Fades Overpowered?
Ollj
our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
our themepark-stalking nightmare Fade Join Date: 2002-12-12 Member: 10696Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Or marines aiming bad.</div> <b>Woot Fades overpowered, in 2.0 ?
Well jeah, when you never saw 3 fades attacking marine spawn at once early game (!) you BETTER NOT PEPLY.</b>
Half team as early fades attacking marine spawn (3 fades on a 6vs6 , 5 fades on bigger servers) before 2nd hive goes up.
goes this way:
First Fade a attacks taking most hits, fade b attacks killing stuff, fade c heals and keeps backs clear.
Then Fade b attacks taking most hits, fade c attacks killing stuff, fade a heals and keeps backs clear.
Then Fade c attacks taking most hits, fade a attacks killing stuff, fade b heals and keeps backs clear.
-
(fast blink in quickly and slowly move out)
That way marines get slaughtered and kept busy unless they dont have 6 turrets OR level 2 armor OR or 3 hmg OR 4 shotguns and 3 minepacks.
All that is not ready in early or mid game most times when fades are ready, and if, its still dificult or just cost too much.
Marines will still be really busy in marine base or all around it and the other aliens can kill and resnodes without big problems.
2 simple facts to proove fades are not as useless as on publics:
Fade rushes are a common strat on ns_siege007
Fades got nerfed since 2.0 more than anything else.
So you think fade rushes are overpowered or does it just need better aiming and better prepared marines?
Its just a cruel alien offensive in early-mid-game, aliens dont take a high risk for.
anyways this does not work if less than 1/3 or more than 2/3 of all aliens (not enough gorges then) go fade or if the wait till the second hive is half done.
7am typo power.
Well jeah, when you never saw 3 fades attacking marine spawn at once early game (!) you BETTER NOT PEPLY.</b>
Half team as early fades attacking marine spawn (3 fades on a 6vs6 , 5 fades on bigger servers) before 2nd hive goes up.
goes this way:
First Fade a attacks taking most hits, fade b attacks killing stuff, fade c heals and keeps backs clear.
Then Fade b attacks taking most hits, fade c attacks killing stuff, fade a heals and keeps backs clear.
Then Fade c attacks taking most hits, fade a attacks killing stuff, fade b heals and keeps backs clear.
-
(fast blink in quickly and slowly move out)
That way marines get slaughtered and kept busy unless they dont have 6 turrets OR level 2 armor OR or 3 hmg OR 4 shotguns and 3 minepacks.
All that is not ready in early or mid game most times when fades are ready, and if, its still dificult or just cost too much.
Marines will still be really busy in marine base or all around it and the other aliens can kill and resnodes without big problems.
2 simple facts to proove fades are not as useless as on publics:
Fade rushes are a common strat on ns_siege007
Fades got nerfed since 2.0 more than anything else.
So you think fade rushes are overpowered or does it just need better aiming and better prepared marines?
Its just a cruel alien offensive in early-mid-game, aliens dont take a high risk for.
anyways this does not work if less than 1/3 or more than 2/3 of all aliens (not enough gorges then) go fade or if the wait till the second hive is half done.
7am typo power.
Comments
i think it's all about the approach... if they have regen, they most likely won't withstand a few shotgun blasts; if they have regen, they blink in, swipe a few and blink out, so i think you could try and ambush them as they run away... or better yet, concentrate fire on the one fleeing, as he will most likely be very low on health.
but yes, skilled early fades (even one, really) can easily win the game
In scrims, the idea is to get JP's by the time they have fades.
I don't know how this could be fixed without causing other problems, but there are a couple possibilities. One would be to beef up elec damage significantly, so that regen fades would be forced to back off a couple times and heal before killing the node. A radical idea would be to make blink a two-hive ability, while beefing up the fade's other traits so that he isn't worthless at the one-hive stage. I don't know, just tossing out ideas.
Like I said, beef up his other traits so that he isn't worthless at the one-hive stage. Metabolize could be modified so that it serves a specific purpose. Right now, it isn't even used in clan matches since it just acts like regen (which all fades have anyway).
why don't you just save up 50 res and pass out 5 shotties as soon as you see the fade and go hunt him? he won't last long and the trade is worth it
why don't you just save up 50 res and pass out 5 shotties as soon as you see the fade and go hunt him? he won't last long and the trade is worth it<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A smart fade will run the second he sees multiple shotties, and use the opportunity to attack an unattended node on the other end of the map.
