A phase gate with marines constantly reenforcing the position after they spawn is much better than sieging. And it costs a heck of a lot less!
If you get one thing out of this post... build phase gates and use them effectively! As posts have said before, recycle older phase gates that are of less use. There should always be a handy man marine on the team, equiped with a jetpack. He can fly to a point and build that phase gate, he can hit and run on res nodes, give him a welder and he can heal base locations and marines.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->A phase gate with marines constantly reenforcing the position after they spawn is much better than sieging. And it costs a heck of a lot less!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, suiciding men into WOLs is a great idea... because y'know OCs can't aim worth crap...
"If it was just a 35 res hive I don't believe a siege would've been necessary in the first place."
Zerg, again, you HAVE NOT READ THE POST. The marines are sieging a hive, according to Koenig. Koenig says he takes down their chambers and a hive. What you are quoting is my response - that they haven't "lost" the chambers since most alien players put up chambers at EVERY hive, so if one goes down they still have their chamber abilities. So the end result of a siege is that aliens lose a hive. Thats it. Marines build a 150 point siege base OUTSIDE a hive just to kill it, a 35 res investment.
"And now you assume the aliens will automatically take back their hive as soon as you leave it. Yes, that makes perfect sense because you know the commander doesn't care to send troops to a base under attack. Don't give me crap that if the comm sends troops there the aliens will attack elsewhere. The aliens can't be everywhere."
Yes, once a siege goes down, aliens WILL take back the hive. Thus, if you READ THE POST, you'll see I say you either let your siege base go down, and WASTE all the res in it, or you keep sending men to it over and over, which allows SOME aliens to run off and have fun on the rest of the map. It only takes one alien to build an OC nest, or to waddle about capping the RTs. While your team of 8 are jumping through the PG to weld the siege base, 6 aliens can keep counterrushing it, while 2 others can waddle around the map unhindered. Perhaps laming up the other hives. Perhaps rushing base. In an 8 player game, aliens can build at 8 places at once. Marines don't have that luxury. So yes, in comparison to marines, aliens CAN be everywhere.
"I don't think it matters WHO got there **** handed to them. My point still stands."
No, your point doesn't stand. You're not reading the posts, and your analysis of why they lost is flawed and has no relation to the FACTS.
"QUOTE Setting up a siege means they can counter siege. They can rush your siege. In some cases they rush your base, leaving you with the hard choice of the hive, or your base.
"And you do that same by splitting or moving your forces as necessary.""
So, you send 4 men to do something else, leaving 4 LA LMG to fend off a potential 6-8 aliens that are STILL fully upgraded. Second, you're still stuck at the siege. You can't abandon it. You either recycle, or build ANOTHER siege further along. End result? Marine res goes through the floor. How will your 4 men cope to an Onos? Bilebombs? Constant skulk runs? You can't leave the base, so do you recycle?
You can always send in HA troops..... but then that costs res to research and produce, res from towers which you are LOSING while you're camped at the siege. Meanwhile aliens are capping res, picking off the rest of the map because you can only afford to keep laming up your siege base. And then the redeem onos come charging in to the siege and smash the tf apart. HAs turn into headless chickens, and skulks rush in to nail the PG. Soon the redeem Onos train has killed all the HAs, the hive goes back up, and its endgame as the aliens push into base.
Your siege base becomes the crux of the marine game. Marines are crippled by it, because they can't afford to lose it. You set up a siege, aliens countersiege, you countercountersiege, and so on. Can't you see the common thread here? The siege has become the objective of the marine game. You are STILL spending res on it even after its outlived its usefulness.
"Now I know your ARE crazy. In all of NS, sieges have been used offensively in fact the reason why they have been nerfed so many times."
And perhaps why marines keep losing? You know if you're camped trying to hold an unholdable siege for 30 minutes, the aliens will just wash right over you. Lets not forget a siege base is just a mini endgame. Its just like a lamed up tf base. And all lamed up tf bases fall unless you begin to exploit like crazy.
Again, how do you expect to use sieges offensively? You run forward, and MAKE A BASE, then from that base you hope your siege turret will hit the hive. Do you spend your time running out of that base into the hive? NO. You sit in that base, with your welders and your turrets and pray that the aliens will get bored of rushing your TF looking for a blind spot. That is NOT an offensive strategy for marines. Its nothing more than distance turtling.
Sieges may make some profit from RFK, but strategically you shoot yourself in the foot. Its a big white elephant that barely pays for itself in res terms. If you want to win, you need to think about strategic gain, not "well the cost breaks even, so I must be winning".
PS
"Yes, suiciding men into WOLs is a great idea... because y'know OCs can't aim worth crap... "
Well if you're not too busy spending res on some massive white elephant, you could afford to hand out, gasp, HMG, GL, and shotties. Hell, even concerted LMG fire rips through WoLs.
Wait, phasing into a WOL? Why would you do such a thing!
You build the phase gate in a strategic attack position, not in front of a WOL...
