<!--QuoteBegin--Jummeh+Sep 18 2003, 03:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Jummeh @ Sep 18 2003, 03:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that if when you start evolving, and you suddenly decide you don't want that either by mistake or whatever. You will have to wait untill the end of your evolving time and pop back as the class you were before and only after that do you get your res back. This means that a marine can still come along and kill you for the bad spot of evolving and you would lose the res still.[...] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Now THAT'S a good one indeed. Shouldn't affect the balance at all (testing is still needed, of course), and it allows you to undo mistakes. Gets my vote.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->"Hmm, I'm an Onos, but they're handing out jetpacks and shotguns. Fade time. Whoa, now they're combining HA/HMG. Better switch to Onos and eat a few. Bah, Shotties? Back to Fade." And so on and so forth. Marines would never get a foot in the door. And if they did, the door would quickly gestate to a door with spikes.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very well-put. I don't think cancelling gestation to a new species should be allowed, but changing evolved traits is almost a must.. the only alternative is suicide and that just doesn't make sense. However, regarding cancelling respeciation...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that if when you start evolving, and you suddenly decide you don't want that either by mistake or whatever. You will have to wait untill the end of your evolving time and pop back as the class you were before and only after that do you get your res back. This means that a marine can still come along and kill you for the bad spot of evolving and you would lose the res still.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an excellent idea. You still lose your time and remain vulnerable, but you aren't punished with a team-crippling loss of resources. How many times have I began gestating to onos and then realized there were no gorges on my team? Oops. Those resources could have been a hive, several OCs and 3 upgrade chambers. People make mistakes.. a game is more fun when it's forgiving. Forbid cancelling of gestation in tournament mode, sure, but let us n0Obs in the public servers have some freedom to change our minds. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<3 the <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
Of course, changing your evolution upgrades doesn't actually give you THAT much flexibility - it still costs you 2 res and evolution time - or make it 4 res and double time for de-evolving first... that's better...
That way it's simply not practical to keep on changing, but does allow the alien to adapt to the needs of his new lifeform.
I still don't see a justification for the need for de-evolving or cancelling life-form evolutions that I can agree with, hence I think only the upgrades should be changeable. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--TyrNemesis^+Sep 18 2003, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TyrNemesis^ @ Sep 18 2003, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]but changing evolved traits is almost a must.. the only alternative is suicide and that just doesn't make sense.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem still is, how to balance it? The advantages may not be so pronounced, but the problems are the same as with getting resources back for changing evolutions. Too much flexibility at too little cost. The difference between an Onos with carapace and one without is quite pronounced actually. And a gorge with adrenaline can use healspray almost nonstop. A skulk with celerity is incredibly fast, a skulk with silence is very hard to track. And the Lerk benefits greatly from any movement upgrade. The two resources for a lost trait are not sufficient penalty. But how much is? This WOULD have a certain impact on balance. While it may be possible to balance it properly, that would take quite some time. The question is whether it's worth the investment.
Something to mull over while you're discussing the details of this:
An egg has somewhere in the region of 200+ health. Any damage taken while in an egg is discarded the moment you finish gestating. Because of this, any system that allowed you to escape an egg at will, or very shortly after beginning the gestate can potentially be used as an in-fight shield.
Ontop of this, the current ability to gestate in mid air would allow you to close distance while in egg form. Combined with the ability to cancel an evolution at will, skulks would then be able to 'egg-hop' their way towards you. Gestating in mid air, cancelling just before they land, bunnyhopping upon landing and then gestating again. All damage taken while the skulk was in egg form would then be discarded, making the skulk practically invulnerable.
The moral of the story is - changes that seem simple and trouble free at first can often be abused to a degree you would never think possible.
<!--QuoteBegin--TeoH+Sep 18 2003, 04:03 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TeoH @ Sep 18 2003, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Something to mull over while you're discussing the details of this:
An egg has somewhere in the region of 200+ health. Any damage taken while in an egg is discarded the moment you finish gestating. Because of this, any system that allowed you to escape an egg at will, or very shortly after beginning the gestate can potentially be used as an in-fight shield.