And remember, 6on6. You want to send the entire marine team into alien territory to kill something that moves 4x faster than the marines? That's begging to get ambushed.
(For those that were not in the "Pandas training program", basically, on one of the first students vs. students scrims, the game progressed slowly and haphazardly for the marines, only to be ended by a group of 3 fades who cleaned out our base and IPs.)
Multiple things led to our, uhh, total annihilation. First, we got shotguns AS the fades were killing our IP, not much help there, eh? Then our aim was just a bit off. I killed about 2 of our guys and zero fades... yeah... whoops. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> We had no preparation, no upgrades, no warning, no coordination... pretty much set up to die at the hands of the next rush. That rush just happened to be a 3 fade rush.
The commander, marines, and even the fade players determine how successful the fade rush will be. Unfortunately, we were busy shooting each other and the commander was busy dropping... what was it?... A turret factory? The fades were pretty skilled as well.
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Absolutly impossible. Fades show up by around the 4-5 minute mark; there is no way in hell that you'll have jetpacks by then.
I've seen good Fades in action. The problem is hitting them full stop. Shotguns are all well and good, but a skilled Fade doesn't get hit. There are some players who, if they are on the other side, I will refuse to com, because it's just so painful seeing all my hard work get taken apart by a single player.
Fades seem to cut a fine line between balance and imbalance. They do require a lot of skill to use and are devestating in the right hands. I just don't know if they are inbalanced or not.
I prefer the second option for several reasons.
a.) If the hitbox was made to match the actual size of the current fade model... well that is one big target and mighty hard to miss.... fades would probably get mowed down simply because it would be so hard to miss such a huge target.
b.) If the model was resized (not that I know anything about models but this seems to be easyer than altering the hitbox to me) to the actuall size of the hitbox then the fade would NOT be such a huge target and hard to miss causeing him to get mowed down, but on the other side of things when you aimed at a part of his body you know that you are going to hit him rather than have your shots go threw the magicaly invulnerable parts of his body
I've been trying that sort of strategy as COMM on pubs. Aggressive RT Denial in the hopes of getting my marines enough upgrades and gear for the first appearance of advanced evolutions.
The problem is it doesn't matter whether we are successful in taking out 50-75% of their RTs and kill a 2nd Hive before it goes up in the opening game. It just takes 1 or 2 aliens to acquire enough RfKs to go fade and then down goes our electrified RTs.
Fades can be dealt with head on with squads (3-5 marines) but the problem is good fades don't get themselves into situations where they are taking on 4-5 marines (2-3 of which or SGers). They concentrate on RTs and take out scout squads or RT killing squads composed of around 2-3 marines. What is especially effective is when 1-2 advanced evos harass and pin the bulk of the marine force allowing skulks/gorges or another advance evos to takes down RTs.
The balance of RTs as well as the balance of power shifts dramatically when a few skilled aliens access advanced evolutions.
This is the same reason why we cannot shoot the onos in his head or butt, and it's an unavoidable limitation of the HL engine.
a quick rush to second level weapons, and ensuring that all my resources (~5) are within two phase gates' walking distance (less than 10 seconds) seems pretty effective. what do i give up? turrets.
if a fade pops up somewhere, throw half the soldiers at one end of the phase and start the other end on a flanking move - and even if the fade doesn't die, containing the fade is a good second option to killing it. if it's not killing your res nozzles, be happy its not building alien ones.
also, if a fade, for example, flies up into generator room on ns_nothing, click that elevator to bring it up, or tell one of your marines to. it takes a lot of explicit and extensive micromanaging, but its possible.
also important is to keep your marines alive in the early game - less kills the skulks get on you, the less RFK (res from kill) they have to feed off of. some extra medpacks may end up going a long way.
-aya
I still think they need a little jab with the nerf stick though. 55 res maybe? I dunno.
-aya <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I suspect this is one of the biggest factors for countering early advanced evos on pubs.
