<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 26 2003, 05:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 26 2003, 05:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ahhhh but beneficial and "does not harm others" have problems with them. We lock up criminals, and that is not Good for the criminal, its Good for society. We bring something unbeneficial on a person because society has deemed it for the Greater good. So is condemning a violent criminal to jail Good? It's preemptive action ie stopping him from commiting further crimes, but it contradicts your definition of Good. Its causing Bad upon one person in the name of Good. To carry your definition of good to its natural conclusion, you cannot punish anyone, because punishment is inflicting harm/bad stuff upon someone. And that means you are not doing a Good thing.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, you are quite correct in that in theory, nobody should ever be locked up because taking away someone's freedom is an evil act. In cases such as these you are simultaneously being evil (taking away freedom) and being good (protecting others). I don't think this contradicts my definition of good per se though, as long as it is understood that some acts are not exclusively good or bad. I see this almost as a component vector issue in math. Many actions have a good and bad component associated with them. It's just that we tend to label acts based on which end of the stick jabs us - the soft side or the pointy side.
My argument is essentialy that if God is all-powerful with all the salad dressings added etc. he could have essentially instilled within us the desire to do no concious harm to others. This does not mean that we would automatically not appreciate or understand love, because we would still know what it is like to experience no love, and not getting the help we would like sometimes.
In theory this means that you do not need to experience what most would term 'evil' to understand what most would term 'good'. In other words its more of an absence of good rather than an opposite of good that would then fuel this appreciation.
Yeah, Dr. D has a point. God knowingly let evil exist.
Supposing God allowed man to have free will, and that mankind *creates* evil, that doesn't explain floods, droughts, earthquakes, tornados etc. There is plenty of "evil" in this world that isn't related to man's doing. It has to be God.
Plus, keep in mind that if mankind has free will, then God doesn't know what we will do next, thus rendering him from being all-knowing.
The problem of evil cannot be excused in a couple short sentences. It is old for a reason.. the problem has not been solved. Anybody who says God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-righteous cannot also admit evil exists in the world, for that would be a contradiction.
Okay there is another thread in this forum now for the discussing of the Argument from Evil - so this thread will be landing at <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=28&t=48020&st=120' target='_blank'>Arguement From Evil</a> International airport, and all hijackers will be escorted off the current thread and into that one.
Admittedly the author of the thread is a bit of a flaming n00b, but dont let that discourage you.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cpl.Davis+Sep 22 2003, 01:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.Davis @ Sep 22 2003, 01:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I did a report/presentation on this last year in college. I used the King James version which is the most historically accurate version in terms of translations over time. I had 14 pages of direct qoutes in size 10 font. Everything from tiny "who cares" topics to larger ideas such as murder, sexism, slavery etc
here are some examples.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are we saved through works? Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ." vs James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are we punished for our parents' sins? Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9) vs Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is God peaceable? Romans 15:33 "The God of peace." vs Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has anyone seen God? John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time." vs Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face." Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First off, I have to dispute the claim that the KJV is the most historically accurate version of the Bible in terms of Translation. It was created back in the 1600-1700's I believe, and our knowledge and understanding of ancient Greek and Hebrew has definately increased since then. We also have an extra 300-400 years of time to study the Bible, so I like to think we are getting closer to originality as time goes on, rather then further from.
Are we saved by Works?
Galations 2:16 of the NIV reads
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no-one will be justified<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines take on it: We are justified (saved) by faith in Jesus, not by observing the law (or doing the right thing), because at some point we are going to fail that law (do the wrong thing), and then we are screwed. The law depends on us follow it to the letter, or burn if we dont. Faith relies upon us believing in Jesus, nothing more, nothing less for justification or salvation.
I feel to grasp the context of the next section, a larger tract of the surrounding verses is needed. You will notice that James 2:24 is in there.
James 2:14 - 26 reads: <!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
But some will say, "you have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the alter? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him righteousness," and he was called God's friend. (vs 24)You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone(/vs 24)
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitue considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines note: As my Bible puts it in notes under Major Themes:
Thirdly, James emphasises the need to demonstrate one's faith by good works. His readers are deceiving themselves if they hear the word of God and fail to obey it. Anyone who has genuine faith must and will demonstrate that faith by their everyday life. The point is not that works are to be added to faith as an additional cause of justification. Rather, works are the natural consequence of true Christian faith. At first sight, this may appear to contradict Paul's assertion that a person is justified by faith (Ro 3:28). However, this is clearly not the case. Paul teaches that works have no place in securing our initial acceptance with God; James teaches that works are the subsequent evidence of a justifying faith.
I feel that pretty much answers that one. Taken with the surrounding scripture, James and Paul are in perfect agreement.
Are we punished for our parents' sins? Exodus 20:4-6 is part of the list of the Ten commandments. Its the third one, make no idols. It reads:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. (vs5)You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, (/vs5) but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines note: Obviously, if you bow down to idols, you are going to REALLY frick him off. And he vows to get even. And he's even going to take it out not just on you, but on your whole family. Ouch. But you must remember how God punishes - not based on the severity of crime, but on a pass/fail. You sin, your punishment is death. Thus, its rings slightly hollow as a threat. They would sin and die anyway. That doesnt have me entirely convinced either, so I'm gonna have to find more out about that one. Bear in mind that all I am writing here is either straight from my Bible's commentary or my own reasoning, I havent got the "Big Guns" to help me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The book of Deuteronomy contains a massive section of Laws and Customs given to the Jews. Deuteronomy 24:16 falls smack bang in the middle of this section, and thus we can reasonably assume that that this is a law being given to the Jews.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins. <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines note: God's now starting to look like he has one set of rules for the Jews and one set of Rules for himself here. A point that might be relevant is what I made in the AFE thread, Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. God can punish the kids for dads error because God is without sin... Dont bother pointing out the logical flaw out, its pretty obvious to me too. This is definately one that has me wondering. I dont feel that I have answered it at all. I'll keep digging and see what I can come up with.
