Evolution
p4Samwise
Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10831Members
Join Date: 2002-12-15 Member: 10831Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Creation of new species</div> All right Marine, let's go. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I'm gonna define the scope of this discussion right here. Anyone straying too far will be shot.
We're discussing whether:
1) It's possible for one species to diverge into two, over a long period of time, through mutation and natural selection.
2) Mutation can introduce novel traits into a species.
We are NOT discussing the existence of God, or the creation of life on Earth. We're simply discussing evolution of existing life. Deal? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll start by again defending the intelligence and free will of my <a href='http://www.leadtogold.com/software/genesaver/index2.html' target='_blank'>Genesaver</a> critters. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> They only know to look for food because they've evolved that trait over time. When you first start the program up, odds are that none of the creatures will actively chase food. Random chance MIGHT produce one creature out of 300 that exhibits something resembling intelligent behavior, but the odds are way against it - you're just as likely to get a creature that runs away from food instead. The most likely behavior is more or less random movement. Over time, though, synaptic connections mutate, and eventually a combination of mutations arises that provides an advantage over other creatures, and presto, you have evolution. Download it. Try it. Tell me it isn't a miracle that runs while your computer is idle. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And then.... oh yeah, doggies. Sadly, I don't know enough about dog genetics to make comparisons with wolves and jackals, so I'll use horses and donkeys, since we already know about mules. Horses and donkeys have the same number of chromosomes, right? So they're able to mate and produce healthy offspring. However, the genetic information on their chromosomes is sufficiently different that the resulting offspring is sterile. This is what differentiates horses and donkeys as distinct species.
Okay. So horses and donkeys have the same amount of genetic information, but it's <i>different</i>. Logically, then, if you took a horse and flipped its genes around enough, you could end up with a donkey, without having to <i>add or subtract</i> any genetic information.
I propose that horses and donkeys in fact have a relatively close common ancestor, which evolved along two distinct paths until the two paths were no longer sufficiently genetically compatible to produce fertile offspring. The ancestor is recent enough that the basic genetic makeup is the same (and the two species are very similar in many ways), and they can still reproduce, but distant enough that they've drifted too far to produce fertile offspring.
Tell me what part of this sounds outlandish. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
We're discussing whether:
1) It's possible for one species to diverge into two, over a long period of time, through mutation and natural selection.
2) Mutation can introduce novel traits into a species.
We are NOT discussing the existence of God, or the creation of life on Earth. We're simply discussing evolution of existing life. Deal? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll start by again defending the intelligence and free will of my <a href='http://www.leadtogold.com/software/genesaver/index2.html' target='_blank'>Genesaver</a> critters. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> They only know to look for food because they've evolved that trait over time. When you first start the program up, odds are that none of the creatures will actively chase food. Random chance MIGHT produce one creature out of 300 that exhibits something resembling intelligent behavior, but the odds are way against it - you're just as likely to get a creature that runs away from food instead. The most likely behavior is more or less random movement. Over time, though, synaptic connections mutate, and eventually a combination of mutations arises that provides an advantage over other creatures, and presto, you have evolution. Download it. Try it. Tell me it isn't a miracle that runs while your computer is idle. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And then.... oh yeah, doggies. Sadly, I don't know enough about dog genetics to make comparisons with wolves and jackals, so I'll use horses and donkeys, since we already know about mules. Horses and donkeys have the same number of chromosomes, right? So they're able to mate and produce healthy offspring. However, the genetic information on their chromosomes is sufficiently different that the resulting offspring is sterile. This is what differentiates horses and donkeys as distinct species.
Okay. So horses and donkeys have the same amount of genetic information, but it's <i>different</i>. Logically, then, if you took a horse and flipped its genes around enough, you could end up with a donkey, without having to <i>add or subtract</i> any genetic information.
I propose that horses and donkeys in fact have a relatively close common ancestor, which evolved along two distinct paths until the two paths were no longer sufficiently genetically compatible to produce fertile offspring. The ancestor is recent enough that the basic genetic makeup is the same (and the two species are very similar in many ways), and they can still reproduce, but distant enough that they've drifted too far to produce fertile offspring.
Tell me what part of this sounds outlandish. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
I'm on your side, Commie, but you have to substantiate that with something or you're no more logical than a Bible-thumper with blinders on. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
We're discussing whether:
1) It's possible for one species to diverge into two, over a long period of time, through mutation and natural selection.
2) Mutation can introduce novel traits into a species.
