Time To Collect Some Information...

KungFuSquirrel · September 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Eclipse, Veil, and Nothing</div> Hey guys. Been a while since 2.0 has released, and I think it's about time to start collecting your thoughts on my two maps (ns_eclipse and ns_veil) and maintenance on ns_nothing. Here's my general attitude towards each at the moment:

Eclipse: It's been a long time, and it's about time to put this one to rest. I'd like my next revision to this map to be the final one. I still am meaning to re-build maintenance, and those of you familiar with the PT builds and/or old screenshots may be pleased to know the version I'm hoping to revert to.

Veil: Veil was received a lot better than I expected, but it still is in need of some work. This one's going to need at least another build before it's where I want it to be.

Nothing: This is a tough one to work on, and the less work I have to do on it the better. Not that I hate it, mind - It's an honor to be working on it, but given that I have two other maps entirely of my own as well as others in development, it's easier to avoid this one if possible. However, if it needs updates, it needs updates, and I'll take suggestions on it.

Go ahead and go off on every critique you have on all of them - I can't promise I'll act on all of them, of course, but this is generally the best way to compile suggestions and make the according changes that will best suit both my interests as well as the players'. If you can organize it somewhat like what I did with a little bold heading for each map, that'd make it a lot easier. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Hmm. Maybe this should actually be in General, but I'll post it here... if anyone wants to move it, go ahead.

Jmmsbnd007 · September 2003

I miss the old eclipse :/ Maint really messed up the new one, make it small and interesting like the old version.
Veil is pretty good, although in matches it's a campfest of topo/west.
Nothing = "elite" map. Almost nothing (no pun intended) needs to be changed.

Grendel · September 2003

You can siege double node on Veil from marine spawn. Just in case you didn't already know.

Beast · September 2003

OK here goes:

Eclipse:
Very nice, very pretty, and a good flow of play early->mid gane. Endgame will usually, on pubs, lead to the camping of marine spawn. The doors are just a bit too narrow in my opinion - meaning its difficult, if impossible, to take down teh spawn if the entire spawn is guared by a co-ordinated marine team who have a "base" at both sides. Aside from marine spawn, I like it <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Veil: I love this map. It's just awesome for skulking, the walls are so wallclimb friendly - I think this needs to be expanded upon as I feel this is what personally identifies this map for me <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>. It also needs some more "moody" bits (dunno...like...a scary hole in the wall or something)

Nothing: Almost wrote a load of paragraphs about NS_caged. I am such a nub >_<
Ok, as for nothing, I like the changed made to it so far. The marine start entrances could do with being a bit wider. I like the fixes to cargo and stuff. I think some areas need to be a bit more onos/skulk friendly but thats about it.

Keep up the good work KFS <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Hypergrip · September 2003

ns_eclipse:
The classic... the one and only... still one of most popular maps for NS.
I'm looking forward to see the final changes to maintenance hive (it looks a bit "unspectacular" right now), but I can't really think of anything gameplay related that should be changed here.

ns_veil:
I don't like veil as much as I like eclipse, but still think it's a very nice map.
I think it's a big large, but that's ok.. no need to change the layout.
But Pipeline hive is a bit too easy to lock down imho... maybe add a vent that leads direclty into the hive room.

Another thing I miss is more variety in color...
Veil has the basic orange+red lighting that eclipse used and there are also some blue elements (mainly screens), but since it is a very large map the players will most of the time be in an area with orange+red lighting.

ns_nothing (aka ns_orange):
I always loved nothing, because it has an awsome lighting... wich changed a bit during the 2.0 playtests.
I remember a time when nothing was quite dark with some really intense lighting... due to public demand by other PTs/Vets it was brightened up again.
I can live with that, but I think it just has some "orange" touch now in the central areas of the map.
If you want to change anything on that map, maybe make that lighting a bit more "sharp".

I would not recommend any gameplay relevant changes on that map (besides bug-fixes life elevator-stucking), but if you really want to add something to the map, maybe a vent at silo hive (starting as Silo hive can be a death trap if Marines are rushing and Aliens fail to ambush).

That's jsut the first little things that came to my mind.. not very detailed, but maybe helpful anyway.

Hyper

moultano · September 2003

I miss the water in computer core. It looked really good.

There is a texture misalignment on a light at the top of viaduct hive on the side towards the marine spawn. I think that light was also left out of the rad file.