Is God peaceable? Romans 15:33 is Paul signing off: <!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->The God of peace be with you all. Amen.<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Exodus 15:3 reads: <!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines note: Exodus 15:3 is Jewish poetry. I think I pretty well covered this one in a post in the AFE, so im going to quote myself "Just because God "is a warrior" doesnt exclude him from being a God of Peace. He is dealing with what is pretty much evil personified, lucifer. And God fights with him, and if he didnt, then there would be no Peace. No contradiction, God fights for Peace. Thus he is a warrior and a God of Peace simultaneously."
Alright thats enough for now, I'll get to the rest when time permits me.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aegeri+Sep 23 2003, 04:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aegeri @ Sep 23 2003, 04:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Essentially the Bible is a collection of stories, laws, prayers, and all manner of things written by different people at different times so there are bound to be some problems in the accuracy and consistency of the Bible because it was not written directly by God or by someone transcribing for God, like the Koran is understood to have been.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let me get this straight, you criticise the bible for being written by a large collection of authors, but not the Koran based on a loose interpretation? That is a bit odd, because it can be equally as argued that the bible is just as divinely inspired as the Koran. Sure, I think a lot of the bible was from very human authors who simply wrote down historical events with their relgious twist on things. If they were inspired by God or a pink elephant on venus is entirely up to faith and or further interpretation.
I just find that a little odd an argument. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You seem to have missed the point of my post which was to, for want of a better word, "attack" those who were bringing up every bible reference that contradicted each other.
I was merely saying that most Christians believe that the Bible is "a collection of stories, laws, prayers, and all manner of things written by different people at different times."
I was not trying to question the validity of the Bible or anything, just giving what I feel was what the majority of Chrisitians believe.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, It does not boast, It is not proud. It is not rude, It is not self-seeking, It is not easily angered, It keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
So .... Here is another nice contradiction. If love "keeps no record of wrongs" why are we judged for our sins ? Why are they not automatically forgotten if God loves us unconditionaly.
What about judgement day ? Seems like record keeping is needed for that.
So it seems God does not love us perfectly...or perhaps this implies that he is not perfect.
It doesn't. If you ask God to forgive your sins, he will forget your wrongs. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. It is just some people decide to face God, unlike me most of the times, and admit we are guilty of sin. God is loving, but he gave us free choice as mentioned before in the thread. We all have a choice to do something with our lives, we are all responsible for our actions, and God is asking you to choose sides. He doesn't force it on you, he doesn't simply appear and say, "believe in me now that you have seen me." The kingdom of God is not of this world. The kingdom of God is in everyone. If the kingdom of God came to the world as so many people like the Jewish people hoping for a messiah with power and glory, it would be the end as we see it. Judgement day.
<!--QuoteBegin--kida+Sep 28 2003, 08:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Sep 28 2003, 08:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It doesn't. If you ask God to forgive your sins, he will forget your wrongs. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. It is just some people decide to face God, unlike me most of the times, and admit we are guilty of sin. God is loving, but he gave us free choice as mentioned before in the thread. We all have a choice to do something with our lives, we are all responsible for our actions, and God is asking you to choose sides. He doesn't force it on you, he doesn't simply appear and say, "believe in me now that you have seen me." The kingdom of God is not of this world. The kingdom of God is in everyone. If the kingdom of God came to the world as so many people like the Jewish people hoping for a messiah with power and glory, it would be the end as we see it. Judgement day. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That is not unconditional love then. If God only forgets your wrongs if you do x, y and z, then his love is no longer unconditional. If you say that he loves even sinners, because he is supposed to love us all, then he should not remember the wrongs that they do as per the description of love given in the biblical text - <b>no matter what they do</b>. It seems that he does remember the wrongs of sinners that don't repent, and hence he does not love them in the perfect sense of love. God is supposed to be perfect though. See the problem here ?
This seems to be another case of "do as I say and not as I do" on the part of God.
You forget that love and punishment are very much intertwined. If my parents forgave every single thing I ever did automatically, then they couldnt punish me. And if they didnt punish me, I'd be an absolute wreck of a kid.
God loves everyone, he will take no pleasure out of the suffering of his people in Hell. Forgiveness is available to all, just ask and its yours.
Remember, there are several parts to Gods nature, on is of love, and the other of Justice. And Justice takes precedent. Perhaps demonstrated best by God the Father and God the Son. God the Father is Justice, it says in the Bible that Jesus intercedes between God and mankind, convincing him not to follow Justice to its natural conclusion and wipe us out.
God the Son is love, but he knew love cannot argue with Justice, the Law of God must be upheld. If you sin, you shall die. No escaping that, no matter how much he loves his people. So Jesus took all the sin, paid the price for it, and then brought himself back to life. Thus anyone who asks Jesus for forgiveness can recieve it, he just puts your sin down on his tab.
Love without Justice isnt love at all. God is omniscent, its impossible for him not to know what you have done. He was more than willing to have it lumped on Jesus, and paid for that way.
<!--QuoteBegin--kida+Sep 29 2003, 02:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Sep 29 2003, 02:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It doesn't. If you ask God to forgive your sins, he will forget your wrongs. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. It is just some people decide to face God, unlike me most of the times, and admit we are guilty of sin. God is loving, but he gave us free choice as mentioned before in the thread. We all have a choice to do something with our lives, we are all responsible for our actions, and God is asking you to choose sides. He doesn't force it on you, he doesn't simply appear and say, "believe in me now that you have seen me." The kingdom of God is not of this world. The kingdom of God is in everyone. If the kingdom of God came to the world as so many people like the Jewish people hoping for a messiah with power and glory, it would be the end as we see it. Judgement day. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> God doesnt forget, when it comes to judgement day, everyone will be judged - the living and the dead. What will happen to Christians is that Jesus will step forward and say "this man is sinless. I am sinless so he is sinless" or something like that
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 29 2003, 01:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 29 2003, 01:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You forget that love and punishment are very much intertwined. If my parents forgave every single thing I ever did automatically, then they couldnt punish me. And if they didnt punish me, I'd be an absolute wreck of a kid.
God loves everyone, he will take no pleasure out of the suffering of his people in Hell. Forgiveness is available to all, just ask and its yours. .... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Last I checked, once you were condemed to hell, you could no longer repent and be saved. Thats sort of like a parent killing their child as punishment. Its not out of love, because no good can come of it.
