Got Any Tips For Getting Around...

Machiavelli

<div class="IPBDescription">...the MAX_MAP_CLIPNODES problem?</div> I need help. I have been working on a map (ns_mines) in secret for the last 7 months, and now that it is done I have hit a compile problem. I have leak I can't find (and the point file wont work <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->, but I will get it eventually) but more importantly I have <i>Exceeded MAX_MAP_CLIPNODES</i>. Now, ns_mines is by far, not my first ever map. I have made maps for the last 1-2 years. However, ns_mines is my first map for natural selection, and also, by far the biggest map I have made. As such, this is my first time ever having the <i>MAX_MAP_CLIPNODES</i> problem. I have compiled with Merl's tools, and will later try a compile with XP-Cagey's tools if I am able to find the leak.

I know that the <i>MAX_MAP_CLIPNODES</i> is caused by having to much stuff in a level, but what I'm not 100% sure about are ways to lower the number of clip nodes in the level without redoing the level.
For example, will a box "3 X" in size have less clip nodes then a box "2 X" in size that has beams criss crossing on the roof? I have a link to a picture of these criss crossing beams that I used on many rooms in my level. If I got rid of these beams and embedded the lights into the roof, would that reduce clip nodes?

(link to beams pic, make sure to cut and past it, as clicking on it wont work:
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/fakemaps/ns_minespic.gif)' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/fakemaps/ns_minespic.gif)</a>

Also, if you guys want, here is a cut and past copy of the .log file:

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'><span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>hlcsg v2.5.3 rel Custom Build 1.7 (Dec 9 2002)
Zoner's Half-Life Compilation Tools -- Custom Build
Based on code modifications by Sean 'Zoner' Cavanaugh
Based on Valve's version, modified with permission.
Submit detailed bug reports to (merlinis@bigpond.net.au)
----- BEGIN hlcsg -----
Command line: C:\WorldCraft\hlcsg.exe c:\worldcraft\maps\ns_mines -hullfile c:\Sierra\Half-Life\NS\nshulls.txt
Loading hull definitions from 'c:\Sierra\Half-Life\NS\nshulls.txt'
Entering c:\worldcraft\maps\ns_mines.map

Current hlcsg Settings
Name | Setting | Default
---------------------|-----------|-------------------------
threads [ 1 ] [ Varies ]
verbose [ off ] [ off ]
log [ on ] [ on ]
developer [ 0 ] [ 0 ]
chart [ off ] [ off ]
estimate [ off ] [ off ]
max texture memory [ 4194304 ] [ 4194304 ]
priority [ Normal ] [ Normal ]

noclip [ off ] [ off ]
null texture stripping[ on ] [ on ]
clipnode economy mode [ on ] [ on ]
onlyents [ off ] [ off ]
wadtextures [ on ] [ on ]
skyclip [ on ] [ on ]
hullfile [ c:\Sierra\Half-Life\NS\nshulls.txt ] [ None ]
min surface area [ 0.500 ] [ 0.500 ]
brush union threshold [ 0.000 ] [ 0.000 ]

Using mapfile wad configuration
Wadinclude list :
[zhlt.wad]

63 brushes (totalling 422 sides) discarded from clipping hulls
CreateBrush:
(134.24 seconds)
SetModelCenters:
(0.00 seconds)
CSGBrush:
(18.79 seconds)

Using Wadfile: \sierra\half-life\valve\halflife.wad
- Contains 29 used textures, 28.43 percent of map (3116 textures in wad)
Using Wadfile: \sierra\half-life\ns\ns.wad
- Contains 73 used textures, 71.57 percent of map (578 textures in wad)

added 18 additional animating textures.
Texture usage is at 3.06 mb (of 4.00 mb MAX)
163.18 seconds elapsed [2m 43s]

----- END hlcsg -----



hlbsp v2.5.3 rel Custom Build 1.7 (Dec 9 2002)
Zoner's Half-Life Compilation Tools -- Custom Build
Based on code modifications by Sean 'Zoner' Cavanaugh
Based on Valve's version, modified with permission.
Submit detailed bug reports to (merlinis@bigpond.net.au)
----- BEGIN hlbsp -----
Command line: C:\WorldCraft\hlbsp.exe c:\worldcraft\maps\ns_mines

Current hlbsp Settings
Name | Setting | Default
-------------------|-----------|-------------------------
threads [ 1 ] [ Varies ]
verbose [ off ] [ off ]
log [ on ] [ on ]
developer [ 0 ] [ 0 ]
chart [ off ] [ off ]
estimate [ off ] [ off ]
max texture memory [ 4194304 ] [ 4194304 ]
priority [ Normal ] [ Normal ]

noclip [ off ] [ off ]
nofill [ off ] [ off ]
null tex. stripping [ on ] [ on ]
notjunc [ off ] [ off ]
subdivide size [ 240 ] [ 240 ] (Min 64) (Max 512)
max node size [ 1024 ] [ 1024 ] (Min 64) (Max 4096)


Warning: === LEAK in hull 0 ===
Entity target_mp3audio @ (-2608,-928,-1024)
Error:
A LEAK is a hole in the map, where the inside of it is exposed to the
(unwanted) outside region. The entity listed in the error is just a helpful
indication of where the beginning of the leak pointfile starts, so the
beginning of the line can be quickly found and traced to until reaching the
outside. Unless this entity is accidentally on the outside of the map, it
probably should not be deleted. Some complex rotating objects entities need
their origins outside the map. To deal with these, just enclose the origin
brush with a solid world brush

Leak pointfile generated

Error: Exceeded MAX_MAP_CLIPNODES
Description: The map has a problem which must be fixed
Howto Fix: Check the file ZHLTProblems.html for a detailed explanation of this problem


----- END hlbsp -----



hlvis v2.5.3 rel Custom Build 1.7 (Dec 9 2002)
Zoner's Half-Life Compilation Tools -- Custom Build
Based on code modifications by Sean 'Zoner' Cavanaugh
Based on Valve's version, modified with permission.
Submit detailed bug reports to (merlinis@bigpond.net.au)
----- BEGIN hlvis -----
Command line: C:\WorldCraft\hlvis.exe c:\worldcraft\maps\ns_mines
>> There was a problem compiling the map.
>> Check the file c:\worldcraft\maps\ns_mines.log for the cause.