Grab a good marine with a jetpack, fly 'em o a good position, drop a phase, and send in the marines...
It takes time to set up a siege location, and upgrading the factory itself takes a while. If a single skulk randomly comes across the outpost, he is gonna spam to his team "SIEGES, MARINES SIEGING (input location here), FAST, SIEGES!" Before you know it, the alien team will be on you like Micheal Jackson on children! And thats fast!
Phase is fast and sweet, and wont call as much attention as sieging.
Dont get me wrong, sieging is useful, but most of the time, a phase gate will do.[I]
<!--QuoteBegin--Necrosis+Aug 27 2003, 10:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ Aug 27 2003, 10:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "If it was just a 35 res hive I don't believe a siege would've been necessary in the first place."
Zerg, again, you HAVE NOT READ THE POST. The marines are sieging a hive, according to Koenig. Koenig says he takes down their chambers and a hive. What you are quoting is my response - that they haven't "lost" the chambers since most alien players put up chambers at EVERY hive, so if one goes down they still have their chamber abilities. So the end result of a siege is that aliens lose a hive. Thats it. Marines build a 150 point siege base OUTSIDE a hive just to kill it, a 35 res investment.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First of all, you are making worst case scenario for marines and best case scenario for aliens to support your case, Aliens may very well loose some chambers to a siege that they can't replace, I've seen it often enough to know it happens also a siege base does not NEED to be 150 res, in most cases less will do (note that i specified a range).
I NEVER assumed that you will kill all the chambers of a specific type, gorges can drop the required chambers once you start killing the hive, but OK, lets assume you put 3 of every chamber in every hive you control, wasting a crapload of res in the process; which could have gone into onos, fades, or lerks, what does that mean:
Hive one : 35 + 3 x Chambers + rt = 80 res. Hive two : 35 + 6 x Chambers + rt = 110 res. Hive three : 35 + 9 x Chambers + rt = 140 res.
Not to mention the hosts of OC, and that most hives has res so close by the siege can hit 2 (or in some cases even 3) nozzles if placed correctly. Which in itself can very well make it a sensible invenstment.
You assume that i need the entire team to hold a siege base? I've been doing this for a while and I've NEVER had to station my entire team there to hold of a coordinated rush. I might have to direct a support team there every once in a while, but normally, if i REALLY want a position held, i station two guards there to tell me if a buildup is in progress.
"First of all, you are making worst case scenario for marines and best case scenario for aliens to support your case"
It could be equally said that you're doing the opposite. You assume the aliens have only one set of chambers, that you'll successfully rush the hive, and hold the siege base after. The objective reader will come along, see both our posts, and derive something of the truth from them both.
"Aliens may very well loose some chambers to a siege that they can't replace, I've seen it often enough to know it happens also a siege base does not NEED to be 150 res, in most cases less will do (note that i specified a range)."
Nope, I've never lost a chamber I can't replace. Three def, three mc, three sens at each hive. Hell, I can get all three chambers and never make it to holding three hives. And I've only been playing since 2.0, so I'd imagine the EXPERIENCED players will be the same.
You specify a range, I specify the upper limit, because when the aliens keep rushing your siege, the cost will go up and up.
"I NEVER assumed that you will kill all the chambers of a specific type, gorges can drop the required chambers once you start killing the hive, but OK, lets assume you put 3 of every chamber in every hive you control, wasting a crapload of res in the process;"
Waste? As an alien, you learn the value of chambers. 30 res is not a waste, its a long term investment. It means one hive onos can have regen and celerity at max. They lose an ability, but thats easily corrected.
30 res of chambers is safer to protect than a new 35 res hive.
"which could have gone into onos, fades, or lerks, what does that mean:"
I'm a gorge player. I work for the team. I don't need to go onos, or fade, or lerk. I live long enough to drop stuff then its back to skulk.
Your res projections are flawed, in that they imply all the chambers are dropped at once.... I do not need to point out to you that all you have to do is keep 30 res spare and when a hive gets rushed, drop the chambers it's responsible for. Second, as an alien player, its worth every point.
"Not to mention the hosts of OC,"
Not even needed when MCs are up.
"most hives has res so close by the siege can hit 2 (or in some cases even 3) nozzles if placed correctly."
And the aliens just let that happen mm? No, they rush your new siege base, they mangle the siege, and while they continue pounding the TF/PG, the other gorges are putting the RT back up. Yes, I am speaking from experience.
"I've been doing this for a while and I've NEVER had to station my entire team there to hold of a coordinated rush."
Lets assume a team of 8. We'll remove a rambo, and yourself as comm. Thats 6 men. Three go to your PG, one dies, another takes damage, the third takes no hits but starts screaming about a rush. Your other three are en route to a waypoint. The next alien rush hits, another person dies, the last man bunnyhops like mad. The first rine spawns back in, runs to hump ammo. The third marine is dead, the first rine hops into the pg before you can stop him, and dies. The rambo has also killed himself, and the second rine is waiting to spawn in.