Ontop of this, the current ability to gestate in mid air would allow you to close distance while in egg form. Combined with the ability to cancel an evolution at will, skulks would then be able to 'egg-hop' their way towards you. Gestating in mid air, cancelling just before they land, bunnyhopping upon landing and then gestating again. All damage taken while the skulk was in egg form would then be discarded, making the skulk practically invulnerable.
The moral of the story is - changes that seem simple and trouble free at first can often be abused to a degree you would never think possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yep, which is why Jummeh's idea is actually quite excellent. No egg-hopping for you!
<!--QuoteBegin--lolfighter+Sep 18 2003, 08:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lolfighter @ Sep 18 2003, 08:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--TyrNemesis^+Sep 18 2003, 03:44 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TyrNemesis^ @ Sep 18 2003, 03:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[...]but changing evolved traits is almost a must.. the only alternative is suicide and that just doesn't make sense.[...]<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem still is, how to balance it? The advantages may not be so pronounced, but the problems are the same as with getting resources back for changing evolutions. Too much flexibility at too little cost. The difference between an Onos with carapace and one without is quite pronounced actually. And a gorge with adrenaline can use healspray almost nonstop. A skulk with celerity is incredibly fast, a skulk with silence is very hard to track. And the Lerk benefits greatly from any movement upgrade. The two resources for a lost trait are not sufficient penalty. But how much is? This WOULD have a certain impact on balance. While it may be possible to balance it properly, that would take quite some time. The question is whether it's worth the investment. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Except your 'potential situations' count for absolute crap. I mean, WHAT IF FLAYRA DIED OF A HEART ATTACK TODAY? The only way you can see what it would do is to test it, not pull these foolish situations out of your **** and say it's a good reason NOT to do something.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Except your 'potential situations' count for absolute crap. I mean, WHAT IF FLAYRA DIED OF A HEART ATTACK TODAY? The only way you can see what it would do is to test it, not pull these foolish situations out of your **** and say it's a good reason NOT to do something.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I have to agree with Teflon's...harshly worded comment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The moral of the story is - changes that seem simple and trouble free at first can often be abused to a degree you would never think possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, which is the main reason I disagree with allowing cancellation of interspecies evolution. Jummeh made a great suggestion at the top of page 3, which you probably didn't read. I'm only gunning for allowing a semi-costly and time-consuming change of Movement\Sensory\Defensive traits so aliens can adapt to combat on the fly without suiciding in order to become a skulk again and change traits. After all, marines can drop their weapons...
I'd also like to see marines able to drop Jetpacks, and possibly Heavy armor.. Though I can see several possible abuse issues there too.
The best thing is when you're an egg and a Marine walks up, and right when he starts shooting you turn into an Onos! Happened to me one time when I was changing to Onos- got really lucky. Happens more often when ur upgrading of course since it takes less time...
<!--QuoteBegin--JohnnySmash+Sep 18 2003, 07:59 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JohnnySmash @ Sep 18 2003, 07:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The best thing is when you're an egg and a Marine walks up, and right when he starts shooting you turn into an Onos! Happened to me one time when I was changing to Onos- got really lucky. Happens more often when ur upgrading of course since it takes less time...
-JohnnySmash <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lucky. I always die just BEFORE I emerge...
Anyways, I don't care HOW it's done, as long as:
1) I can remove and change my upgrades.
2) I can get some sort of refund and cancel my evolution if I evolve to the wrong class.