Please note however, that last time I checked == never.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 29 2003, 02:48 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 29 2003, 02:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You forget that love and punishment are very much intertwined. If my parents forgave every single thing I ever did automatically, then they couldnt punish me. And if they didnt punish me, I'd be an absolute wreck of a kid.
God loves everyone, he will take no pleasure out of the suffering of his people in Hell. Forgiveness is available to all, just ask and its yours.
Remember, there are several parts to Gods nature, on is of love, and the other of Justice. And Justice takes precedent. Perhaps demonstrated best by God the Father and God the Son. God the Father is Justice, it says in the Bible that Jesus intercedes between God and mankind, convincing him not to follow Justice to its natural conclusion and wipe us out.
God the Son is love, but he knew love cannot argue with Justice, the Law of God must be upheld. If you sin, you shall die. No escaping that, no matter how much he loves his people. So Jesus took all the sin, paid the price for it, and then brought himself back to life. Thus anyone who asks Jesus for forgiveness can recieve it, he just puts your sin down on his tab.
Love without Justice isnt love at all. God is omniscent, its impossible for him not to know what you have done. He was more than willing to have it lumped on Jesus, and paid for that way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I see your point. However if your parents waited till you were 70 to punish you for something you did at age 20 ... I think you'd consider this somewhat ridiculous ?
My counter-point - as SkulkBait suggests - is that if you punish out of love, you don't delay punishment till it is too late to be of use to someone. Obviously someone can lead a sinful life (which God allows) and then be punished at the end, when it is too late to do something about it. This tells me that it is a punishment that does not come out of a sense of love. It also violates the text I quoted because clearly record keeping is needed to <i>punish someone at a later date</i> - which seems to indicate that God is not capable of perfect love.
I can see where you are coming from with the Justice angle. However I believe that love takes precedence over justice, because love is what breathed life into the world is it not ? Love without justice is love in the purest sense, because it asks for nothing in exchange for itself. This I believe is what Jesus meant when he said "turn the other cheek". This is another contradiction because it seems to indicate that God is not prepared to "turn the other cheek" when he punishes us... see what I mean ?
<!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Sep 29 2003, 07:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Sep 29 2003, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God is not prepared to "turn the other cheek" when he punishes us... see what I mean ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 29 2003, 01:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 29 2003, 01:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Sep 29 2003, 07:28 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Sep 29 2003, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God is not prepared to "turn the other cheek" when he punishes us... see what I mean ? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> no <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The point is it's a "do as I say and not as I do" approach. I.E. hypocritical.
He's the almighty God, creator of life and everything though. You have to give him a little credit for knowing what the heck he's doing. If he does something hypocritical, well give him a little credit. He knows things we don't.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 29 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 29 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He's the almighty God, creator of life and everything though. You have to give him a little credit for knowing what the heck he's doing. If he does something hypocritical, well give him a little credit. He knows things we don't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Biggest.... Copout.... EVA!
Seriously though...
in this thread posting "Well hes god so it just works, yeah" is not acceptable, AFAIK.
<whistle> Foul, defence #1855, Out of Bounds and Delay of Game. 3 Post penalty, repeat first down.
Filthy Larry, I agree at some aspect, whole heartily with you. People don't deserve to burn eternally in hell, people, who don't believe in God, but behave better than most Christians, also don't deserve to be in hell (whatever that may truly be). But Larry, you have to realise that God does not let A do B, where A is me and B is committing murder, and then get away with it like it is nothing. Jesus is the new law, and all you have to do to follow this "law" is to believe in him and ask for forgiveness.
What you are coming about here are the ideals of Unitarian Universalists.
Larry, God is so many times smarter than us as you probably already know, and everyone else I suspect. God is mysterious, his ways are not of this world. We cannot question the actions of God, who's intelligence and wisdom are infinite.
Live well, and leave the rest in the hands of God.
<!--QuoteBegin--kida+Sep 29 2003, 07:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Sep 29 2003, 07:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Filthy Larry, I agree at some aspect, whole heartily with you. People don't deserve to burn eternally in hell, people, who don't believe in God, but behave better than most Christians, also don't deserve to be in hell (whatever that may truly be). But Larry, you have to realise that God does not let A do B, where A is me and B is committing murder, and then get away with it like it is nothing. Jesus is the new law, and all you have to do to follow this "law" is to believe in him and ask for forgiveness.
What you are coming about here are the ideals of Unitarian Universalists.
Larry, God is so many times smarter than us as you probably already know, and everyone else I suspect. God is mysterious, his ways are not of this world. We cannot question the actions of God, who's intelligence and wisdom are infinite.
Live well, and leave the rest in the hands of God. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As I said before, using the excuse that we can't possibly understand Gods motive to end an argument seems to be against the spirit of the forum (correct me if I'm wrong Marine01). So please stop doing it!
<!--QuoteBegin--kida+Sep 29 2003, 08:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Sep 29 2003, 08:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I am entitled to my own opinion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course you are. I'm just saying you can't use it as an argument here. Sorry if you took offence.
<!--QuoteBegin--kida+Sep 29 2003, 07:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kida @ Sep 29 2003, 07:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Filthy Larry, I agree at some aspect, whole heartily with you. People don't deserve to burn eternally in hell, people, who don't believe in God, but behave better than most Christians, also don't deserve to be in hell (whatever that may truly be). But Larry, you have to realise that God does not let A do B, where A is me and B is committing murder, and then get away with it like it is nothing. Jesus is the new law, and all you have to do to follow this "law" is to believe in him and ask for forgiveness.
What you are coming about here are the ideals of Unitarian Universalists.
Larry, God is so many times smarter than us as you probably already know, and everyone else I suspect. God is mysterious, his ways are not of this world. We cannot question the actions of God, who's intelligence and wisdom are infinite.
Live well, and leave the rest in the hands of God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Kida,
I am glad we can agree on some points. The idea of someone being punished for all eternity is something that I cannot reconcile with any god that is supposed to have perfect love for us. I hold God to a higher standard than us because He is supposed to be perfect, and we're supposed to be flawed.
Speaking as someone who used to be a Christian, I think it is not so much the idea of whether God exists that many struggle with, so much as the idea of what He/She is, and the nature of our relationship with this entity.