"I might have to direct a support team there every once in a while, but normally, if i REALLY want a position held, i station two guards there to tell me if a buildup is in progress."
Leaving 4 men, a commchair, and a rambo. And what use are two guards? Waste res on medspamming them? Give the skulks something to do before they sit on the PG? Please. And what happens when you hear a buildup is in progress? Send in the support team? So essentially your entire squad of men are parked at your "assault" siege base? All the better for the aliens rushing your (now devoid of marines) spawn.
And why are you holding a defensive position if you're assaulting? Because you're making a defensive siege, and having to hold it from a determined kharaa effort to crack it.
You are speaking from your experience, I am speaking from mine. I *know* that as gorge, I have redundant chambers everywhere, because I don't trust my time to reinforce a hive when its under attack. I'm not the only gorge who builds redundant chambers. I also know that I've been in games where even HA HMG sieges have been broken up with a handful of skulks, a gorge, and one onos. For my part, I have never seen a siege last to endgame UNLESS the aliens have lost both hives and spent the game as skulks hoarding for onos - and in that game the comm had enough res for 5 tfacs at each minibase.
The above is MY experience on pub servers, ranging from new players to good pub servers like Lunixmonster.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Zerg, again, you HAVE NOT READ THE POST. The marines are sieging a hive, according to Koenig. Koenig says he takes down their chambers and a hive. What you are quoting is my response - that they haven't "lost" the chambers since most alien players put up chambers at EVERY hive, so if one goes down they still have their chamber abilities. So the end result of a siege is that aliens lose a hive. Thats it. Marines build a 150 point siege base OUTSIDE a hive just to kill it, a 35 res investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it matters whether or not you lose all your upgrade chambers. There is still a chance that might happen though. It more about res lost for the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, once a siege goes down, aliens WILL take back the hive. Thus, if you READ THE POST, you'll see I say you either let your siege base go down, and WASTE all the res in it, or you keep sending men to it over and over, which allows SOME aliens to run off and have fun on the rest of the map. It only takes one alien to build an OC nest, or to waddle about capping the RTs. While your team of 8 are jumping through the PG to weld the siege base, 6 aliens can keep counterrushing it, while 2 others can waddle around the map unhindered. Perhaps laming up the other hives. Perhaps rushing base. In an 8 player game, aliens can build at 8 places at once. Marines don't have that luxury. So yes, in comparison to marines, aliens CAN be everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You didn't even address what I've said. If all the aliens are attacking you send an equal force. If there are aliens capping res or whatnot you send a different set of marines. Now I know you will respoind "but they will all just get killed." You know that works the other way around too?
If all aliens are building, you're free to counter-rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, your point doesn't stand. You're not reading the posts, and your analysis of why they lost is flawed and has no relation to the FACTS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Facts? All you're telling me is "they will get owned" and "they will get owned." It works both ways too. There is no relation to whether the siege had anything to do with it or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And perhaps why marines keep losing? You know if you're camped trying to hold an unholdable siege for 30 minutes, the aliens will just wash right over you. Lets not forget a siege base is just a mini endgame. Its just like a lamed up tf base. And all lamed up tf bases fall unless you begin to exploit like crazy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Same old respond from you. "They will get owned" bla bla bla
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Again, how do you expect to use sieges offensively? You run forward, and MAKE A BASE, then from that base you hope your siege turret will hit the hive. Do you spend your time running out of that base into the hive? NO. You sit in that base, with your welders and your turrets and pray that the aliens will get bored of rushing your TF looking for a blind spot. That is NOT an offensive strategy for marines. Its nothing more than distance turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um ok.. Ever heard of offensive towering? Its a common RTS strategy.
I'm done arguing with you dude. You're just giving me "they will get owned" everytime. It doesn't matter to me if you can't grasp the pros and cons of a seige. You can tell your stories of owning siege attempts to Koenig. Bye! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I read this whole post... and i want that 5 minutes of my life back <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
"I don't think it matters whether or not you lose all your upgrade chambers. There is still a chance that might happen though. It more about res lost for the aliens."
So first you ignore them mention of chambers, and now it doesn't matter if they're there or not. It's about res lost for aliens? How is the rest lost? Its been spent! The chambers are all up. They've "lost" no res at all. Losing res is doing something like dropping 14 turrets, a tfac and pg only to lose it all for no longterm gain.
"You didn't even address what I've said."
If you reread, you'll note I did.
"If all the aliens are attacking you send an equal force."
They send 2 onos. Or a lerk and 3-4 skulks. Thats not their full team, but assuming competent aliens you WILL need virtually your whole team to stop them. Or do you regularly see one rambo take out 4 skulks and a sporehappy adren lerk?
"If there are aliens capping res or whatnot you send a different set of marines."