We are NOT discussing the existence of God, or the creation of life on Earth. We're simply discussing evolution of existing life. Deal? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'll start by again defending the intelligence and free will of my <a href='http://www.leadtogold.com/software/genesaver/index2.html' target='_blank'>Genesaver</a> critters. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> They only know to look for food because they've evolved that trait over time. When you first start the program up, odds are that none of the creatures will actively chase food. Random chance MIGHT produce one creature out of 300 that exhibits something resembling intelligent behavior, but the odds are way against it - you're just as likely to get a creature that runs away from food instead. The most likely behavior is more or less random movement. Over time, though, synaptic connections mutate, and eventually a combination of mutations arises that provides an advantage over other creatures, and presto, you have evolution. Download it. Try it. Tell me it isn't a miracle that runs while your computer is idle. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And then.... oh yeah, doggies. Sadly, I don't know enough about dog genetics to make comparisons with wolves and jackals, so I'll use horses and donkeys, since we already know about mules. Horses and donkeys have the same number of chromosomes, right? So they're able to mate and produce healthy offspring. However, the genetic information on their chromosomes is sufficiently different that the resulting offspring is sterile. This is what differentiates horses and donkeys as distinct species.
Okay. So horses and donkeys have the same amount of genetic information, but it's <i>different</i>. Logically, then, if you took a horse and flipped its genes around enough, you could end up with a donkey, without having to <i>add or subtract</i> any genetic information.
I propose that horses and donkeys in fact have a relatively close common ancestor, which evolved along two distinct paths until the two paths were no longer sufficiently genetically compatible to produce fertile offspring. The ancestor is recent enough that the basic genetic makeup is the same (and the two species are very similar in many ways), and they can still reproduce, but distant enough that they've drifted too far to produce fertile offspring.
Tell me what part of this sounds outlandish. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yay, I get to be the first to pwn you Samwise <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> just kidding.
1) It's possible for one species to diverge into two:
Perhaps, however I should think that it would take a very long time, and diverging species don't seem to split up rapidly enough to explain the sheer diversity of species present in the modern world.
2) I'm not so sure about this one. It may introduce novel traits; however if you have ever actually looked at the physics involved in a folding protein (many of which are very different chemically yet have similar structures and functions), I would be amazed that any sort of reproductive trait could *ever* lead to a divergent species.
Perhaps, however I should think that it would take a very long time, and diverging species don't seem to split up rapidly enough to explain the sheer diversity of species present in the modern world.
2) I'm not so sure about this one. It may introduce novel traits; however if you have ever actually looked at the physics involved in a folding protein (many of which are very different chemically yet have similar structures and functions), I would be amazed that any sort of reproductive trait could *ever* lead to a divergent species. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Cool! We agree on both points, then - you've at least conceded that it's possible.
Given sufficient time, if it's possible, it WILL happen. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
I have. There are also zonkeys (zebra/donkey mix).
[edit - This is of course getting a little off topic now, but I feel it's relevant insofar as this is WHY we aren't debating the existence of God in here - you can believe in God and you can even believe in a divine plan without having to discount the evolution of species.]
I want everyone... EVERYONE to obey this. This is too bloody good to throw away to the trolls. Have problems with this? Go, away.
For sure, i think evolution happens every day. Polydactyl cats have a extra digit on their apendages, and the thought is that they can grasp and hold onto things better; thus better mousers. And where do all these polydactyl cats live?
Thats right, Harbours. Fisheries. Boat docks. The placeses where mice thrive, and sailors want the rodents under control, so they make sure the polydactyl cats live, which is why there are so many of them in coastal towns. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> There's even a story of these cats being able to hold onto someone's finger, or picking up something and running off with it... <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> (really, no joke! no lies!) and i can see where that can come in handly. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
of course when evolution takes a step back you get extinctions. evolution takes time; and lots of it. the dodo is one example; living on a island with no predators made them evolve to lose flight (no need to fly away), and they became land-living birds. humans, to come along at a much later date, terminated their existance. if they had kept their ability to fly, they may still be in existance. they had no time to change to their new settings. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
[edit] PS: is the Genesaver screen saver 100% virus free? i want to try it. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> [/edit]
Anyone here ever read HG Welles (Wells?) The Time Machine? He put forward a very plausible divergence for humanity (Morlocks and Eloi).
With multicellular life, evolution is naturally grindingly slow, but with Bacteria, it can happen relatively fast, simply because of the diversity and simplicity of the nature of their life. I remember hearing somewhere that the staflycoccyl (?!)(Golden Staff I think) bacterium managed to swap resistance chromosones with some other bacterium (I forget) becoming resistant to some very very powerful anti biotics.