So to this end, what do we know of God really ? It is only through observing inwardly and outwardly that we can begin to formulate ideas. Religions seem to be an organized collection of such ideas over time. The Bible is a supposed to be a written account of God's actions and desires for us. People essentially had to apply intelligence and reasoning when compiling these texts. Divinely inspired or not.
This is all well and good, but how do we know if these ideas are really accurate, or merely the product of someone's imagination ? There are those amongst us who love to use religion to manipulate people for their own purposes. How can we ever know if we do not apply the same intelligence and reasoning to then analyze the text and see if it presents a consistent description of God and our relationship with Him ?
So now we're taking a look at the text of the Bible very closely to see if there are contradictions in ideas. If contradictions exist, then the text is no longer completely accurate and all ideas are then suspect.
Arguing that a divine being is beyond our comprehension is not without merit. However I believe that we have intelligence for a reason, and we should use our intelligence carefully to understand what is possible for us to understand. <b>What I mean by this, is that do not necessarily think of this as questioning God, but questioning what is said about God. </b>
If what is said about God is not consistent, then how can we ever claim to know anything about God at all ?
I have tried to make a case, as others have, that the Bible presents a viewpoint that has contradictions. I agree that murder should be punished, but I am not someone who is capable of perfect love. According to the Bible, Jesus said "turn the other cheek". According to the Bible, love is amongst other things, not something that holds grudges/keeps records.
All these ideas are in contrast to the idea of a "judgement day" or eternal damnation. Judge this as you will without the idea of questioning God, but what is said about God. If you still think the Bible is accurate, then we will have to agree to disagree.
So then, as a person who executes the law (lol, I'm a Texan, so 'executing the law' is a disturbingly appropriate turn of phrase), would you say that any government or judicial system is morally bankrupt when it fulfills the designated punishment for the laws it laid down?
If that executory body is <i>not</i> morally bankrupt for dispensing punishment for violations, how is God any more morally corrupt for telling us "simply believe in me, and I will forgive all that you have done and ever will do; believe not in me, and you shall be sentenced to death (in the spiritual sense of death, not the physical)" ? He laid down his rules, and is following through on punishments....where's the moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy there?
Live well, and leave the rest in the hands of God. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To this I say "put faith in Him and His Son, and it matters not how you live. if you truly have faith, you will live as He will have you live, regardless of your intentions to live 'well' or otherwise."
Sorry, just had to throw that out there. I'm a firm believer in those that truly have faith will imitate Him, but those who do not imitate Him do not necessarily lack faith, but merely resolve. (I would know, Lord knows the last two years of my life have been an utter mess).
<!--QuoteBegin--Rat+Sep 29 2003, 10:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rat @ Sep 29 2003, 10:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So then, as a person who executes the law (lol, I'm a Texan, so 'executing the law' is a disturbingly appropriate turn of phrase), would you say that any government or judicial system is morally bankrupt when it fulfills the designated punishment for the laws it laid down?
If that executory body is <i>not</i> morally bankrupt for dispensing punishment for violations, how is God any more morally corrupt for telling us "simply believe in me, and I will forgive all that you have done and ever will do; believe not in me, and you shall be sentenced to death (in the spiritual sense of death, not the physical)" ? He laid down his rules, and is following through on punishments....where's the moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy there? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This does raise an interesting question. Is it possible for God to both love someone perfectly and dispense perfect justice on someone simultaneously ? This seems like a conflict of interest does it not ? Keeping in mind that punishing out of love, like a parent would (the Bible refers to God as the Father) implies that something useful for that person comes out of the punishment. Winking them out of reality or making them burn forever does not seem to be the most loving or productive now does it ?
As for your original question, I do not think the government or judicial system is morally bankrupt for following through on punishments. However, <i>neither of those claimed to love the person they were punishing. </i>
If God is inconsistent, by claiming to love (which is assumed to be perfect love), and then claims that he will hold you accountable no matter how much time has passed since you sinned till the time of judgement, then IMO this is morally bankrupt. It is inconsistent with the bible verse I quoted, and hypocritical because we are expected to "turn the other cheek" when God is not expected to do so.
<!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Sep 29 2003, 09:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Sep 29 2003, 09:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 29 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 29 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He's the almighty God, creator of life and everything though. You have to give him a little credit for knowing what the heck he's doing. If he does something hypocritical, well give him a little credit. He knows things we don't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Biggest.... Copout.... EVA!
Seriously though...
in this thread posting "Well hes god so it just works, yeah" is not acceptable, AFAIK.
<whistle> Foul, defence #1855, Out of Bounds and Delay of Game. 3 Post penalty, repeat first down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't "have a little faith" an appropriate post in this thread? I believe it is quite appropriate au contraire. I've never seen a person so focused on the meaning of the Bible without any faith in what he's reading.
<!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 29 2003, 11:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 29 2003, 11:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SkulkBait+Sep 29 2003, 09:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Sep 29 2003, 09:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Hawkeye+Sep 29 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Hawkeye @ Sep 29 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> He's the almighty God, creator of life and everything though. You have to give him a little credit for knowing what the heck he's doing. If he does something hypocritical, well give him a little credit. He knows things we don't. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Biggest.... Copout.... EVA!
Seriously though...
in this thread posting "Well hes god so it just works, yeah" is not acceptable, AFAIK.
<whistle> Foul, defence #1855, Out of Bounds and Delay of Game. 3 Post penalty, repeat first down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Isn't "have a little faith" an appropriate post in this thread? I believe it is quite appropriate au contraire. I've never seen a person so focused on the meaning of the Bible without any faith in what he's reading. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What is so damned hard to understand about this? The idea of "have a little faith" defeats the entire purpose of examining the accuracy of the bible. I mean, its says Noah could fit an enourmous amount of animals in a boat, could feed them in some way, could keep them from killing each other, and could somehow magically not produce a genetic bottleneck. But its ok that it doesn't make sense, we just need to have a little faith right? See what it does? It completely ruins the point of the exercise. Which is why Marine01 has said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well I'm trying to defend the Bible without "Well, he is God so he could make it happen in definace of everything logic tells us" because that is an arguement purely from Faith. And its impossible to argue against faith. And thats what this thread is for, friendly arguementation or discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Sep 30 2003, 04:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Sep 30 2003, 04:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This does raise an interesting question. Is it possible for God to both love someone perfectly and dispense perfect justice on someone simultaneously ? This seems like a conflict of interest does it not ? Keeping in mind that punishing out of love, like a parent would (the Bible refers to God as the Father) implies that something useful for that person comes out of the punishment. Winking them out of reality or making them burn forever does not seem to be the most loving or productive now does it ?