Cloak_of_Letters · September 2003

I discovered a solution to <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=38738&hl=ladder,and,barney' target='_blank'>the hanging ladder problem</a> while ago. I think you should bring back the old maintenance ladder in some form just for spite.

SMOKEDHAM · September 2003

Eclipse is by far my favorite map, the gameplay is specatacular. Veil as well is superb. I enjoy nothing, but i have one complaint. Marines dominate powersilo due to the incredibly long hallways leading to the hive. A single marine guarding the hallway can easily kill 3 skulks without a scratch. I think it would be reasonable to extend the little red L shaped vent, from Via -> power silo hall, into powersilo hive. Its exit would be below the rafters just above the acid, allowing only skulks and lerks to exit safely.

Legionnaired · September 2003

Eclipse, I think, is fine as is. The only thing I would consider doing is finding a way to open up maintnance a bit, but I think it's fine how it is. Also, I too miss the water in commcore.

Veil is perfect, save for the seiging of double. If the marines use chokepoints, they can take 5 nozzles, and seige the two in the double, leaving only 3 for the Aliens. See the attached picture (part of Legionnaired's HOW TO WIN Part 2).

Nothing... I really Like as is, but cargo needs some tweaking, it's the easest hive to hold. Maybe add a hallway to the north of the room connecting into the room, which would mean a single WOL wouldn't be able to lock it off.

Legionnaired · September 2003

Forgot the pic. Blue nodes are marine controlled, red nodes are alien controlled, and the green boxes indicate places where a static defense system would cause those res nodes to be controlled in such a way.

Umbraed_Monkey · September 2003

for ns_eclipse, the hallways just outside of marine spawn that leads to maint (also primary access corridor A1) was changed between version 1.0 and 2.0. The old one used to have this black band (i think the same texture as the ones common in comp core) running across the middle of the wall. I would like to see them come back to eclipse... they were very pleasing to the eye. Right now, the said hallways are very bland. Not only that, if its possible, I wish the same style of hallways would be repeated in veil somewhat.

Also, the new electric arcs at The Keyhole (eclipse) are horrible...the diagonal lines scrolling up does not seem like electricity at all. Either get a new texture for that or use the old one.

another vote for compcore water.

Ollj · September 2003

eclipse:
vent to marine spawn is too evil on publics.
All vents are too dark and skulk/lerk/fade unfriendly.
Maintenance is just right, maybe missing some eye candy.
You hardly can enter the vent from southloop to maintenance (bad hullfile).

Veil:
I dont think doubleres should be siegeable from marine spawn.
The map has orientation missing. I get lost near doubleres regulary allthough I know the map really good.
Be carefull where you evolve into a fade, you can get stuck below.
And the left side is strategically more attractive (damn no use if jetpacks).
Distance from left to right hive is too long. give me a horizontal vent south of doubleres.

ns_nothing:
the elevators suck in ballance. By placing a marine outpost on top, no onos can reach the upper side alife when its guarded.
The elevators are buggy and too slow.
Resnodes are still imballanced to the left side.
Generator room needs a vent.

KungFuDiscoMonkey · September 2003

Eclipse: Another vote for the water in commcore, and switch the electricial arcs in the keyhole back to the old style.

Veil: and Nothing: Really good as they are. I can't think of any improvements to make on them right now.

JazzX · September 2003

Eclipse: My favorite 1.0x map, and in my top 3 right now. Visually I love the map and I couldn't ask for anything there. Gameplay wise I feel balance is very good for the map overall, and when the game itself is balanced I think eclipse will be as well.

Eclipse is an excellent example of a map that does not give the aliens two res nodes with every hive. If you want to hold Triad, Subjunction 3, or South Loop you need to defend them. And that is where my only real beef with the map lies. With SAA's res node pushed closer to CC in 2.0, Subjunction 3 is very very hard to keep alive. The marines frequently will cap SAA and then naturally push onto the Subjunction res node because it is so close. I have never seen the aliens hold it and the marines hold SAA without a LOT of res spent on OC's and DC's. I might be blowing a minor thing out of proportion, however that is my only true "complaint" about an excellent map.

Veil: Easily my favorite new map from 2.0, though I enjoy the other new maps as well. I love Marine Start on this map, as well as the homage to the 1.0x Eclipse MS in the cargo hive. Lots and lots of good things about this map, and it was on Veil that I had my first epic 2.0 game, lasting well over 2 hours.