The way I see it, the more diverse life becomes the faster evolution goes. For billions of years bacteria simply writhed around in the primordial soup, until about 500 million years ago when they decided to start clumping together, cooperating and such and thus the advent of multicellular life. The past 500 million years have been the most "Active" time for life on the planet. 600 million years ago, there was no life on the land, no trees, nada. All life was stuck in the sea. Today we have jungles, plants, animals and the whole shebang.
Life diverges slowly, but accelarates with diversity.
Thats right, Harbours. Fisheries. Boat docks. The placeses where mice thrive, and sailors want the rodents under control, so they make sure the polydactyl cats live, which is why there are so many of them in coastal towns. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG OMG OMG! Do you have any news articles on this? My mom has a cat that we adopted from the street back when I lived there (he would yowl outside my window every night until after a month we gave up and adopted him). He had the extra digits. And yes, he can pick things up. I caught him snagging scraps out of the garbage one time. It's freaking IMPRESSIVE. Opposable and everything.
And get this - my mom lives not far from Hunter's Point. The docks. Also fomerly a dumping ground for the navy's chemical/radioactive waste, as it turns out. It sounds like a bad movie plot, but it's true. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And yes, my screensaver is virus free. If you don't believe me, download the source code, run through it with a fine toothed comb, and compile it yourself. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Thats right, Harbours. Fisheries. Boat docks. The placeses where mice thrive, and sailors want the rodents under control, so they make sure the polydactyl cats live, which is why there are so many of them in coastal towns. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
OMG OMG OMG! Do you have any news articles on this? My mom has a cat that we adopted from the street back when I lived there (he would yowl outside my window every night until after a month we gave up and adopted him). He had the extra digits. And yes, he can pick things up. I caught him snagging scraps out of the garbage one time. It's freaking IMPRESSIVE. Opposable and everything.
And get this - my mom lives not far from Hunter's Point. The docks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
*points and nods head "OH HELL YEAH HE KNOWS WHA' IM TALKIN' BOUT'!"*
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Also fomerly a dumping ground for the navy's chemical/radioactive waste, as it turns out. It sounds like a bad movie plot, but it's true. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
though radiation can cause some very odd things to occur in a cellular structure, there is more evidence that radiation does more harm than good. if just afew genes are removed or "cut" by radiation, which is a spare electron speeding away from the atom, the cell will either:
1- Self destruct.
2- Mutate and die.
3- Mutate and live. (usually as a cancerous growth <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> )
so, the cats that got near the radiation could possibly die before they reproduced, however, it could be possible that a single electron from a radiation burst on a radioactive substance hit the testical or ovary of one of those cats, which caused some 1 in 10000000 chance that this happened... but the cats are spread out too much and go back too far into history to say that "Yeah, this place MADE those things." some polydactyl cats were in Ancient Egypt, and i doubt they mined uranium. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Pfaugh! How else do you think the ancient Egyptians were able to power their pyramid-shaped spaceships?
I don't think that is fair. That's like creating a topic called "Creationism" and telling people they can't discuss evolution in it.
And Samwise, to answer your previous statement about red hair and the like, and the difference in appearances, this is the gene pool I am talking about. To a certain extent there is a genetic variance between every specie, although the gene pool <i>is limited</i>, this means that while we can have different colored hair, we're not going to grow a hand in the middle of our face because it is more convenient for me to eat, or because I've been placed in a certain environment.
And so far, there's a statement that has been so far proven to be true, order cannot come from chaos. The theory behind evolution falls into chaos, how do we have order from that ? Theoretically, it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen today.
Bosnian, I think he's just trying to keep any diety's out of the topic as it is likely to spin out of control.
it could either be that a random mutation in the blue parent's offspring make it green, or a part of coding to actually MAKE a green for no reason. it could be considered diverging into another species because all the green is usually extinct when this happens... either way, it is rather interesting to watch them go about their [short] lives.
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
Not true at all. Take crystals for example, or stars, or sand dunes, or countless other things.
edit. Sorry if I wasn't more specific earlier.
That coincides with the evolutionary theory that biodiversity spontaneously exploded in some ancient earth age (trias,perm or something) and nature spent the rest of the time killing off the unfit species.