I like Jummeh's idea. As for dropping ha/jp, make it so they don't work for 5 seconds after another marine picks them up. This means that if they are dropped in the middle of a fight they won't help the marine that does pick them up, since they will kill the alien or be killed by then, but if a marine grabs the wrong equipment in base they can drop it for someone else. The 5 second time would have to be adjusted for balance, but that is the general idea.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like Jummeh's idea. As for dropping ha/jp, make it so they don't work for 5 seconds after another marine picks them up. This means that if they are dropped in the middle of a fight they won't help the marine that does pick them up, since they will kill the alien or be killed by then, but if a marine grabs the wrong equipment in base they can drop it for someone else. The 5 second time would have to be adjusted for balance, but that is the general idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh! <b>Even better!</b> Make Marines undergo a delay while they "change out" of HA or JP. They will see a gauge at the bottom of their screen just like a gestating alien, and after 10-20 seconds the HA or JP will drop in front of them and be "unequippable" for 5-10 seconds so the person won't accidentally put it back on.
Persons who die while wearing HA or JP, or while trying to remove them, will lose them just like normal.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Except your 'potential situations' count for absolute crap. I mean, WHAT IF FLAYRA DIED OF A HEART ATTACK TODAY? The only way you can see what it would do is to test it, not pull these foolish situations out of your **** and say it's a good reason NOT to do something - Teflon<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a little harsh, dont you think? You may get some differing opinions in this thread, after all.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cpl. Hicks+Sep 19 2003, 01:42 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl. Hicks @ Sep 19 2003, 01:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Except your 'potential situations' count for absolute crap. I mean, WHAT IF FLAYRA DIED OF A HEART ATTACK TODAY? The only way you can see what it would do is to test it, not pull these foolish situations out of your **** and say it's a good reason NOT to do something - Teflon<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That was a little harsh, dont you think? You may get some differing opinions in this thread, after all.
-Cpl. Hicks <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Okay, it was a little harsh, I admit, but hell, I'm tired of these naysayers just coming in and screaming "OMG UNBALANCED WTH OMG!!!11!1one" and they haven't even SEEN the idea implemented yet.
If you want to convince people of your side of the arguement, do it with logic and good examples, dont scream at them. If I screamed at all my employees all the time, Id be doing all the work in my pharmacy by myself <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You ( and others )make some good points, and in retrospect, I do now think it would be nice to have some way for aliens to re-evolove upgrades ( with some penalties, of course ) -- but I dont like the idea of cancelling gestation outright. It seems to tricky to implement and too exploitable if it were. Again, that is my <i>opinion</i>. If you dont like it, well, Im married, and Im used to being told im wrong all the time. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oooo. Hicks works in a pharmacy. I want some Etorphine <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> j\k
But yeah. Let's see the Marines able to get out of their HA\JP. I wanna test it out and see how it works, if people get lame with it or not. 10 seconds of immobility while a marine removes a jetpack, 20 seconds while he removes a HA. Nobody can pick up that particular HA or JP for 10 seconds. I like the idea!
You must dislike breathing! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Teflon+Sep 17 2003, 08:15 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Teflon @ Sep 17 2003, 08:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b><span style='color:red'>PAY ATTENTION TO THIS POST</span></b> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> Find it admist the spam.
Canceling gestation. Most of you just plaster your tiny minds with this idea that I press a button and POOF I pop out of my egg safe and sound. Right? Am I right? Right.
Instead...
<span style='color:orange'>When canceling while gestating into a LIFEFORM I must 'tick off' any time I've spent gestating. So if I accidently evolve to a gorge, if I'm fast, I'll loose almost no time at all gestating (I've spent 4 seconds gestating, I then must spend 4 seconds UNgestating, and then I'll pop out of the egg). This means that unless you pop into gestation while a marine is right in front of you, the marine will almost always be able to knife your egg to death.