As for your original question, I do not think the government or judicial system is morally bankrupt for following through on punishments. However, <i>neither of those claimed to love the person they were punishing. </i>
If God is inconsistent, by claiming to love (which is assumed to be perfect love), and then claims that he will hold you accountable no matter how much time has passed since you sinned till the time of judgement, then IMO this is morally bankrupt. It is inconsistent with the bible verse I quoted, and hypocritical because we are expected to "turn the other cheek" when God is not expected to do so. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But he has laid down the rules. "the wages of sin is death" If you continue to sin, it would be morraly wrong <b>not</b> to punish you. If parents dont disipline thier child, he grows up to be a spoilt brat. If God didnt punish us and just said "well, ok, I'll let you into heaven this time." what kind of justice is that?? If everybody got into heaven no matter what they said or believed in, how is that fair? imagine you live you life going against temptation after temptation, striving to be good, and you end up sitting next to a serial rapist and murderer who denied God for the whole of his life? How is that fair?
God is eternal, so everything he does is eternal. his love, his grace, his punishments. Nothing that comes from God only lasts a few years - it is unchanging for ever. If you dont like it, you had better start looking at your life and clean up your act
<!--QuoteBegin--Z.X. Bogglesteinsky+Sep 30 2003, 02:29 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Z.X. Bogglesteinsky @ Sep 30 2003, 02:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--FilthyLarry+Sep 30 2003, 04:59 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FilthyLarry @ Sep 30 2003, 04:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> This does raise an interesting question. Is it possible for God to both love someone perfectly and dispense perfect justice on someone simultaneously ? This seems like a conflict of interest does it not ? Keeping in mind that punishing out of love, like a parent would (the Bible refers to God as the Father) implies that something useful for that person comes out of the punishment. Winking them out of reality or making them burn forever does not seem to be the most loving or productive now does it ?
As for your original question, I do not think the government or judicial system is morally bankrupt for following through on punishments. However, <i>neither of those claimed to love the person they were punishing. </i>
If God is inconsistent, by claiming to love (which is assumed to be perfect love), and then claims that he will hold you accountable no matter how much time has passed since you sinned till the time of judgement, then IMO this is morally bankrupt. It is inconsistent with the bible verse I quoted, and hypocritical because we are expected to "turn the other cheek" when God is not expected to do so. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But he has laid down the rules. "the wages of sin is death" If you continue to sin, it would be morraly wrong <b>not</b> to punish you. If parents dont disipline thier child, he grows up to be a spoilt brat. If God didnt punish us and just said "well, ok, I'll let you into heaven this time." what kind of justice is that?? If everybody got into heaven no matter what they said or believed in, how is that fair? imagine you live you life going against temptation after temptation, striving to be good, and you end up sitting next to a serial rapist and murderer who denied God for the whole of his life? How is that fair?
God is eternal, so everything he does is eternal. his love, his grace, his punishments. Nothing that comes from God only lasts a few years - it is unchanging for ever. If you dont like it, you had better start looking at your life and clean up your act <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When a parent punishes a child they do it so the child will stop the behavior. Since God delays punishment till your dead, and makes it last an eternity, its more akin to revenge then punishment.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you are quite correct in that in theory, nobody should ever be locked up because taking away someone's freedom is an evil act. In cases such as these you are simultaneously being evil (taking away freedom) and being good (protecting others). I don't think this contradicts my definition of good per se though, as long as it is understood that some acts are not exclusively good or bad. I see this almost as a component vector issue in math. Many actions have a good and bad component associated with them. It's just that we tend to label acts based on which end of the stick jabs us - the soft side or the pointy side.
My argument is essentialy that if God is all-powerful with all the salad dressings added etc. he could have essentially instilled within us the desire to do no concious harm to others. This does not mean that we would automatically not appreciate or understand love, because we would still know what it is like to experience no love, and not getting the help we would like sometimes.
In theory this means that you do not need to experience what most would term 'evil' to understand what most would term 'good'. In other words its more of an absence of good rather than an opposite of good that would then fuel this appreciation.
ok now I have to make a point......uhhh......
Oh yah so what do you think about God knowingly giving creation to Satan (Lucifer), Hitler, Stalin etc.?
Supposing God allowed man to have free will, and that mankind *creates* evil, that doesn't explain floods, droughts, earthquakes, tornados etc. There is plenty of "evil" in this world that isn't related to man's doing. It has to be God.
Plus, keep in mind that if mankind has free will, then God doesn't know what we will do next, thus rendering him from being all-knowing.
The problem of evil cannot be excused in a couple short sentences. It is old for a reason.. the problem has not been solved. Anybody who says God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-righteous cannot also admit evil exists in the world, for that would be a contradiction.
Admittedly the author of the thread is a bit of a flaming n00b, but dont let that discourage you.
I had 14 pages of direct qoutes in size 10 font.
Everything from tiny "who cares" topics to larger ideas such as murder, sexism, slavery etc
here are some examples.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are we saved through works?
Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ."
vs
James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Are we punished for our parents' sins?
Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation." (Repeated in Deuteronomy 5:9)
vs
Deuteronomy 24:16 "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is God peaceable?
Romans 15:33 "The God of peace."
vs
Exodus 15:3 "The Lord is a man of war." <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
vs
Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, I have to dispute the claim that the KJV is the most historically accurate version of the Bible in terms of Translation. It was created back in the 1600-1700's I believe, and our knowledge and understanding of ancient Greek and Hebrew has definately increased since then. We also have an extra 300-400 years of time to study the Bible, so I like to think we are getting closer to originality as time goes on, rather then further from.
Are we saved by Works?