The aliens send an Onos, and a gorge. You send how many marines? The aliens can run roughshod. Again, the aliens adapt so quickly that even ONE alien can be a match for half your team, which means if you're hugging the Siege base then you simply can't afford to send your men elsewhere.
"If all aliens are building, you're free to counter-rush."
And they can bounce right back. All they need to do is run to an RT, gorge, and bile it. Or spam rush it as skulk before gorging and capping. 5 aliens can cap 5 res very quickly. Could you say the same for marines? Aliens will always be winning the res game, and can leave things half built and be safe in the knowledge that they'll build themselves. Counter rush? More like "get back to the siege base and weld everything before the Onos comes back".
"Facts? All you're telling me is "they will get owned" and "they will get owned." It works both ways too. There is no relation to whether the siege had anything to do with it or not. "
No, I am telling you that hugging a siege base and spending res to keep it up while diverting men to it for constant welding WILL lose you the game. I've illustrated how it happens, and it certainly doesnt work both ways because one alien can tie up more than one marine.
"Same old respond from you. "They will get owned" bla bla bla"
If you READ it, it says rewelding and fighting over a siege for 30 minutes will lose you the game. Not "you will get owned". You've a pretty poor attitude and at the end of the day I'm trying to help marines from doing silly things, like taking UNHOLDABLE POSITIONS.
"Um ok.. Ever heard of offensive towering? Its a common RTS strategy."
A tfac crawl?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Thats great if you're playing Starcraft or another game where you can build quickly, but its not the case in NS. Offensive towering in other games means walling them into their base. Draining them of resources. NS has three hives. You're tfacing ONE alone and fighting over it for half an hour. You're hard pressed to hold one on ONE side of a hive, let alone 6 covering both exits from all three hives.
Second, if you know anything about offensive towering, you'll know that when your tower crawl is STALLED by the enemy, you need to pull back. Usually its by building siege weaponry - in the case of NS its aliens spamming up chambers and lerks sporing so that you can't build any further. All they have to worry about is knocking down your siege turrets, and then after 20 minutes they own the rest of the map from their OTHER hives and you're STILL trying to futilely lockdown one hive, on one side, with 2 RTs if you're lucky.
Siege bases are totally unfeasible against any competent team. Marines can't afford to camp - they need to keep on the move. You take down the hive, you put stuff up INSIDE the hive room, you rush to the next hive. You don't sit for three hours fighting over ONE base thats not even IN a hive.
"I'm done arguing with you dude. You're just giving me "they will get owned" everytime. It doesn't matter to me if you can't grasp the pros and cons of a seige."
Nope, I've been pointing out where sieges go wrong, and how they can be used successfully. In short, you've paid no attention to the posts, which to me is just ignorant, impolite, and illustrates the reasons for the massive amount of marine losses against even the most incompetent alien team. Pitiful.
I do hope that other, more observant comms will get some insight into why they keep losing games over a siege. Whereas strategy "doesn't matter" to Zerg, it DOES matter to me that Comms keep improving their game, and that we try to help new comms from making the simplest of mistakes.
Any outpost without phase gates is bound to fall to constant attrition.
You may not realise this, but phase gates are absolutely ESSENTIAL in ensuring an effective hive lockdown. The time taken to press your +use key 4-5 times is insignificant to the time taken to walk the perilous journey between your base and the designated hive.
When it comes to phases and Sieges, I have a few ideas of how to implement them efectively(wheter it is sieging or not =)
1. Defence Hives, dualres and other keylocations(tramtunnel in bast anyone?) Makes it difficult or impossible for a skulk to cross or do any useful things with.
2. Sealing maps If you can take all three lifts in nothing you have sealed of 4 RTs and one hive add the areas directly below and you got 3 more RTs...
3. Killing Lamed areas/hives If this is the case, you use sieges to quickly kill defences. Compare to a catapult that kills castles but not a single peasant.
So, sieges are only a part of the much mor important Farm with Phase, allowing you to move forward, secure and reinforce. Used correctly, a Farm can deny a large area(see above) and if the aliens try to take it back they will need Chamber support, which is easily killed by sieges. Downpart is that you get way less res to uppgrade and buy weapons with. Its all about prioritating(or choosing a good team)
<!--QuoteBegin--FCC+Aug 22 2003, 01:20 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (FCC @ Aug 22 2003, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Too many phases means the marines must constantly press "use" on the phase gate to get to their destined location. Nothing annoys me more than having to go through five different locations before I get to my desired location.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Voogru server. You can pick which place you wanna phase to. Press e and a little menu comes up at teh left hand side
"Siege" has historically meant to starve off an opponent, not to attack. It is synonymous with "blockade".
"Siege" cannons in NS are different - they are weapons and they attack. Yes, they kill structures and res to weaken the enemies 'supply lines' but it is not the same as a historic seige. If anything, a turret farm guarding a res node is more of a 'siege' in what it denies the aliens.