You get a full refund of res.</span>
<span style='color:yellow'>Canceling an UPGRADE. This is to NOT punish players that live for a long time, and then have enough res to evolve to a higher lifeform. Naturally you'd want regen instead of carapace for your lerk, but you're better off 'kill'ing yourself then evolving to lerk and suffering with cara. So, you choose which upgrade via RMB that you want to loose (Go to Evolve Upgrade -> Click on trait type you want to loose (D M or S)) and you 'unevolve' it (Same time spent as gaining the trait). Then when you're finished, you have no upgrade, and are free to choose a new one.</span>
More info HERE: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=45920' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=45920</a>
<span style='color:green'>Example: Skulk goes to evolve into a fade but clicks on Lerk by accident. While in the gestation state he brings up the menu again and clicks the Fade button. Skulk now has to wait for the evo progress made to go back to zero and THEN it'll instantly begin counting up again until Fade is reached. If he chooses his old class (Skulk) the process ticks off to zero and he pops out safe and sound.</span>'
A dev said that the 'liens were supposed to be free-evolving, adapting to the situation and not having to call on others to do it for them. This would actually make that true. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A wonderfull alternative solution. My vote is with you.
Even from a rine perspective many players will seem to be in a gestating state more often since they will be changing their upgrades/traits and Evolutions.
<span style='color:red'>One important idea to consider: Aliens should Not get back their Res. Primarly I say this because they had the advantage to gain use of the abillities during the time in which they were aliens. In addition aliens would have about 200 tappable res theroreticaly if they are an onos at the time.</span>
Imagine what would happen if an Ono's storms un unprotected outpost at a hive when the aliens are losing their last hive. They could de-evolve into a gorge, get quick res, and build a hive and RC, with basic fortifications even with no res to begin with!
I think the above senario, and ones simialiar too it would pose too much of a boon to alien come backs. Unless you want the seige to shoot at alien player targets, I don't think there should be a res recoup. But the Idea of de-evolving is a great one i agree with.
<!--QuoteBegin--TyrNemesis^+Sep 19 2003, 12:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TyrNemesis^ @ Sep 19 2003, 12:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like Jummeh's idea. As for dropping ha/jp, make it so they don't work for 5 seconds after another marine picks them up. This means that if they are dropped in the middle of a fight they won't help the marine that does pick them up, since they will kill the alien or be killed by then, but if a marine grabs the wrong equipment in base they can drop it for someone else. The 5 second time would have to be adjusted for balance, but that is the general idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ahh! <b>Even better!</b> Make Marines undergo a delay while they "change out" of HA or JP. They will see a gauge at the bottom of their screen just like a gestating alien, and after 10-20 seconds the HA or JP will drop in front of them and be "unequippable" for 5-10 seconds so the person won't accidentally put it back on.
Persons who die while wearing HA or JP, or while trying to remove them, will lose them just like normal. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As a balance for rines Mb Heavy armor and jetpacks should be dropped when they die all the time?
Nahh. I mean, if you get gored by an Onos in heavy armor and die, the armor is going to be an absolute mess of twisted metal and blood and guts. Certainly not re-usable. However, if the Marine takes caution to properly remove the armor, it should be droppable for his teammates to use. This prevents people from recycling HA for their teammates when they're about to die, but allows peace-time players to drop HA for other people when they want to change to JP or leave the server.
The time-delay and immobility makes it impossible to use as a mid-combat option;
The dropped HA\JP should have a lifespan like a dropped weapon, so they're fairly hot commodities;
This option deals with the problem of people suiciding because I gave them HA when they wanted JP. This angers me in a way I cannot explain, and usually leads me to waypoint that person into an onos or a well-defended hive and mute their voice comms.
Heh. While this was a "cancelling gestation" thread, I think the discussion of reclassification for both species has been a good one.
Avitar: I believe Teflon's idea (the one you quoted) was for people to be able to cancel gestations while they were gestating. If you choose to evolve to onos, then you could instead change to becoming a gorge WHILE YOU ARE STILL AN EGG. Once you pop out of the egg you can't cancel the gestation and you can't get the resources back. At least that is what I got from it.