Galations 2:16 of the NIV reads
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no-one will be justified<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines take on it: We are justified (saved) by faith in Jesus, not by observing the law (or doing the right thing), because at some point we are going to fail that law (do the wrong thing), and then we are screwed. The law depends on us follow it to the letter, or burn if we dont. Faith relies upon us believing in Jesus, nothing more, nothing less for justification or salvation.
I feel to grasp the context of the next section, a larger tract of the surrounding verses is needed. You will notice that James 2:24 is in there.
James 2:14 - 26 reads:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead."
But some will say, "you have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that - and shudder.
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the alter? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him righteousness," and he was called God's friend. (vs 24)You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone(/vs 24)
In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitue considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines note: As my Bible puts it in notes under Major Themes:
Thirdly, James emphasises the need to demonstrate one's faith by good works. His readers are deceiving themselves if they hear the word of God and fail to obey it. Anyone who has genuine faith must and will demonstrate that faith by their everyday life. The point is not that works are to be added to faith as an additional cause of justification. Rather, works are the natural consequence of true Christian faith. At first sight, this may appear to contradict Paul's assertion that a person is justified by faith (Ro 3:28). However, this is clearly not the case. Paul teaches that works have no place in securing our initial acceptance with God; James teaches that works are the subsequent evidence of a justifying faith.
I feel that pretty much answers that one. Taken with the surrounding scripture, James and Paul are in perfect agreement.
Are we punished for our parents' sins?
Exodus 20:4-6 is part of the list of the Ten commandments. Its the third one, make no idols. It reads:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. (vs5)You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, (/vs5) but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines note: Obviously, if you bow down to idols, you are going to REALLY frick him off. And he vows to get even. And he's even going to take it out not just on you, but on your whole family. Ouch. But you must remember how God punishes - not based on the severity of crime, but on a pass/fail. You sin, your punishment is death. Thus, its rings slightly hollow as a threat. They would sin and die anyway. That doesnt have me entirely convinced either, so I'm gonna have to find more out about that one. Bear in mind that all I am writing here is either straight from my Bible's commentary or my own reasoning, I havent got the "Big Guns" to help me <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The book of Deuteronomy contains a massive section of Laws and Customs given to the Jews. Deuteronomy 24:16 falls smack bang in the middle of this section, and thus we can reasonably assume that that this is a law being given to the Jews.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins. <!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines note: God's now starting to look like he has one set of rules for the Jews and one set of Rules for himself here. A point that might be relevant is what I made in the AFE thread, Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. God can punish the kids for dads error because God is without sin... Dont bother pointing out the logical flaw out, its pretty obvious to me too. This is definately one that has me wondering. I dont feel that I have answered it at all. I'll keep digging and see what I can come up with.
Is God peaceable?
Romans 15:33 is Paul signing off:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->The God of peace be with you all. Amen.<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Exodus 15:3 reads:
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->The LORD is a warrior; the LORD is his name<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Marines note: Exodus 15:3 is Jewish poetry. I think I pretty well covered this one in a post in the AFE, so im going to quote myself "Just because God "is a warrior" doesnt exclude him from being a God of Peace. He is dealing with what is pretty much evil personified, lucifer. And God fights with him, and if he didnt, then there would be no Peace. No contradiction, God fights for Peace. Thus he is a warrior and a God of Peace simultaneously."
Alright thats enough for now, I'll get to the rest when time permits me.
Let me get this straight, you criticise the bible for being written by a large collection of authors, but not the Koran based on a loose interpretation? That is a bit odd, because it can be equally as argued that the bible is just as divinely inspired as the Koran. Sure, I think a lot of the bible was from very human authors who simply wrote down historical events with their relgious twist on things. If they were inspired by God or a pink elephant on venus is entirely up to faith and or further interpretation.
I just find that a little odd an argument. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You seem to have missed the point of my post which was to, for want of a better word, "attack" those who were bringing up every bible reference that contradicted each other.
I was merely saying that most Christians believe that the Bible is "a collection of stories, laws, prayers, and all manner of things written by different people at different times."
I was not trying to question the validity of the Bible or anything, just giving what I feel was what the majority of Chrisitians believe.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Love is patient,
love is kind.
It does not envy,
It does not boast,
It is not proud.
It is not rude,
It is not self-seeking,
It is not easily angered,
It keeps no record of wrongs.
Love does not delight in evil
but rejoices with the truth.
It always protects,
always trusts,
always hopes,
always perseveres.
Love never fails.
1 Corinthians 13:4-8
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So .... Here is another nice contradiction. If love "keeps no record of wrongs" why are we judged for our sins ? Why are they not automatically forgotten if God loves us unconditionaly.
What about judgement day ? Seems like record keeping is needed for that.
So it seems God does not love us perfectly...or perhaps this implies that he is not perfect.
That is not unconditional love then. If God only forgets your wrongs if you do x, y and z, then his love is no longer unconditional. If you say that he loves even sinners, because he is supposed to love us all, then he should not remember the wrongs that they do as per the description of love given in the biblical text - <b>no matter what they do</b>. It seems that he does remember the wrongs of sinners that don't repent, and hence he does not love them in the perfect sense of love. God is supposed to be perfect though. See the problem here ?
This seems to be another case of "do as I say and not as I do" on the part of God.
God loves everyone, he will take no pleasure out of the suffering of his people in Hell. Forgiveness is available to all, just ask and its yours.
Remember, there are several parts to Gods nature, on is of love, and the other of Justice. And Justice takes precedent. Perhaps demonstrated best by God the Father and God the Son. God the Father is Justice, it says in the Bible that Jesus intercedes between God and mankind, convincing him not to follow Justice to its natural conclusion and wipe us out.
God the Son is love, but he knew love cannot argue with Justice, the Law of God must be upheld. If you sin, you shall die. No escaping that, no matter how much he loves his people. So Jesus took all the sin, paid the price for it, and then brought himself back to life. Thus anyone who asks Jesus for forgiveness can recieve it, he just puts your sin down on his tab.
Love without Justice isnt love at all. God is omniscent, its impossible for him not to know what you have done. He was more than willing to have it lumped on Jesus, and paid for that way.