Despite all that, most people equate "siege" with an <b>attack</b> on a castle. Yes, an attack may happen, but that usually wasn't the point. You would wait out your enemy, thumbing your nose at him, until he got hungry, sick, and surrendered. Then you could claim his land and his castle as your own. If you attack it, you'll defeat your foe, but you'll eventually have to rebuild what you broke down.
phasegates are awesome, imo. But having more than 3 is indeed a big burden. You need those troops here now, not phasing through 5 different locations, sometimes repeatedly =/. Secondly, sieges. Sieges are good, and do put you on the defensive, but I usually I only siege for heavily OCed hives, where a marine team can't make it in. Being on the defensive makes the aliens coordinate a large attack against your position. The biggest disadvantage imo to siege is that it takes TIME. Once that first skulk is killed, they KNOW where you are, and can coordinate a massive assault to destroy that upgrading TF (including fades, onos, lurks to gas the heck out of your lights). It's much faster to send in that marine team, or to drop a phase gate only and then send your marine team in. I usually only siege heavily OCed hives, or if there is a easily defendable "siege room" nearby (U-turn on mineshaft, long cooridors, aliens need to use ladders to escape.)
Comments
A phase gate with marines constantly reenforcing the position after they spawn is much better than sieging. And it costs a heck of a lot less!
If you get one thing out of this post... build phase gates and use them effectively! As posts have said before, recycle older phase gates that are of less use. There should always be a handy man marine on the team, equiped with a jetpack. He can fly to a point and build that phase gate, he can hit and run on res nodes, give him a welder and he can heal base locations and marines.
Yes, suiciding men into WOLs is a great idea... because y'know OCs can't aim worth crap...
Zerg, again, you HAVE NOT READ THE POST. The marines are sieging a hive, according to Koenig. Koenig says he takes down their chambers and a hive. What you are quoting is my response - that they haven't "lost" the chambers since most alien players put up chambers at EVERY hive, so if one goes down they still have their chamber abilities. So the end result of a siege is that aliens lose a hive. Thats it. Marines build a 150 point siege base OUTSIDE a hive just to kill it, a 35 res investment.
"And now you assume the aliens will automatically take back their hive as soon as you leave it. Yes, that makes perfect sense because you know the commander doesn't care to send troops to a base under attack. Don't give me crap that if the comm sends troops there the aliens will attack elsewhere. The aliens can't be everywhere."
Yes, once a siege goes down, aliens WILL take back the hive. Thus, if you READ THE POST, you'll see I say you either let your siege base go down, and WASTE all the res in it, or you keep sending men to it over and over, which allows SOME aliens to run off and have fun on the rest of the map. It only takes one alien to build an OC nest, or to waddle about capping the RTs. While your team of 8 are jumping through the PG to weld the siege base, 6 aliens can keep counterrushing it, while 2 others can waddle around the map unhindered. Perhaps laming up the other hives. Perhaps rushing base. In an 8 player game, aliens can build at 8 places at once. Marines don't have that luxury. So yes, in comparison to marines, aliens CAN be everywhere.
"I don't think it matters WHO got there **** handed to them. My point still stands."
No, your point doesn't stand. You're not reading the posts, and your analysis of why they lost is flawed and has no relation to the FACTS.
"QUOTE
Setting up a siege means they can counter siege. They can rush your siege. In some cases they rush your base, leaving you with the hard choice of the hive, or your base.
"And you do that same by splitting or moving your forces as necessary.""
So, you send 4 men to do something else, leaving 4 LA LMG to fend off a potential 6-8 aliens that are STILL fully upgraded. Second, you're still stuck at the siege. You can't abandon it. You either recycle, or build ANOTHER siege further along. End result? Marine res goes through the floor. How will your 4 men cope to an Onos? Bilebombs? Constant skulk runs? You can't leave the base, so do you recycle?
You can always send in HA troops..... but then that costs res to research and produce, res from towers which you are LOSING while you're camped at the siege. Meanwhile aliens are capping res, picking off the rest of the map because you can only afford to keep laming up your siege base. And then the redeem onos come charging in to the siege and smash the tf apart. HAs turn into headless chickens, and skulks rush in to nail the PG. Soon the redeem Onos train has killed all the HAs, the hive goes back up, and its endgame as the aliens push into base.
Your siege base becomes the crux of the marine game. Marines are crippled by it, because they can't afford to lose it. You set up a siege, aliens countersiege, you countercountersiege, and so on. Can't you see the common thread here? The siege has become the objective of the marine game. You are STILL spending res on it even after its outlived its usefulness.
"Now I know your ARE crazy. In all of NS, sieges have been used offensively in fact the reason why they have been nerfed so many times."
And perhaps why marines keep losing? You know if you're camped trying to hold an unholdable siege for 30 minutes, the aliens will just wash right over you. Lets not forget a siege base is just a mini endgame. Its just like a lamed up tf base. And all lamed up tf bases fall unless you begin to exploit like crazy.