<!--QuoteBegin--i'm lost+Sep 19 2003, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (i'm lost @ Sep 19 2003, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Avitar: I believe Teflon's idea (the one you quoted) was for people to be able to cancel gestations while they were gestating. If you choose to evolve to onos, then you could instead change to becoming a gorge WHILE YOU ARE STILL AN EGG. Once you pop out of the egg you can't cancel the gestation and you can't get the resources back. At least that is what I got from it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Close. If you were evolving to onos from gorge, and seven seconds into gestating, a teammate says 'Jetpackers!' and you say to yourself: "Crap! I'd rather go fade now that there's jetpackers!", then you'll go and select 'fade' and the timer begins to count BACKWARDS to zero. So you have to spend seven more seconds UNgestating. When those seven seconds are up, then you get a res refund and begin evolving to fade. If you wanted to go back to gorge, you select 'gorge' and the time ticks off, but when it reaches zero you pop out.
But like someone said, this can be abusable, so I think a modest minimum time should have to be spent (Perhaps half the time to normally evolve. For example, 15 seconds to cancel from Onos) gestating BEFORE the timer reverses.
Comments
This means that a marine can still come along and kill you for the bad spot of evolving and you would lose the res still.[...] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now THAT'S a good one indeed. Shouldn't affect the balance at all (testing is still needed, of course), and it allows you to undo mistakes. Gets my vote.
Very well-put. I don't think cancelling gestation to a new species should be allowed, but changing evolved traits is almost a must.. the only alternative is suicide and that just doesn't make sense. However, regarding cancelling respeciation...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that if when you start evolving, and you suddenly decide you don't want that either by mistake or whatever. You will have to wait untill the end of your evolving time and pop back as the class you were before and only after that do you get your res back. This means that a marine can still come along and kill you for the bad spot of evolving and you would lose the res still.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is an excellent idea. You still lose your time and remain vulnerable, but you aren't punished with a team-crippling loss of resources. How many times have I began gestating to onos and then realized there were no gorges on my team? Oops. Those resources could have been a hive, several OCs and 3 upgrade chambers. People make mistakes.. a game is more fun when it's forgiving. Forbid cancelling of gestation in tournament mode, sure, but let us n0Obs in the public servers have some freedom to change our minds. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<3 the <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo-->
That way it's simply not practical to keep on changing, but does allow the alien to adapt to the needs of his new lifeform.
I still don't see a justification for the need for de-evolving or cancelling life-form evolutions that I can agree with, hence I think only the upgrades should be changeable. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Roo
The problem still is, how to balance it? The advantages may not be so pronounced, but the problems are the same as with getting resources back for changing evolutions. Too much flexibility at too little cost. The difference between an Onos with carapace and one without is quite pronounced actually. And a gorge with adrenaline can use healspray almost nonstop. A skulk with celerity is incredibly fast, a skulk with silence is very hard to track. And the Lerk benefits greatly from any movement upgrade. The two resources for a lost trait are not sufficient penalty. But how much is? This WOULD have a certain impact on balance. While it may be possible to balance it properly, that would take quite some time. The question is whether it's worth the investment.
An egg has somewhere in the region of 200+ health. Any damage taken while in an egg is discarded the moment you finish gestating. Because of this, any system that allowed you to escape an egg at will, or very shortly after beginning the gestate can potentially be used as an in-fight shield.
Ontop of this, the current ability to gestate in mid air would allow you to close distance while in egg form. Combined with the ability to cancel an evolution at will, skulks would then be able to 'egg-hop' their way towards you. Gestating in mid air, cancelling just before they land, bunnyhopping upon landing and then gestating again. All damage taken while the skulk was in egg form would then be discarded, making the skulk practically invulnerable.
The moral of the story is - changes that seem simple and trouble free at first can often be abused to a degree you would never think possible.
An egg has somewhere in the region of 200+ health. Any damage taken while in an egg is discarded the moment you finish gestating. Because of this, any system that allowed you to escape an egg at will, or very shortly after beginning the gestate can potentially be used as an in-fight shield.
Ontop of this, the current ability to gestate in mid air would allow you to close distance while in egg form. Combined with the ability to cancel an evolution at will, skulks would then be able to 'egg-hop' their way towards you. Gestating in mid air, cancelling just before they land, bunnyhopping upon landing and then gestating again. All damage taken while the skulk was in egg form would then be discarded, making the skulk practically invulnerable.