God doesnt forget, when it comes to judgement day, everyone will be judged - the living and the dead. What will happen to Christians is that Jesus will step forward and say "this man is sinless. I am sinless so he is sinless" or something like that
God loves everyone, he will take no pleasure out of the suffering of his people in Hell. Forgiveness is available to all, just ask and its yours. .... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Last I checked, once you were condemed to hell, you could no longer repent and be saved. Thats sort of like a parent killing their child as punishment. Its not out of love, because no good can come of it.
Please note however, that last time I checked == never.
God loves everyone, he will take no pleasure out of the suffering of his people in Hell. Forgiveness is available to all, just ask and its yours.
Remember, there are several parts to Gods nature, on is of love, and the other of Justice. And Justice takes precedent. Perhaps demonstrated best by God the Father and God the Son. God the Father is Justice, it says in the Bible that Jesus intercedes between God and mankind, convincing him not to follow Justice to its natural conclusion and wipe us out.
God the Son is love, but he knew love cannot argue with Justice, the Law of God must be upheld. If you sin, you shall die. No escaping that, no matter how much he loves his people. So Jesus took all the sin, paid the price for it, and then brought himself back to life. Thus anyone who asks Jesus for forgiveness can recieve it, he just puts your sin down on his tab.
Love without Justice isnt love at all. God is omniscent, its impossible for him not to know what you have done. He was more than willing to have it lumped on Jesus, and paid for that way. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see your point. However if your parents waited till you were 70 to punish you for something you did at age 20 ... I think you'd consider this somewhat ridiculous ?
My counter-point - as SkulkBait suggests - is that if you punish out of love, you don't delay punishment till it is too late to be of use to someone. Obviously someone can lead a sinful life (which God allows) and then be punished at the end, when it is too late to do something about it. This tells me that it is a punishment that does not come out of a sense of love. It also violates the text I quoted because clearly record keeping is needed to <i>punish someone at a later date</i> - which seems to indicate that God is not capable of perfect love.
I can see where you are coming from with the Justice angle. However I believe that love takes precedence over justice, because love is what breathed life into the world is it not ? Love without justice is love in the purest sense, because it asks for nothing in exchange for itself. This I believe is what Jesus meant when he said "turn the other cheek". This is another contradiction because it seems to indicate that God is not prepared to "turn the other cheek" when he punishes us... see what I mean ?
no
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The point is it's a "do as I say and not as I do" approach. I.E. hypocritical.
Biggest.... Copout.... EVA!
Seriously though...
in this thread posting "Well hes god so it just works, yeah" is not acceptable, AFAIK.
<whistle> Foul, defence #1855, Out of Bounds and Delay of Game. 3 Post penalty, repeat first down.
What you are coming about here are the ideals of Unitarian Universalists.
Larry, God is so many times smarter than us as you probably already know, and everyone else I suspect. God is mysterious, his ways are not of this world. We cannot question the actions of God, who's intelligence and wisdom are infinite.
Live well, and leave the rest in the hands of God.
What you are coming about here are the ideals of Unitarian Universalists.
Larry, God is so many times smarter than us as you probably already know, and everyone else I suspect. God is mysterious, his ways are not of this world. We cannot question the actions of God, who's intelligence and wisdom are infinite.
Live well, and leave the rest in the hands of God. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As I said before, using the excuse that we can't possibly understand Gods motive to end an argument seems to be against the spirit of the forum (correct me if I'm wrong Marine01). So please stop doing it!
Of course you are. I'm just saying you can't use it as an argument here. Sorry if you took offence.
What you are coming about here are the ideals of Unitarian Universalists.
Larry, God is so many times smarter than us as you probably already know, and everyone else I suspect. God is mysterious, his ways are not of this world. We cannot question the actions of God, who's intelligence and wisdom are infinite.
Live well, and leave the rest in the hands of God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Kida,
I am glad we can agree on some points. The idea of someone being punished for all eternity is something that I cannot reconcile with any god that is supposed to have perfect love for us. I hold God to a higher standard than us because He is supposed to be perfect, and we're supposed to be flawed.
Speaking as someone who used to be a Christian, I think it is not so much the idea of whether God exists that many struggle with, so much as the idea of what He/She is, and the nature of our relationship with this entity.
So to this end, what do we know of God really ? It is only through observing inwardly and outwardly that we can begin to formulate ideas. Religions seem to be an organized collection of such ideas over time. The Bible is a supposed to be a written account of God's actions and desires for us. People essentially had to apply intelligence and reasoning when compiling these texts. Divinely inspired or not.
This is all well and good, but how do we know if these ideas are really accurate, or merely the product of someone's imagination ? There are those amongst us who love to use religion to manipulate people for their own purposes. How can we ever know if we do not apply the same intelligence and reasoning to then analyze the text and see if it presents a consistent description of God and our relationship with Him ?
So now we're taking a look at the text of the Bible very closely to see if there are contradictions in ideas. If contradictions exist, then the text is no longer completely accurate and all ideas are then suspect.
Arguing that a divine being is beyond our comprehension is not without merit. However I believe that we have intelligence for a reason, and we should use our intelligence carefully to understand what is possible for us to understand. <b>What I mean by this, is that do not necessarily think of this as questioning God, but questioning what is said about God. </b>
If what is said about God is not consistent, then how can we ever claim to know anything about God at all ?
I have tried to make a case, as others have, that the Bible presents a viewpoint that has contradictions. I agree that murder should be punished, but I am not someone who is capable of perfect love. According to the Bible, Jesus said "turn the other cheek". According to the Bible, love is amongst other things, not something that holds grudges/keeps records.
All these ideas are in contrast to the idea of a "judgement day" or eternal damnation. Judge this as you will without the idea of questioning God, but what is said about God. If you still think the Bible is accurate, then we will have to agree to disagree.
At any rate, I wish you well with your life also.
If that executory body is <i>not</i> morally bankrupt for dispensing punishment for violations, how is God any more morally corrupt for telling us "simply believe in me, and I will forgive all that you have done and ever will do; believe not in me, and you shall be sentenced to death (in the spiritual sense of death, not the physical)" ? He laid down his rules, and is following through on punishments....where's the moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy there?
Live well, and leave the rest in the hands of God. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
To this I say "put faith in Him and His Son, and it matters not how you live. if you truly have faith, you will live as He will have you live, regardless of your intentions to live 'well' or otherwise."