I personally hate the fact that the double res is siegable from the Monitoring Pods 1 and 2 in MS. Double res are such a focal point of pub games that being able to take out an alien outpost there without "leaving home" as it were is very unfortunate. Aside from that it seems that marines far more frequently will run to Subsector and lock it down instead of Pipeline. And I think this has to do with the fact that there is a very direct route to Subsector where as the route to Pipeline is more complicated. I like the variety you get, however it does seem to make the marines favor one over the other. I'm not sure I would change the structure of either side of the map only due to that though.

Vent placement is outstanding on Veil, and I think if Jet Packs become more common equipment again we could see some very crazy paths being taken for hive assults. Overall I really love this map minus the siegablity of Nano Grid from Marine Start.

Nothing: The changes you made to this map were all very good (not to mention necessary with 2.0's gameplay). I can't think of any changes that I would make at this point.

boobs! · September 2003

Eclipse : if its the old maint (from PTing time) then its a go, i love the rest of the map how it is.

veil: marine start seiging double = evil; also archway on bottom of double stairs (from double to cargo) could be raised a bit so onos dont have to duck.

nothing: Silo silo silo. Just what steamed said , long hallway = bad, oh and the elevators are dumb. they allow you to stick the other team if you press the button while its moving and then make it so it has to be re-pressed again to move again and so on and so forth. so lets say a skulk on the bottom of generator is pressing the button to slow down the marines.

KRagg · September 2003

ns_eclipse is one of my favourites and the only thing that comes to mind is that due to the open layout, the vents doesn't seem to get very much usage, especially the ones by triad.

ns_veil... What Grendel said, first of all. It seems to be getting a pretty popular tactic when aliens get double res and marines haven't relocated to simply siege the nodes, which is pretty cheap since there's virtually no risk to the marines except for the res cost. I'd love to see some more long-distance vents there, but due to the open and compact design of the map, I'm not really sure how much use those would be.

Perhaps a vent going from somewhere around the Dome to somewhere around Y junction and one from East Junction to West Junction and another vent somewhere in the upper right part of the map, perhaps to Topgraphical Analysis.

The lower elevator button is somewhat hard to use as an Onos, haven't tried the upper at all as Onos.

ns_nothing... A vent directly into powersilo would be nice. Generator room seems a bit too biased for marines.

They can deny aliens access to four nodes by sieging from that room, unless I'm mistaken, and there's almost nothing at all to make powersilo an interesting area to hold. Perhaps moving Ventilation chamber res and one of the two lower siegable from gen rom res nodes to the powersilo area to make it more balanced in terms of areas that are important to hold.

FANoelson · September 2003

as a warning my knowledge and opinions are all based on pub games.

nothing::
im not sure if it still works but a skulk could stop an an elevator. i would like a non elevator route out of silo and ventilation but it seems to be balanced, so unless im wrong i would worry about changing it. ive won plenty of times as kharaa and marines.

eclipse::
the vent in MS is pure evil in public. a decent lerk can spore MS the whole game.

veil::
although i havent seen it done yet being able to siege out double from MS is a bad thing. Legionnaired speaks for me pertaining the map as a whole. i do think that pipleline hive could use a vent. a decent marine team can set up there and hold out indefinetly (in pub of course)

My Big FIX ME is in Veil
"The lower elevator button is somewhat hard to use as an Onos, haven't tried the upper at all as Onos." thanks K'Ragg!!! that button is satan incarnate. as a gorg and onos that button takes at least five tries to hit. you have to hop as a gorg and onos just cant get to it. that button is going to drive me insane.

amckern · September 2003

Eclipse

Best torney, and PUG map, very easy to get from point a - to point b, and good for long drawn out fights

I like it

But!

gorgs bile the tri res

Main - its sucky, and also, the res tower, is in the wrong spot, it should have at least some form of cover, from key rines

command's vent should be moved back to where it was in 1.x

Veil - coming from the west hive, the onous gets stuck, you so u got to crouch

see copy and paste, with problem stair case in white box

also, over look has not enogh cover for rines, when the xeno are upto the take rine base out stage

nothing update is very good, though only small, it shows that big cahnge is not needed on some maps (I hope i got the the right map, its got cargo hive, and via hive)

amckern

Lazer · September 2003

I agree with the whole "put the water in compcore back". I miss it too. I don't really have any problems with veil, although it is a bit easy for marines to walk around and kill skulks, but I find that more near the marine start. You might want to add a bend in the right enterance of cargo. It is easy for marines to camp the end of that hallway. I haven't played that much nothing in 2.0. I never really had any problem with it anyway. Sure cargo was a big place to hold, but any coordinated alien team could stop them from coming in seeing as there were multiple places to jump down on marines from along the way there. I still gotta say the hallways outside of powersilo are too strait and easy to camp as a marine.