Again, how do you expect to use sieges offensively? You run forward, and MAKE A BASE, then from that base you hope your siege turret will hit the hive. Do you spend your time running out of that base into the hive? NO. You sit in that base, with your welders and your turrets and pray that the aliens will get bored of rushing your TF looking for a blind spot. That is NOT an offensive strategy for marines. Its nothing more than distance turtling.
Sieges may make some profit from RFK, but strategically you shoot yourself in the foot. Its a big white elephant that barely pays for itself in res terms. If you want to win, you need to think about strategic gain, not "well the cost breaks even, so I must be winning".
PS
"Yes, suiciding men into WOLs is a great idea... because y'know OCs can't aim worth crap... "
Well if you're not too busy spending res on some massive white elephant, you could afford to hand out, gasp, HMG, GL, and shotties. Hell, even concerted LMG fire rips through WoLs.
You build the phase gate in a strategic attack position, not in front of a WOL...
Grab a good marine with a jetpack, fly 'em o a good position, drop a phase, and send in the marines...
It takes time to set up a siege location, and upgrading the factory itself takes a while. If a single skulk randomly comes across the outpost, he is gonna spam to his team "SIEGES, MARINES SIEGING (input location here), FAST, SIEGES!" Before you know it, the alien team will be on you like Micheal Jackson on children! And thats fast!
Phase is fast and sweet, and wont call as much attention as sieging.
Dont get me wrong, sieging is useful, but most of the time, a phase gate will do.[I]
Zerg, again, you HAVE NOT READ THE POST. The marines are sieging a hive, according to Koenig. Koenig says he takes down their chambers and a hive. What you are quoting is my response - that they haven't "lost" the chambers since most alien players put up chambers at EVERY hive, so if one goes down they still have their chamber abilities. So the end result of a siege is that aliens lose a hive. Thats it. Marines build a 150 point siege base OUTSIDE a hive just to kill it, a 35 res investment.
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First of all, you are making worst case scenario for marines and best case scenario for aliens to support your case, Aliens may very well loose some chambers to a siege that they can't replace, I've seen it often enough to know it happens also a siege base does not NEED to be 150 res, in most cases less will do (note that i specified a range).
I NEVER assumed that you will kill all the chambers of a specific type, gorges can drop the required chambers once you start killing the hive, but OK, lets assume you put 3 of every chamber in every hive you control, wasting a crapload of res in the process; which could have gone into onos, fades, or lerks, what does that mean:
Hive one : 35 + 3 x Chambers + rt = 80 res.
Hive two : 35 + 6 x Chambers + rt = 110 res.
Hive three : 35 + 9 x Chambers + rt = 140 res.
Not to mention the hosts of OC, and that most hives has res so close by the siege can hit 2 (or in some cases even 3) nozzles if placed correctly. Which in itself can very well make it a sensible invenstment.
You assume that i need the entire team to hold a siege base?
I've been doing this for a while and I've NEVER had to station my entire team there to hold of a coordinated rush. I might have to direct a support team there every once in a while, but normally, if i REALLY want a position held, i station two guards there to tell me if a buildup is in progress.
It could be equally said that you're doing the opposite. You assume the aliens have only one set of chambers, that you'll successfully rush the hive, and hold the siege base after. The objective reader will come along, see both our posts, and derive something of the truth from them both.
"Aliens may very well loose some chambers to a siege that they can't replace, I've seen it often enough to know it happens also a siege base does not NEED to be 150 res, in most cases less will do (note that i specified a range)."
Nope, I've never lost a chamber I can't replace. Three def, three mc, three sens at each hive. Hell, I can get all three chambers and never make it to holding three hives. And I've only been playing since 2.0, so I'd imagine the EXPERIENCED players will be the same.
You specify a range, I specify the upper limit, because when the aliens keep rushing your siege, the cost will go up and up.
"I NEVER assumed that you will kill all the chambers of a specific type, gorges can drop the required chambers once you start killing the hive, but OK, lets assume you put 3 of every chamber in every hive you control, wasting a crapload of res in the process;"
Waste? As an alien, you learn the value of chambers. 30 res is not a waste, its a long term investment. It means one hive onos can have regen and celerity at max. They lose an ability, but thats easily corrected.
30 res of chambers is safer to protect than a new 35 res hive.
"which could have gone into onos, fades, or lerks, what does that mean:"
I'm a gorge player. I work for the team. I don't need to go onos, or fade, or lerk. I live long enough to drop stuff then its back to skulk.
Your res projections are flawed, in that they imply all the chambers are dropped at once.... I do not need to point out to you that all you have to do is keep 30 res spare and when a hive gets rushed, drop the chambers it's responsible for. Second, as an alien player, its worth every point.
"Not to mention the hosts of OC,"
Not even needed when MCs are up.
"most hives has res so close by the siege can hit 2 (or in some cases even 3) nozzles if placed correctly."
And the aliens just let that happen mm? No, they rush your new siege base, they mangle the siege, and while they continue pounding the TF/PG, the other gorges are putting the RT back up. Yes, I am speaking from experience.