Sorry, just had to throw that out there. I'm a firm believer in those that truly have faith will imitate Him, but those who do not imitate Him do not necessarily lack faith, but merely resolve. (I would know, Lord knows the last two years of my life have been an utter mess).
If that executory body is <i>not</i> morally bankrupt for dispensing punishment for violations, how is God any more morally corrupt for telling us "simply believe in me, and I will forgive all that you have done and ever will do; believe not in me, and you shall be sentenced to death (in the spiritual sense of death, not the physical)" ? He laid down his rules, and is following through on punishments....where's the moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy there? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This does raise an interesting question. Is it possible for God to both love someone perfectly and dispense perfect justice on someone simultaneously ? This seems like a conflict of interest does it not ? Keeping in mind that punishing out of love, like a parent would (the Bible refers to God as the Father) implies that something useful for that person comes out of the punishment. Winking them out of reality or making them burn forever does not seem to be the most loving or productive now does it ?
As for your original question, I do not think the government or judicial system is morally bankrupt for following through on punishments. However, <i>neither of those claimed to love the person they were punishing. </i>
If God is inconsistent, by claiming to love (which is assumed to be perfect love), and then claims that he will hold you accountable no matter how much time has passed since you sinned till the time of judgement, then IMO this is morally bankrupt. It is inconsistent with the bible verse I quoted, and hypocritical because we are expected to "turn the other cheek" when God is not expected to do so.
Biggest.... Copout.... EVA!
Seriously though...
in this thread posting "Well hes god so it just works, yeah" is not acceptable, AFAIK.
<whistle> Foul, defence #1855, Out of Bounds and Delay of Game. 3 Post penalty, repeat first down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't "have a little faith" an appropriate post in this thread? I believe it is quite appropriate au contraire. I've never seen a person so focused on the meaning of the Bible without any faith in what he's reading.
Biggest.... Copout.... EVA!
Seriously though...
in this thread posting "Well hes god so it just works, yeah" is not acceptable, AFAIK.
<whistle> Foul, defence #1855, Out of Bounds and Delay of Game. 3 Post penalty, repeat first down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Isn't "have a little faith" an appropriate post in this thread? I believe it is quite appropriate au contraire. I've never seen a person so focused on the meaning of the Bible without any faith in what he's reading. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What is so damned hard to understand about this? The idea of "have a little faith" defeats the entire purpose of examining the accuracy of the bible. I mean, its says Noah could fit an enourmous amount of animals in a boat, could feed them in some way, could keep them from killing each other, and could somehow magically not produce a genetic bottleneck. But its ok that it doesn't make sense, we just need to have a little faith right? See what it does? It completely ruins the point of the exercise. Which is why Marine01 has said:
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Well I'm trying to defend the Bible without "Well, he is God so he could make it happen in definace of everything logic tells us" because that is an arguement purely from Faith. And its impossible to argue against faith. And thats what this thread is for, friendly arguementation or discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This does raise an interesting question. Is it possible for God to both love someone perfectly and dispense perfect justice on someone simultaneously ? This seems like a conflict of interest does it not ? Keeping in mind that punishing out of love, like a parent would (the Bible refers to God as the Father) implies that something useful for that person comes out of the punishment. Winking them out of reality or making them burn forever does not seem to be the most loving or productive now does it ?
As for your original question, I do not think the government or judicial system is morally bankrupt for following through on punishments. However, <i>neither of those claimed to love the person they were punishing. </i>
If God is inconsistent, by claiming to love (which is assumed to be perfect love), and then claims that he will hold you accountable no matter how much time has passed since you sinned till the time of judgement, then IMO this is morally bankrupt. It is inconsistent with the bible verse I quoted, and hypocritical because we are expected to "turn the other cheek" when God is not expected to do so. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But he has laid down the rules. "the wages of sin is death" If you continue to sin, it would be morraly wrong <b>not</b> to punish you. If parents dont disipline thier child, he grows up to be a spoilt brat. If God didnt punish us and just said "well, ok, I'll let you into heaven this time." what kind of justice is that?? If everybody got into heaven no matter what they said or believed in, how is that fair? imagine you live you life going against temptation after temptation, striving to be good, and you end up sitting next to a serial rapist and murderer who denied God for the whole of his life? How is that fair?
God is eternal, so everything he does is eternal. his love, his grace, his punishments. Nothing that comes from God only lasts a few years - it is unchanging for ever. If you dont like it, you had better start looking at your life and clean up your act
This does raise an interesting question. Is it possible for God to both love someone perfectly and dispense perfect justice on someone simultaneously ? This seems like a conflict of interest does it not ? Keeping in mind that punishing out of love, like a parent would (the Bible refers to God as the Father) implies that something useful for that person comes out of the punishment. Winking them out of reality or making them burn forever does not seem to be the most loving or productive now does it ?
As for your original question, I do not think the government or judicial system is morally bankrupt for following through on punishments. However, <i>neither of those claimed to love the person they were punishing. </i>
If God is inconsistent, by claiming to love (which is assumed to be perfect love), and then claims that he will hold you accountable no matter how much time has passed since you sinned till the time of judgement, then IMO this is morally bankrupt. It is inconsistent with the bible verse I quoted, and hypocritical because we are expected to "turn the other cheek" when God is not expected to do so. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But he has laid down the rules. "the wages of sin is death" If you continue to sin, it would be morraly wrong <b>not</b> to punish you. If parents dont disipline thier child, he grows up to be a spoilt brat. If God didnt punish us and just said "well, ok, I'll let you into heaven this time." what kind of justice is that?? If everybody got into heaven no matter what they said or believed in, how is that fair? imagine you live you life going against temptation after temptation, striving to be good, and you end up sitting next to a serial rapist and murderer who denied God for the whole of his life? How is that fair?
God is eternal, so everything he does is eternal. his love, his grace, his punishments. Nothing that comes from God only lasts a few years - it is unchanging for ever. If you dont like it, you had better start looking at your life and clean up your act <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
When a parent punishes a child they do it so the child will stop the behavior. Since God delays punishment till your dead, and makes it last an eternity, its more akin to revenge then punishment.