----- END hlvis -----



hlrad v2.5.3 rel Custom Build 1.7 (Dec 9 2002)
Zoner's Half-Life Compilation Tools -- Custom Build
Based on code modifications by Sean 'Zoner' Cavanaugh
Based on Valve's version, modified with permission.
Submit detailed bug reports to (merlinis@bigpond.net.au)
----- BEGIN hlrad -----
Command line: C:\WorldCraft\hlrad.exe -extra -lights c:\Sierra\Half-Life\NS\nslight.rad -dscale 3 -bounce 1 c:\WORLDC~1\MAPS\NS_MINES
>> There was a problem compiling the map.
>> Check the file c:\WORLDC~1\MAPS\NS_MINES.log for the cause.

----- END hlrad -----</span></span>

I am thankful for any help you guys can give me. I will be even more thankful if I can get this map to Flayra in time for 2.1.

Spook

Wow, umm yeah...I can see how you blew your clip node count. Probably the easiest way to "fix" it is to put a func_seethrough (set transparent for everyone) just below the lights on the beams and hope that the tools trim out all of the clipnodes behind the func_seethrough. Bit of a cop-out, but I think it would work.

Choice two would be to move the beams one unit off the ceiling, and the lights one unit off the beams to help the BSP generation generate a more optimal set of clip nodes. This is the way to go if you want to keep the actual "topography" on your ceiling (for which, by the way, skulks will hate you eternally - they can't easily navigate a ceiling like that)

Hope something here helps.

Ollj

max map clipnodes is causes by the leak because the outside of your map gets clipnoded, too.
find your leek and clipnodes should be below max.

Clipnodes determine were you can walk as what lifeform and were not, with a leak you get it maxed quicky.
In general smaller, less complex rooms cause less clipnodes than huge or detailed rooms.
Pipes increase clipnodes relative to their roundness.
A round corridor or pipe you walk trough causes nearly as much clipnodes as a square hallway.
Func illusionarys cause no clipnodes, turning small solids into func_walls decreases clipnodes most times.
Filling dead ends of your map and Readyroom ceeling with CLIP brushes decreases clipnode count, done LOTS in ns_origin.
"-cliptype precise" or "-cliptype smallest" are CSG commands you should try with the xp-cagey compile tools.

now fix your leak.

Kage

<!--QuoteBegin--Ollj+Aug 26 2003, 04:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ollj @ Aug 26 2003, 04:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Func illusionarys cause no clipnodes, turning small solids into func_walls decreases clipnodes most times. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I think that func_wall generates just as many clipnodes- it is just as solid as a world brush, so why would the clipping be any different?

You can also enclose small details in a clip brush (this causes the embedded nodes to be nullified), and use a clip ramp over steps. If you do this, make the steps into a func_illusionary, and make sure that the clip brush prevents the steps from contacting the void.

XP-Cagey's tools have some really good optimizations for clipnodes, so definitely use them.

Machiavelli

So, the leak could be the cause of the error. I have had leaks before, but they never caused this error. However, like I said before, this is the biggest map I have made.

As a result it has been extremely hard for me to find my leak. I have tried selecting and hiding all of my brush entities (and looking manual for the leak near the marked entity). However, I can't seem to find it. Worse yet, I can't get the pointfile to work. When I load the point file into WorldCraft the line jumps around everywhere (half the time outside my level) and I can't seem to find the hole it points too. When ever I try to load the point file into half-life (by trying to change the level to ns_mines.bsp, then typing loadpointfile) it crashes.

This has been the first time I have really needed the point file, (as since I have normaly been able to find my leaks fairly fast.) so I'm not sure if i'm doing it right.

Kage

Try using the .lin file- it is like the .pts file except that the line is less "frayed". You can follow either of these files in the 3d view in hammer- at some point it will cross from the inside of the level to the void.

Machiavelli

Thank you, the .lin file is much easyer to follow. However, I can't seem to find the line in WorldCraft's 3d view. It may be that the line is too short (how do I make it longer?). Or it may be because I'm using an older version, 3.3 WorldCraft, instead of 3.4 Hammer.

I can't seem to get the point file to load in game, since it crashs when ever I try.

Ollj

its the latest hammer beta 3.5
more bugs but 3 features: pointfile and animated models in 3d view and slightly changed entity properties.

map - load pointfile

Machiavelli

Thanks Ollj, I was able to find (and fix) both the leaks because of 3.5.

However, sadly, the MAX_MAP_CLIPNODES error remains. I'm going to add a bit more clip brushs then try xp-cagey's compile tools. If that doesn't work, I'll add some clip brushs to the "bottemless" pits. It will still look the same that way, but falling down will be a bit odd.

edit/ I didn't want to double post, but I was wondering about a few things.
1-In a lot of places I moved world brushs 1 unit off the wall/floor/roof, would putting clip brushs in these 1 unit gaps lower clip nodes?
2-I know skulks can't climb clip nodes and sky brushs, but if a clip brush overlaps with a normal brush, will skulks still beable to climb the normal brush?