The moral of the story is - changes that seem simple and trouble free at first can often be abused to a degree you would never think possible. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep, which is why Jummeh's idea is actually quite excellent. No egg-hopping for you!
The problem still is, how to balance it? The advantages may not be so pronounced, but the problems are the same as with getting resources back for changing evolutions. Too much flexibility at too little cost. The difference between an Onos with carapace and one without is quite pronounced actually. And a gorge with adrenaline can use healspray almost nonstop. A skulk with celerity is incredibly fast, a skulk with silence is very hard to track. And the Lerk benefits greatly from any movement upgrade. The two resources for a lost trait are not sufficient penalty. But how much is? This WOULD have a certain impact on balance. While it may be possible to balance it properly, that would take quite some time. The question is whether it's worth the investment. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except your 'potential situations' count for absolute crap. I mean, WHAT IF FLAYRA DIED OF A HEART ATTACK TODAY? The only way you can see what it would do is to test it, not pull these foolish situations out of your **** and say it's a good reason NOT to do something.
I have to agree with Teflon's...harshly worded comment.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The moral of the story is - changes that seem simple and trouble free at first can often be abused to a degree you would never think possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Of course, which is the main reason I disagree with allowing cancellation of interspecies evolution. Jummeh made a great suggestion at the top of page 3, which you probably didn't read. I'm only gunning for allowing a semi-costly and time-consuming change of Movement\Sensory\Defensive traits so aliens can adapt to combat on the fly without suiciding in order to become a skulk again and change traits. After all, marines can drop their weapons...
I'd also like to see marines able to drop Jetpacks, and possibly Heavy armor.. Though I can see several possible abuse issues there too.
-JohnnySmash
-JohnnySmash <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lucky. I always die just BEFORE I emerge...
Anyways, I don't care HOW it's done, as long as:
1) I can remove and change my upgrades.
2) I can get some sort of refund and cancel my evolution if I evolve to the wrong class.
3) Marines can get an ice cream truck.
Ahh! <b>Even better!</b> Make Marines undergo a delay while they "change out" of HA or JP. They will see a gauge at the bottom of their screen just like a gestating alien, and after 10-20 seconds the HA or JP will drop in front of them and be "unequippable" for 5-10 seconds so the person won't accidentally put it back on.
Persons who die while wearing HA or JP, or while trying to remove them, will lose them just like normal.
That was a little harsh, dont you think? You may get some differing opinions in this thread, after all.
-Cpl. Hicks
That was a little harsh, dont you think? You may get some differing opinions in this thread, after all.
-Cpl. Hicks <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, it was a little harsh, I admit, but hell, I'm tired of these naysayers just coming in and screaming "OMG UNBALANCED WTH OMG!!!11!1one" and they haven't even SEEN the idea implemented yet.
You ( and others )make some good points, and in retrospect, I do now think it would be nice to have some way for aliens to re-evolove upgrades ( with some penalties, of course ) -- but I dont like the idea of cancelling gestation outright. It seems to tricky to implement and too exploitable if it were. Again, that is my <i>opinion</i>. If you dont like it, well, Im married, and Im used to being told im wrong all the time. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Cpl. Hicks
But yeah. Let's see the Marines able to get out of their HA\JP. I wanna test it out and see how it works, if people get lame with it or not. 10 seconds of immobility while a marine removes a jetpack, 20 seconds while he removes a HA. Nobody can pick up that particular HA or JP for 10 seconds. I like the idea!
*bump*
You must dislike breathing! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
-Cpl. Hicks
I bet it'd make a great Onos tranquilizer, however.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> - - - - - - - > <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
Hey Bessie! How bout gestating into a...COMA! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Well, we've heard the majority of the arguments on this issue... Now the question remains--what will be done about it?
Canceling gestation. Most of you just plaster your tiny minds with this idea that I press a button and POOF I pop out of my egg safe and sound. Right? Am I right? Right.
Instead...