DarkATi · September 2003

Eclipse - The 2nd best map for NS E-V-E-R, you have made my life complete! ^_^ (No Changes) But I do vote for the return of the Comp Core water I guess. It did look pretty cool.

Veil - Jim dandy! I like the fact that the Marines can siege Double Node, the Aliens almost always get the double node spot, because they expand faster, 25 res for each alien means every one can drop a node in the beginning of the game! I mean come on, the Aliens have a pre-built "armory" and "Infantry Portal" Not to mention a Comm Chair (any alien can go gorge, A.K.A. comm.)

Basically, Aliens have the advantage in every map, they almost always take Topo and Skylights for some reason that I can't put my finger on and they have Oni which is stronger than a Heavy Armored Marine. 100 | 290 VS. 500| 150 Or soemthing like that. (I don't dooo numbers) Keep those Blue Siege rooms, it's a fabulous tactic/game gimmick IMO.

^^ Didn't mean to make that a "aliens are too strong" rant, ha ha.

Nothing... nothing, nothing, nothing, you know how I said Eclipse is my 2nd fav map? This is my FAV map! However, Silo does need some work,.a vent leading INTO the hive area as well as shorter hallways or something like that... hmmm.. dunno. But Pistol Campers outside Silo are a Pain in the Ace.

Other than that, oh yeah, teh b3st 7337 m4p 3v3r$!

~ DarkATi

Thaldarin · September 2003

Eclipse : Maintanence is the only thing letting the map down a bit.
Veil : I remember seeing some really cool screenshots when it first started out, my favourite one was just outside the marine spawn which was a U-Turn with pipes along the wall, and pipes on a lower level to one side, consider putting that back in?
Nothing : You've done a good job of maintaining it KFS, I hope it won't need changing again.

Olmy · September 2003

Eclipse - I miss the old maintenance also. I would love it to come back, seeing as it was my favourite hive in 1.04 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>. A non gameplay issue is the eclipse ready room. Why did you remove the original and use part of computer core? The original ready room looked great, which i also would like to see return.

Veil - Nice map but i think theres too many corridors, and not enough variation. I know that's really vague but theres no good way to explain it <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>.

Don't change nothing <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> ns_nothing that is <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'>

oOTOo · September 2003

Nothing -- great map and i appreciated every changes you made on it. Others already told about elevators' bugs and low-speed. I would like to speak about the footbridge in generator : a skulk can easily go here, then go gorg and bilbebomb the marines stuff without any chance to be killed by any weapon excepted Grenade Launcher.. Thats pretty unfair. About Silo and the fact marines can easily control its long access hallways, i don't agree with others cause at the moment a skulk success to reach the silo heights, he goes lerk or gorg and its over for the marines here : so the balance is between silo heights (aliens friendly) & hallways lenght (marines friendly).

Eclipse -- I love this map. The same as for Nothing, i appreciate all the changes you made on it. With few exceptions : the new lighting in Keyhole, i agree with this other guy who underlined it, is ugly. I don't care the water in CC be back , especially when water means water sound means easy to localize you --> more difficult to surprise a marines visiting this place. The marines base vent is much to easy for a lerk to spore the other side of the room and then to escape and come back and escape etc..

Veil -- I don't "feel" it and so never play it. Sorry. It looks like much too Eclipse (textures)

ssjyoda · September 2003

Only thing I wana say is bout veil. As onos, i get stuck a lot, on the stairs. By marine start, going into those 2 lil blue rooms, and other stairs. Only thing that kills me as onos in that map is the damn ceilings!