Keeping your marines alive with well placed med packs is vital to ensure aliens get as little RfKs as possible. However excessive med pacj usage leads to overspending which delays upgrades. A fade can appear within 4-5 minutes, if you are constantly having to wait for res to build RTs or get upgrades those delays could be fatal. 3-4 med packs for each fight doesn't seem much but when you get into 3-4 fights between MS and the WP that trip costs you 18-32 res. That enough for res for an RT or upgrade.
So I agree, keeping your marines alive can pay off in the long run, but laying out a carpet of med packs* everytime your marines gets into a fight can hurt you bad. Keep in mind your med pack expendature when you COMM and it will help you rush that tech quickly to combat those early advanced evos.
*<i>Med Carpets can be justified in some situations but that is another topic.</i>
That's your problem right there. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here's the deal.. if you see them go D first, you do NOT electrify resource nodes. Just cap an dmove on to attack THEIR nodes. Without M they are too slow to defend all their nodes and can't ambush you (no silence). When the second hive is started, rush it. Without M they can't teleport to defend (You can sometimes take down the hive two times before they realise they need to defend it properly). Just cap res and kill their res. Your res will go down to skulks, sure, but it is a lot easier for you to replace them then it is for them. Tech tech tech!
This will ensure the fades show up later. With 1-3 nodes and upgraded Marines it takes time to go fade from RFK. As soon as the first Fade shows up you *dump* shotguns. Not 1 or 2, more like 4-6 shotguns. This is like buying 4-6 lottery tickets where the win is a dead fade. It will also result in a lot of dead skulks and a bunch of aliens screaming "OMG SHOTGUN RUSH!!11", hopefully making them run back to their hive (yay! You can kill more res nodes and they stay away from yours for a minute:)). Also spread some mines around base, with a bit of luck, a fade retreating will run over one.
Electrifying nodes when Aliens have D is stupid, you're playing on their strengths instead of tehir weknesses. The weak parts of D that you *should* play on is:
- Cannot teleport to hive. So just have LA Marines unload into the second hive at any opportunity you get.
- Slow aliens. Attack all over the place, they can't get there quick enough. Synchronised attacks are very effective.
- No ambushes. Not only don't they have silence or cloaking, healing makes noise. Allowing you to expand more recklessly.
Here's the deal.. if you see them go D first, you do NOT electrify resource nodes. Just cap an dmove on to attack THEIR nodes. Without M they are too slow to defend all their nodes and can't ambush you (no silence). When the second hive is started, rush it. Without M they can't teleport to defend (You can sometimes take down the hive two times before they realise they need to defend it properly). Just cap res and kill their res. Your res will go down to skulks, sure, but it is a lot easier for you to replace them then it is for them. Tech tech tech!
This will ensure the fades show up later. With 1-3 nodes and upgraded Marines it takes time to go fade from RFK. As soon as the first Fade shows up you *dump* shotguns. Not 1 or 2, more like 4-6 shotguns. This is like buying 4-6 lottery tickets where the win is a dead fade. It will also result in a lot of dead skulks and a bunch of aliens screaming "OMG SHOTGUN RUSH!!11", hopefully making them run back to their hive (yay! You can kill more res nodes and they stay away from yours for a minute:)). Also spread some mines around base, with a bit of luck, a fade retreating will run over one.
Electrifying nodes when Aliens have D is stupid, you're playing on their strengths instead of tehir weknesses. The weak parts of D that you *should* play on is:
- Cannot teleport to hive. So just have LA Marines unload into the second hive at any opportunity you get.
- Slow aliens. Attack all over the place, they can't get there quick enough. Synchronised attacks are very effective.
- No ambushes. Not only don't they have silence or cloaking, healing makes noise. Allowing you to expand more recklessly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Truth be known I usually cannot electrify every RT I have when I tech rush. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
If the initial resource grab goes fairly well I should end up with around 40-60% of the the RTs. I don't like to be down any more then 1 RT to the aliens. When I have 5 or more RTs I find the time inbetween vital upgrades gives me enough res for 2 electrifies, 3 if the team requires very little few med/ammo packs. I will usually electrify the RTs closest to MS.
