack their main base buildings around one electrified TF thus making each buidling invulnerable to skulk attack. However, this does not make it invulnerable to a gorge siege. 2 gorges dropping 2 OT's, 2 skulks, and a DT when they get the res, and bam, you have annihliated the marine main base while they were off slash and burning. Even as they spawn in the OT's will massacre them as well as the skulks jumping in and out of combat while being healed by Gorges. If they attempt to come back from slash and burn to attack the base by most standards it will be far to late. This strategy is even further amplified by the fact that in order for slash and burn to work properly, Marines rarely set up much base defense. (They need starting res pool to build more RT's.) Thus they don't put up turrets (or more than 2 or 3 which is no problem to the gorge siege), they don't have many marines guarding their base, and they don't have the res to simply relocate with any efficiency. None of this even mentions a Gorge dropping one OT to take out a marine RT that is electrified. Sure, it won't take it out immediately, but while it is working, the Gorge can go off and do other things. The only limitation to the Gorge Siege is of course resources, but I contend that in the early game (given a decent team size) that you have plenty of res to gorge siege a relatively undefended marine base taking minimal loss and having maximum gain.
3. Lerk = power. More now than ever, Alien should travel in squads and those squads should consist of combined arms. having trouble getting the marines out of an area in the early game? That's why the lerk is there with the gas cloud. So long as they aren't in heavy armor, the lerk can keep marines out of a fortified position and either attacking the lerk or running around in confusion. Add a small gorge siege and a skulk or two and you can pretty much remove a marine prescence from any area. (Including their main base) This idea along with idea number 2 rely on that you don't really care much if the marines are slash and burning. What good is slash and burn if it nets them more of a loss than a gain? This is not to mention that lerks can also attack electrified buildings with immpunity.
4. Sensory chambers. People still have a tendancy to forego the sensory chamber. The sensory chamber is a very very powerful tool now that you can move and be stealthed while you are near one. People forego the sensory because it provides no real benefit unless you happen to be standing next to one. Yet, if you combine sensory chambers with choke points you have a very deadly tool. The immediate reaction to the new sensory chamber is to place a cloaking field over the marine main base so that you can attack into their main base with immpunity. This is a mistake, and it is the reason that sensory chambers have been so loathed. Rather, build sensory chambers at choke points (preferably if your choke points are at RTs that are the closest RTs to the marine main base. This will allow cloaked skulks to rain pain on marines who are attempting to slash and burn. The ability to just walk up to a marine and start biting him w/o him being able to shoot at you until you start killing him is a very very useful tool, and it should never be underestimated. The key point here is to place the sensory chambers in places away from the marines base (away from any observatory they may construct) in order to stop them from advancing.
What we are looking for are solutions to force the marines into a longer resource game. The problem with slash and burn is it is a very quick way for the marines to gather large amounts of resources while depriving the Aliens of their much needed resources. If you can force the marines into a longer game, a game in which you now have fades to do the dirty work, slash and burn will fail. Gorge sieges and choke points will stop the marines from doing this. We already know that trying to direclty protect RT's is fruitless and we know we can't directly attack electrified RTs so we have to come up with new solutions to this problem. Try choke points, it is really effective in most cases. Don't forget about the power of the Gorge or the Lerk and if you are a well organized team (such as clan servers) Sensory chambers can be devastating to the marines if built first.
So true. MC's + gorge gangs > slash+burn.
A better idea is to have only 3 players go gorge and drop RTs... preferably those RTs that are closest to your starting hive and thus are the easiest to defend. The rest of your team should stay skulk, in packs, and attack constantly. Don't rush into areas that you know you're going to get mowed down. Pick your battles and wait for the marines to come through tight areas where they will have a harder time succeeding. This is a nice way to stop incessant marine expansion. If marines are clustered in tight groups, you have to wait for them to come across you rather than vice-versa. Hopefully your team picks up on this early in the game and stops the marine expansion before the marines have accumulated too much area.
After the first few gorges build the RTs, they should go back skulk as defenders/attackers and another 3 players should go gorge to build the upgrade chambers and static defenses in key locations. Find bottleneck areas that you want to use to stifle marine advances. Put down 3 or 4 OCs and some DCs to back them up. I always look to the minimap first to decide what would be the ideal locations based on our starting hive, likely marine paths, and resource nodes. This will take a few minutes to do, and will cost some pretty heavy res. But the investment is worth it if you pick a good location. Hopefully this key location is also close to a res node, so you can defend it as well. Many times this key location is the second hive you want to build. Spending res to build OC farms in areas that are not exactly vital would be a waste of res early in the game, so it is key that you pick the right locations (and players that understand the map's flow.)
One person should be the person saving for the 2nd hive and another should be the early Fade/Onos. These players remain skulk throughout the early minutes of the game, acting as the scouts and attackers. Give them DC outposts in centralized areas so they can roam larger portions of the map for longer periods of time. Aliens do not need to own every node on the map to win. At least 4 RTs for the first few minutes, and then get the second hive. Once you've got two hives, two full upgrades, and a Fade/Onos or two, you can start to wipe out everything the marines have built, and take it over for yourselves. Hopefully your team hasn't been completely lax in their efforts to prevent total marine domination. Stick together, work as a team to wipe away marine outposts, and you'll do fine.
Aliens do need to have some kind of general consensus and organization to win against skilled marines. If the alien team can't manage to do that, then the marines will be victorious in the end. If most of the alien team is whoring res to go Onos or Fade and refuses to build upgrade structures or defenses in key locations, then they're probably going to lose against skilled marines. That's just how it works now. In 1.04 aliens were reliant on a competent, single gorge. Like the commander, that player was very much responsible for the team's success. Unfortunately, some alien players still think everyone else is going to do the job for them, without realizing that they are required to do their part now. Even if that means spending 100 res to build another hive and some defenses instead of going Onos.
Convince your teammates of the greater Kharaa good and you can overcome marine expansion strategies.