Lt_Gravity · September 2003

eclipse: the choice to change the lights appearance was not too good. I like the old light style better. the maintenance hive... uh! and I miss the doors from cc to ec. always was kinda jeopardy. "shall we go?" - "dunno." - "ok, lets go!" *door opens* "FU...!" *2 marines killed by offense chamber*
veil is a really cool map although the double res is little bit too much. the worst thing: onos have to crouch in the doorways. this is not too bad but...
once we had a match with relocate to the doubleres. when onos started to beat the **** out of us, the commander simply dropped a command console in one of the doorways a onos just was crouching through. OUCH! one more killed alien for the good side.
and its really great how you create this maps with so few textures. me needs 10 times as much... and even then it looks like **** ^^

343_guilty_spark · September 2003

Eclipse: My favorite map, basically the influence of the map i'm creating, Water back at Computer core would be nice, plus the railings at marine start are a pain for skulks as they can't walk of them so usually in a rush we have to take the stairs or ceiling if we could get up there. The vent by triad should be a bit more obvious for aliens, the entrance to the vent at marine start is a pain to get into as a skulk. Maintence is a bit too open for aliens also aswell. Plus vents to dark.

Veil: Second or first favorite map next to eclipse, the seige from marine start to double res is a pain, plus as mentioned before, pipeline is to open, leave the easter egg in though but make it more visible as i can only see the bunnys face and arm. Not much to complain about in my POV, it's pretty much perfect.

CoolCookieCooks · September 2003

for veil, as noted before:

fix the siege from rine start thing out, prolly by removing those two blue rooms, just extend the vents out further, and maybe make soem of the stairways taller so onos can get up em.

Majin · September 2003

Nothing: Power silo needs a vent, would make a lock down less effective for marines.
Viel: The hive that is on the far left side of the map © where the overlook res node is always seems to fall very quickly. That hallway that leads from the stairs to the overlook is too open and allows a HA train to walk right into the overlook and then the hive. Add break in the hall or something.
Eclipse: marine start vent is a pain due to lerks being able to spore across with no real danger, don't remove it, just relocate it. Maint, I miss the old one. and the water in CC.

KFS these are my 3 favorite maps in NS! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Epidemic · September 2003

I disagree with the above comment about the MS vent. Just whip out that pistol, boy (not to mention it's semi hard for the lerk to get back into the vent, never had any troubles about any lerk in any games I've played in <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> )

KungFuSquirrel · September 2003

Some good info here, guys. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> A few thoughts:

I'm 99% sure I can fix the elevator issues on Nothing and prevent them from being shut down while in use. I'll have a look at it. Power Silo is a little trickier, but it seems to be a generally accepted issue. I'll have a look at it.

I have a few ideas for Veil as well. Marine Spawn should be easy enough to work with, and I'm thinking I may open up the main level just a hair more than it is currently. I'll probably just get rid of monitoring pods - the idea behind them was to allow me to have 2 vents into MS without making alien assaults too rampant. What I'll probably do is then merge the two vents into one somewhere behind the MS and bring that on the side opposite the nozzle. Pipeline hive was one of the last parts of the map I finished and was a little more rushed than I'd have liked. I'll try to do some visual improvements to general areas in Veil, but again it's a time thing.

I'll have to scrounge around my old rmfs to make sure I still have the version of Eclipse with the old version of Maintenance... old enough that it still had wall_black texturing and wasn't actually a hive... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> I'll have to dig up an old screen of that if I can find it.

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why did you remove the original and use part of computer core?</td></tr></table>

I absolutely hated the old one and didn't feel it was at all representative of the map. The idea behind using Comp Core was to give some attachment to the map itself in a little before/after way. I like how it turned out, to be honest. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> It looks like much too Eclipse (textures) </td></tr></table>

I will destroy you. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

I'll be in touch with Flay about the next client update timeframe and see what's possible. With me scrambling on co_sepulcher, I may have to settle for just one or two small updates at this point, but we'll see what happens.

UKchaos · September 2003

eclipse - SAA and Power Sub nodes feel too close to each other. If you crawl into SAA vent as a marine, you cant get out. I dont really like the vent from Horse to MS, its only really useful for anoying the marines with spores.

veil - Paracite can open the welded MS vents. At least 6 chambers can be crammed into the vent at skylight (on the grates), makes it too easy to take down the node as alien.

nothing - The balcony railings in generator need to be shoot-throughable. I dont like the ladder in Miasma, prehaps some steps/ramp instead? The siege spots in silo need to be developed. The elevators are frustratingly slow.

Time To Collect Some Information...

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