Yes, 30-90 res is a large investment but this is my perspective. I may save myself 30 res initially but the cost in time to divert marines (even 1-2) to rebuild RTs is hurtful, especially when it takes more then one trip to rebuild it. When RTs get chomped that mean decreased resource flowage, every moment it takes for marines to get there and rebuild the RT you are not getting those resources. I may have saved 30 res or the price of 2 RT replacements but it is the time between the rebuilding of the 2 RTs that concerns me. Will dropping meds and upgrading with a reduced flow mean I have to wait to rebuild things and uprgade other things? That means more delay.
I find the advantage of electrified RTs is it takes much more time for skulks to take down and almost never without some backup (another skulk or a gorge). And if an elec'd RT needs assistance marine have more time to get to it before it goes down. Basically I find electrifing RTs gives me uninterupted res flowage as opposed to a feast-or-famine type situation of having "down-times" to rebuild. By electrifying 2-3 RTs you have sort of an insurance that those RTs will supply enough res to rush tech without delays. Even if ever all the other unelec'd RTs goes down you still have that core group to supply you with the minimum amount of resources required to rush tech, although you may need to restrict med/ammo pack usage.
In a good game against a skilled, teamplaying alien team unelec'd RTs goes down hard and fast in the middle game. You can grab a bunch in the opening game because they are busy claiming their own. After that is done you can build an RT but it is being munched on before your marines can make it to the next node. The chore of having to rebuild RTs and run back and kill skulks munching on RTs seems like a recipe for disaster to me. I can't see you having any more then 1-2 "core" RTs to work with in the middle game occationally and very temporarily peaking at 4 RTs.
Don't get me wrong, aliens will chomp elec'd RTs but it give more time and it takes less marines to deal with it. Any skulks attacking the RT will already be damaged when you get there. Send a decent shooter and he can bag 2 skulks with relative ease. This allows me to concentrate and aggress my marine force forward, not running backward to fend off attacks and rebuild. Some marines will have to fulfill that role but the majority will be assault marines squads.
Basically in the race to get enough tech to adaquetely counter fades any delays can be fatal. I see more possiblities for delay with unelec'd RTs then elec'd RTs, even if all the RTs can't be elec'd.
I'm not quite sure I understanding your reasoning for why electrifying nodes is stupid when aliens have DC. Even a regen skulk takes a while to chomp a elec'd RT. And I'm not sure I agree with a good teamplaying alien team being slow and all spread out with DCs. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I totally agree with SGs immediately when advanced evos make their first appearance.
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Absolutly impossible. Fades show up by around the 4-5 minute mark; there is no way in hell that you'll have jetpacks by then.
I've seen good Fades in action. The problem is hitting them full stop. Shotguns are all well and good, but a skilled Fade doesn't get hit. There are some players who, if they are on the other side, I will refuse to com, because it's just so painful seeing all my hard work get taken apart by a single player.
Fades seem to cut a fine line between balance and imbalance. They do require a lot of skill to use and are devestating in the right hands. I just don't know if they are inbalanced or not. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not. In fact, it's done all the time.
All you have to do is keep the alien nodes down to a minimum (3 at most), and keep yours around 4 while pressuring them. By the 2 min mark, upgrade the armory, by 5 min, you should research JP's, and by 6, you will have JP/Shotties on the field. JP/Shotties are perhaps the best way to combat fades. Or alternativly, you can hunt down their remaining nodes, or rush their hive.
By the time you get the JP you should have lv. 2 weapons and lv. 1 armor.
Still cant get it 100% but it gets alot of calls of "hax", also still havent managed to stop the hive getting killed doing this, only 1.0 lerks can (could) do that.
Fade is so much fun, I for one am glad they kept a skill class in the game, as the others (at their respective time frame of usefullness - i.e skulk at game start) are reletavely easy.
I find it HUGELY ironic that in the beginning of 2.0 people said fade needed made better, and now they need to take away some elements of it, and make it worse <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> that sadens me.
skilled Fade can easilly kill the entire team, even bunched togehter, shotgun or not, but then so can lerk...