I don't think that is fair. That's like creating a topic called "Creationism" and telling people they can't discuss evolution in it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's completely fair. We're debating the <i>scientific</i> merits of the theory of evolution. Religion need not enter into it. Read the rest of the thread if haven't already, and you'll understand why.
Glad you're enjoying it. I'm always pleased to know I've touched someone else's life in a small way. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
The emergence of children with colors (species, if you will, since only animals of the same color can mate with each other) differing from parents is a product of the fact that the color is determined by genes. Sometimes the difference in color is a product of sheer mutation, and sometimes it's actually due to crossover - each parent carried a number of genes for another color, but didn't exhibit them phenotypically because they were outnumbered - then there's a freak accident with the genetic crossover and the offspring manifests those previously-dormant traits. Fun, eh?
The color is the easiest part of it to wrap your head around. Now try to comprehend how all of this genetic chaos turns itself into an intelligently laid-out neural net in the course of an hour or so, and the mind just boggles. Natural selection is just a really efficient search algorithm over genetic space, when you get down to it. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Oh yeah, staying on topic...
One species generally can't fill two biological niches. Hence, divergence of species is NECESSARY if there's a niche to be filled.
It's evolution that leads to the niche being filled, not the other way around. The existence of a vacant niche simply creates an opportunity for an evolutionary leap, if you will - it means that there are now certain genetic combinations that have huge advantages over others, because they'll be exploiting a resource that has no competitors. Sooner or later, some lucky individual will hit that combination, and everything goes hog wild from there. Hence evolutionary spurts.
Those of you with Genesaver will observe this if one color ever gains dominance - the predator of that color suddenly has a huge available niche, and once that lucky mutation happens, HUGE spikes and valleys on that population graph. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
2) Mutation can introduce novel traits into a species<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Micro-evolution is possible, but the question that is still being raised is whether macro-evolution, the introduction of complete new taxonomic groups is correlated with micro-evolution at all, or that if the both are similiar or different.
Right now, there is no evidence of such a dramatic change in fossil records to explain that micro-evolution, in many small changes and mutations over long periods of times, could have created new taxonimic groups or "large-evolutionary changes."
"the origin of species -- Darwin's problem -- remains unsolved."
As of current, I heard that there is some evidence, but I do not know for sure if that is true.
In my opinion, I believe in micro-evolution, but macro-evolution, hmmm, I would have to see *good* evidence, which is very unlikely since the feathers on birds are in complete definition, extremely different than that of long reptile scales. As for another example: *cro-magnons,* our human ancestors, are highly different than that of our previous ape-human-like-thought-to-be ancestors, and the age gap is extremely large, which leads me to wonder how cro-magnons came to be through micro-evolution or some mysterious "leap."
P.S: I am no biology freak, my high school teacher brought up a discussion about evolution and so I thought I share with you guys.
Those of you with Genesaver will observe this if one color ever gains dominance - the predator of that color suddenly has a huge available niche, and once that lucky mutation happens, HUGE spikes and valleys on that population graph. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just a question, what algorithms do you use for your population tracking? Dips and bumps should exist, but spikes and valleys are not in accordance with observed natural cycles.
And I of course encourage you to read Michael Behe's book, "Darwin's Black Box". It raises very very serious issues about macro-evolution, which I can summarize as basically along the lines that evolutionary processes have always been treated as black boxes, with little regard to the actual systems which are alleged to be their products. Macro-evolution as I said, sounds reasonable and may actually happen, but it's so incredibly unlikely as to be nigh impossible. Consider, for example, the process of blood clotting(one of the examples he uses in the book). In many mammals, this process is enormously complex - involving the interactions of scores of proteins and hormones. It turns out that each of the proteins involved in the process is highly specialized in the way it checks and balances the other elements in the chain reaction that happens when one gets a cut and starts bleeding. Removing even a single one of those proteins would cause the whole system to collapse - it wouldn't work at all. This leads to the situation that the system could not have evolved naturally, because the system is irreduceably complex - you cannot backtrack from an irreduceably complex system into a simpler, similarly functional system, because the leap is too big.
Bear in mind the following, it's from memory, most likely exaggerated, and in all probability false.
The theory goes that DNA acts like a kind of quantum antenna, which communicates or resonates with similar DNA in other dimensions in the multiverse. Hence, although there are many species that never make it due to the checks and balances, there is sometimes a lucky one, which gets translated into the other dimensions.
I dont know if thats true or not and it isnt my theory (So no flaming me on it <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->) but there it is, it's on the table, now does someone have an ace up their sleeve to prove me wrong? <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->