"I've been doing this for a while and I've NEVER had to station my entire team there to hold of a coordinated rush."
Lets assume a team of 8. We'll remove a rambo, and yourself as comm. Thats 6 men. Three go to your PG, one dies, another takes damage, the third takes no hits but starts screaming about a rush. Your other three are en route to a waypoint. The next alien rush hits, another person dies, the last man bunnyhops like mad. The first rine spawns back in, runs to hump ammo. The third marine is dead, the first rine hops into the pg before you can stop him, and dies. The rambo has also killed himself, and the second rine is waiting to spawn in.
"I might have to direct a support team there every once in a while, but normally, if i REALLY want a position held, i station two guards there to tell me if a buildup is in progress."
Leaving 4 men, a commchair, and a rambo. And what use are two guards? Waste res on medspamming them? Give the skulks something to do before they sit on the PG? Please. And what happens when you hear a buildup is in progress? Send in the support team? So essentially your entire squad of men are parked at your "assault" siege base? All the better for the aliens rushing your (now devoid of marines) spawn.
And why are you holding a defensive position if you're assaulting? Because you're making a defensive siege, and having to hold it from a determined kharaa effort to crack it.
You are speaking from your experience, I am speaking from mine. I *know* that as gorge, I have redundant chambers everywhere, because I don't trust my time to reinforce a hive when its under attack. I'm not the only gorge who builds redundant chambers. I also know that I've been in games where even HA HMG sieges have been broken up with a handful of skulks, a gorge, and one onos. For my part, I have never seen a siege last to endgame UNLESS the aliens have lost both hives and spent the game as skulks hoarding for onos - and in that game the comm had enough res for 5 tfacs at each minibase.
The above is MY experience on pub servers, ranging from new players to good pub servers like Lunixmonster.
I don't think it matters whether or not you lose all your upgrade chambers. There is still a chance that might happen though. It more about res lost for the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, once a siege goes down, aliens WILL take back the hive. Thus, if you READ THE POST, you'll see I say you either let your siege base go down, and WASTE all the res in it, or you keep sending men to it over and over, which allows SOME aliens to run off and have fun on the rest of the map. It only takes one alien to build an OC nest, or to waddle about capping the RTs. While your team of 8 are jumping through the PG to weld the siege base, 6 aliens can keep counterrushing it, while 2 others can waddle around the map unhindered. Perhaps laming up the other hives. Perhaps rushing base. In an 8 player game, aliens can build at 8 places at once. Marines don't have that luxury. So yes, in comparison to marines, aliens CAN be everywhere.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You didn't even address what I've said. If all the aliens are attacking you send an equal force. If there are aliens capping res or whatnot you send a different set of marines. Now I know you will respoind "but they will all just get killed." You know that works the other way around too?
If all aliens are building, you're free to counter-rush.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->No, your point doesn't stand. You're not reading the posts, and your analysis of why they lost is flawed and has no relation to the FACTS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Facts? All you're telling me is "they will get owned" and "they will get owned." It works both ways too. There is no relation to whether the siege had anything to do with it or not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And perhaps why marines keep losing? You know if you're camped trying to hold an unholdable siege for 30 minutes, the aliens will just wash right over you. Lets not forget a siege base is just a mini endgame. Its just like a lamed up tf base. And all lamed up tf bases fall unless you begin to exploit like crazy.
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Same old respond from you. "They will get owned" bla bla bla
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Again, how do you expect to use sieges offensively? You run forward, and MAKE A BASE, then from that base you hope your siege turret will hit the hive. Do you spend your time running out of that base into the hive? NO. You sit in that base, with your welders and your turrets and pray that the aliens will get bored of rushing your TF looking for a blind spot. That is NOT an offensive strategy for marines. Its nothing more than distance turtling.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um ok.. Ever heard of offensive towering? Its a common RTS strategy.
I'm done arguing with you dude. You're just giving me "they will get owned" everytime. It doesn't matter to me if you can't grasp the pros and cons of a seige. You can tell your stories of owning siege attempts to Koenig. Bye! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So first you ignore them mention of chambers, and now it doesn't matter if they're there or not. It's about res lost for aliens? How is the rest lost? Its been spent! The chambers are all up. They've "lost" no res at all. Losing res is doing something like dropping 14 turrets, a tfac and pg only to lose it all for no longterm gain.
"You didn't even address what I've said."
If you reread, you'll note I did.
"If all the aliens are attacking you send an equal force."
They send 2 onos. Or a lerk and 3-4 skulks. Thats not their full team, but assuming competent aliens you WILL need virtually your whole team to stop them. Or do you regularly see one rambo take out 4 skulks and a sporehappy adren lerk?
"If there are aliens capping res or whatnot you send a different set of marines."
The aliens send an Onos, and a gorge. You send how many marines? The aliens can run roughshod. Again, the aliens adapt so quickly that even ONE alien can be a match for half your team, which means if you're hugging the Siege base then you simply can't afford to send your men elsewhere.