But HA certainly counters fades nicely, its just getting that far that may be a problem <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Remember the fades role in the kharaa's heirarchy before saying make it worse - it is meant to be the warrior, the all round killing machine. Get started on Skulks, should a scout be able to down a marine in two hits? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
'Nuf said.
The discussion is about (early) Fades, which assumes DC first. The big strength of early Fades is that they take down electrified RT's, no need for teamwork or patience. Against the Fade, an electrified node is only marginally better off then an unelectrified one, thus the 3x price is not worth it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If the initial resource grab goes fairly well I should end up with around 40-60% of the the RTs. I don't like to be down any more then 1 RT to the aliens. When I have 5 or more RTs I find the time inbetween vital upgrades gives me enough res for 2 electrifies, 3 if the team requires very little few med/ammo packs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This also assumes you have a TF.. I tend to make do without one. Anyway, I think there's a difference in mindset here. You want to take and hold res. I want to kill the opponents res. Thing is, by constantly attacking my opponents res I achieve the same thing, they are too busy to attack my undefended nodes most of the time. Even if they do kill one, there weren't any resources spent on defending it, it is easily replaced, and that was at least one less alien defending their own res nodes.
You say you don't want to be more then one res after the aliens? I don't want to have less then twice as many res nodes as them. If you check with people who play with me as COM I think they will say that a normal res count is more like 5-2, 6-3 or 8-1 then what you describe. The thing is, you put the aliens in a lose/lose situation. Either they defend their resources, possibly saving them (and mine are left alone) or they attack mine and definetely lose them. It also costs them a *lot* more to put the nodes back up. A lot.
Once all easy-to-get to nodes are down, I start going for the ones in their hives, or the hives themself. Any skulk out chewing one of my nodes will most likely turn back at the sign of his hive blinking red, buying even more time for my res nodes to be up and pumping.
I'm not trying to hold anything. Just attack everything. If I see Marines guarding a res node I tell them to run off and kill aliens. Why guard a res node? If you're hunting the alien he won't have time to attack it, he will be busy trying to stay alive. If a res node is under attack, chances are that there is a Marine nearby since they are *all* out running all over the map. Tell him to go save it. If it goes down, he will rebuild it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I'm not sure I agree with a good teamplaying alien team being slow and all spread out with DCs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Slower then with M chambers, which is the point.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can grab a bunch in the opening game because they are busy claiming their own<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd replace that with "You can grab a bunch in the early/mid game because they are busy *defending* their own"
You should give this a try before knocking it, I think you will be surprised.
That's your problem right there. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Here's the deal.. if you see them go D first, you do NOT electrify resource nodes. Just cap an dmove on to attack THEIR nodes. Without M they are too slow to defend all their nodes and can't ambush you (no silence). When the second hive is started, rush it. Without M they can't teleport to defend (You can sometimes take down the hive two times before they realise they need to defend it properly). Just cap res and kill their res. Your res will go down to skulks, sure, but it is a lot easier for you to replace them then it is for them. Tech tech tech!
This will ensure the fades show up later. With 1-3 nodes and upgraded Marines it takes time to go fade from RFK. As soon as the first Fade shows up you *dump* shotguns. Not 1 or 2, more like 4-6 shotguns. This is like buying 4-6 lottery tickets where the win is a dead fade. It will also result in a lot of dead skulks and a bunch of aliens screaming "OMG SHOTGUN RUSH!!11", hopefully making them run back to their hive (yay! You can kill more res nodes and they stay away from yours for a minute:)). Also spread some mines around base, with a bit of luck, a fade retreating will run over one.
Electrifying nodes when Aliens have D is stupid, you're playing on their strengths instead of tehir weknesses. The weak parts of D that you *should* play on is:
- Cannot teleport to hive. So just have LA Marines unload into the second hive at any opportunity you get.
- Slow aliens. Attack all over the place, they can't get there quick enough. Synchronised attacks are very effective.
- No ambushes. Not only don't they have silence or cloaking, healing makes noise. Allowing you to expand more recklessly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good god... WHAT server do you play on!???!?? it would be nice to have a awsome comm.
<b>[CoFR]FR31NS-Alien Infest 2.01 1RSRV CD-REQ 4.4.0
207.44.180.88:27015</b>
And yes, he is an awesome comm.