<span style='color:orange'>When canceling while gestating into a LIFEFORM I must 'tick off' any time I've spent gestating. So if I accidently evolve to a gorge, if I'm fast, I'll loose almost no time at all gestating (I've spent 4 seconds gestating, I then must spend 4 seconds UNgestating, and then I'll pop out of the egg). This means that unless you pop into gestation while a marine is right in front of you, the marine will almost always be able to knife your egg to death.
You get a full refund of res.</span>
<span style='color:yellow'>Canceling an UPGRADE. This is to NOT punish players that live for a long time, and then have enough res to evolve to a higher lifeform. Naturally you'd want regen instead of carapace for your lerk, but you're better off 'kill'ing yourself then evolving to lerk and suffering with cara. So, you choose which upgrade via RMB that you want to loose (Go to Evolve Upgrade -> Click on trait type you want to loose (D M or S)) and you 'unevolve' it (Same time spent as gaining the trait). Then when you're finished, you have no upgrade, and are free to choose a new one.</span>
More info HERE: <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=5&t=45920' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=5&t=45920</a>
<span style='color:green'>Example: Skulk goes to evolve into a fade but clicks on Lerk by accident.
While in the gestation state he brings up the menu again and clicks the Fade button.
Skulk now has to wait for the evo progress made to go back to zero and THEN it'll instantly begin counting up again until Fade is reached.
If he chooses his old class (Skulk) the process ticks off to zero and he pops out safe and sound.</span>'
A dev said that the 'liens were supposed to be free-evolving, adapting to the situation and not having to call on others to do it for them. This would actually make that true. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A wonderfull alternative solution. My vote is with you.
Even from a rine perspective many players will seem to be in a gestating state more often since they will be changing their upgrades/traits and Evolutions.
<span style='color:red'>One important idea to consider: Aliens should Not get back their Res. Primarly I say this because they had the advantage to gain use of the abillities during the time in which they were aliens. In addition aliens would have about 200 tappable res theroreticaly if they are an onos at the time.</span>
Imagine what would happen if an Ono's storms un unprotected outpost at a hive when the aliens are losing their last hive. They could de-evolve into a gorge, get quick res, and build a hive and RC, with basic fortifications even with no res to begin with!
I think the above senario, and ones simialiar too it would pose too much of a boon to alien come backs. Unless you want the seige to shoot at alien player targets, I don't think there should be a res recoup. But the Idea of de-evolving is a great one i agree with.
Ahh! <b>Even better!</b> Make Marines undergo a delay while they "change out" of HA or JP. They will see a gauge at the bottom of their screen just like a gestating alien, and after 10-20 seconds the HA or JP will drop in front of them and be "unequippable" for 5-10 seconds so the person won't accidentally put it back on.
Persons who die while wearing HA or JP, or while trying to remove them, will lose them just like normal. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
As a balance for rines Mb Heavy armor and jetpacks should be dropped when they die all the time?
The time-delay and immobility makes it impossible to use as a mid-combat option;
The dropped HA\JP should have a lifespan like a dropped weapon, so they're fairly hot commodities;
This option deals with the problem of people suiciding because I gave them HA when they wanted JP. This angers me in a way I cannot explain, and usually leads me to waypoint that person into an onos or a well-defended hive and mute their voice comms.
Heh. While this was a "cancelling gestation" thread, I think the discussion of reclassification for both species has been a good one.
Close. If you were evolving to onos from gorge, and seven seconds into gestating, a teammate says 'Jetpackers!' and you say to yourself: "Crap! I'd rather go fade now that there's jetpackers!", then you'll go and select 'fade' and the timer begins to count BACKWARDS to zero. So you have to spend seven more seconds UNgestating. When those seven seconds are up, then you get a res refund and begin evolving to fade. If you wanted to go back to gorge, you select 'gorge' and the time ticks off, but when it reaches zero you pop out.
But like someone said, this can be abusable, so I think a modest minimum time should have to be spent (Perhaps half the time to normally evolve. For example, 15 seconds to cancel from Onos) gestating BEFORE the timer reverses.