"If all aliens are building, you're free to counter-rush."
And they can bounce right back. All they need to do is run to an RT, gorge, and bile it. Or spam rush it as skulk before gorging and capping. 5 aliens can cap 5 res very quickly. Could you say the same for marines? Aliens will always be winning the res game, and can leave things half built and be safe in the knowledge that they'll build themselves. Counter rush? More like "get back to the siege base and weld everything before the Onos comes back".
"Facts? All you're telling me is "they will get owned" and "they will get owned." It works both ways too. There is no relation to whether the siege had anything to do with it or not. "
No, I am telling you that hugging a siege base and spending res to keep it up while diverting men to it for constant welding WILL lose you the game. I've illustrated how it happens, and it certainly doesnt work both ways because one alien can tie up more than one marine.
"Same old respond from you. "They will get owned" bla bla bla"
If you READ it, it says rewelding and fighting over a siege for 30 minutes will lose you the game. Not "you will get owned". You've a pretty poor attitude and at the end of the day I'm trying to help marines from doing silly things, like taking UNHOLDABLE POSITIONS.
"Um ok.. Ever heard of offensive towering? Its a common RTS strategy."
A tfac crawl?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> Thats great if you're playing Starcraft or another game where you can build quickly, but its not the case in NS. Offensive towering in other games means walling them into their base. Draining them of resources. NS has three hives. You're tfacing ONE alone and fighting over it for half an hour. You're hard pressed to hold one on ONE side of a hive, let alone 6 covering both exits from all three hives.
Second, if you know anything about offensive towering, you'll know that when your tower crawl is STALLED by the enemy, you need to pull back. Usually its by building siege weaponry - in the case of NS its aliens spamming up chambers and lerks sporing so that you can't build any further. All they have to worry about is knocking down your siege turrets, and then after 20 minutes they own the rest of the map from their OTHER hives and you're STILL trying to futilely lockdown one hive, on one side, with 2 RTs if you're lucky.
Siege bases are totally unfeasible against any competent team. Marines can't afford to camp - they need to keep on the move. You take down the hive, you put stuff up INSIDE the hive room, you rush to the next hive. You don't sit for three hours fighting over ONE base thats not even IN a hive.
"I'm done arguing with you dude. You're just giving me "they will get owned" everytime. It doesn't matter to me if you can't grasp the pros and cons of a seige."
Nope, I've been pointing out where sieges go wrong, and how they can be used successfully. In short, you've paid no attention to the posts, which to me is just ignorant, impolite, and illustrates the reasons for the massive amount of marine losses against even the most incompetent alien team. Pitiful.
I do hope that other, more observant comms will get some insight into why they keep losing games over a siege. Whereas strategy "doesn't matter" to Zerg, it DOES matter to me that Comms keep improving their game, and that we try to help new comms from making the simplest of mistakes.
You may not realise this, but phase gates are absolutely ESSENTIAL in ensuring an effective hive lockdown. The time taken to press your +use key 4-5 times is insignificant to the time taken to walk the perilous journey between your base and the designated hive.
1. Defence
Hives, dualres and other keylocations(tramtunnel in bast anyone?) Makes it difficult or impossible for a skulk to cross or do any useful things with.
2. Sealing maps
If you can take all three lifts in nothing you have sealed of 4 RTs and one hive add the areas directly below and you got 3 more RTs...
3. Killing Lamed areas/hives
If this is the case, you use sieges to quickly kill defences. Compare to a catapult that kills castles but not a single peasant.
So, sieges are only a part of the much mor important Farm with Phase, allowing you to move forward, secure and reinforce.
Used correctly, a Farm can deny a large area(see above) and if the aliens try to take it back they will need Chamber support, which is easily killed by sieges.
Downpart is that you get way less res to uppgrade and buy weapons with. Its all about prioritating(or choosing a good team)
Too many phases means the marines must constantly press "use" on the phase gate to get to their destined location. Nothing annoys me more than having to go through five different locations before I get to my desired location.
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Voogru server. You can pick which place you wanna phase to. Press e and a little menu comes up at teh left hand side
Not raining on the parade, but just tempering that advice with the equally essential knowledge that aliens WILL sit on your PG.
I advise all comms to place their buildings wisely. Placing a PG in a good spot is worth more res than you will ever earn.
"Siege" cannons in NS are different - they are weapons and they attack. Yes, they kill structures and res to weaken the enemies 'supply lines' but it is not the same as a historic seige. If anything, a turret farm guarding a res node is more of a 'siege' in what it denies the aliens.
Despite all that, most people equate "siege" with an <b>attack</b> on a castle. Yes, an attack may happen, but that usually wasn't the point. You would wait out your enemy, thumbing your nose at him, until he got hungry, sick, and surrendered. Then you could claim his land and his castle as your own. If you attack it, you'll defeat your foe, but you'll eventually have to rebuild what you broke down.