Torak one thing that a lot of people have problems getting around is the fact that Christianity doesnt look at what you've done. Whether you're the nicest person in the world or the worst it doesnt matter.
According to the Bible, God judges it this way. You sin, you die. Whether you killed 3 million ppl or lied to your parents according to his justice you should be punished. Then the intercession comes into it. See my above post for my views on hell. There is no free ticket to heaven my friend. You dont say a quick prayer on your deathbed and thats it your in. There is more to being a Christian than going to church and claiming you are one. There is faith and their is a relationship. That free ticket simply doesnt apply imho.
While you see that as one of Christianities falling points, I see it as one of its strengths. Christians shouldnt judge, simply because all crimes are equal in the sight of God. Anyone can become a Christian, no matter what they have done. Grace to all. I really like that personally.
going back to the original post (because i cba to read the rest of them and it seems like it veered off topic quite quickly)
Why one beleives in God:
(this is from a personal experience)
I used to believe in God mainly because i was brought up that way. we would go to church every sunday, say prayes every night, and the most common answer to our complicated questions would be "Because thats the way Jesus designed it" As i have grown up, my belief has not changed, but my reasons have. I now believe in God because of the bible. The bible teaches about him, i believe the bible is true, therefore i believe in God
having said that, even the Devil believes in God, so i am only scratching the surface of my faith
Why should someone believe in God:
Because he loves you. How long would you put up with a fridge that didnt work. everytime you put food in it, the next morning, it was mouldy and rotten? you would throw it out and get a new one that day. or would you keep going for 10, 15, 75 years in tyhe vain hope that one day this fridge will start working? i doubt it. You are that fridge. God has the power to snuff you out with out even thinking about it, yet he sustains you. doesnt that sort of love deserve some kind of recognition?
<a href='http://saif_w.tripod.com/interfaith/christianity/in_some_forgotten_sayings_of_jesus.htm' target='_blank'>http://saif_w.tripod.com/interfaith/christ...gs_of_jesus.htm</a> - This is an interesting read for anyone who has somekind of opinion about The Bible. I kind of found it depressing that there would be such incosistencies in The New Testament. I guess it isn't perfect and any claims that Jesus said it is must be a lie. Believing in Jesus to be God incarnate for me was because I thought it to be virtue of the absurd, but incosistencies in the text isn't absurd, it is faith shattering.
That's an interesting opinion from a Muslim point of view, but when you are writing a critique of faith, its full theology must be taken into account, so as not to misrepresent the subject you are criticizing.
The author failed to address both the <a href='http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm' target='_blank'>Trinity</a> and the <a href='http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm' target='_blank'>Hypostatic Union</a>, which resolve all supposed inconsistencies.
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple.
The man spoke first: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's **** with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss his ****?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ****, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, he'll kick the **** out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do what ever he wants and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ****."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ****?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's **** with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's **** often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and he kicks the **** out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ****, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's **** for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise; maybe you'll win a small lotto; maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain connections."
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars! Can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's **** he'll kick the **** of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss his ****?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ****. Other times we kiss Karl's ****, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ****. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss his ****, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on "From the desk of Karl" letterhead. There were eleven items listed:
1.) Kiss Hank's **** and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town. 2.) Use alcohol in moderation. 3.) Kick the **** out of people who aren't like you. 4.) Eat right. 5.) Hank dictated this list himself. 6.) The moon is made of green cheese. 7.) Everything Hank says is right. 8.) Wash your hands after going to the bathroom. 9.) Don't drink. 10.) Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments. 11.) Kiss Hank's **** or he'll kick the **** out of you.
Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the **** out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But #9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with #2. And #6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2; 9 just clarifies 2. As to 6, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from outer space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because he says he's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary looks positively stricken.
John shouts: "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary (sticking her fingers in her ears): "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary faints.
John (catching her): "Well, if I'd known you were one of those, I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the **** out of you, I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's **** for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater." With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A lot of supposed Biblical inconsistancies are due to a lack of understanding of context and translation difficulties Bosnian, so I believe Twex pretty well covered it.
One link from another thread led to <a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/' target='_blank'>an intriguing website</a> by a Christian skeptic/apologetic. He's incredibly resourceful and has covered many questions by readers.
Among them: <a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/nextseat.html' target='_blank'>Mini-argument for faith</a> <a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/adam01.html' target='_blank'>Certainty vs. Proof</a>
I don't know if non-believers can relate to this kind of approach, though.
EDIT: He also covered the Trinity question which popped up. I think his close-to-scripture theology is more appealing to Protestants than the Encyclopedia link above. <a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/theoudelphia.html' target='_blank'>Does Jesus' submission to the Father disprove his deity?</a>
I don't believe it is worked out well in The Bible, it is certainly contradicted. And I doubt translation is a problem. I think scholars found The Bible of today to be %98 accurate to the original text (funny that you're using the same "translation" argument to defend your beliefs while atheists use it to attack them). I believe Jesus is the Son of God, and I'd rather say that I believe God to be Jesus than Jesus to be God, if you know what I mean. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> I just don't place the full weight of my faith on The Bible.
Translation is a bit of an iffy one Bosnian. Its really hard to translate something from Ancient Hebrew or Ancient Greek and retain the same context and meaning. Thats why we have so many translations, people dont agree on the context of certain passages.
Have a look at Twex' stuff, I havent read it so I cant vouch for it, but before you accept that the Bible contradicts itself, read a bit of material that claims it doesnt.
If you are right, then you'll easily be able to see the flaws in the supporting arguement. At least you'll get a balanced view.
<!--QuoteBegin--Marine01+Sep 7 2003, 03:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Marine01 @ Sep 7 2003, 03:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Have a look at Twex' stuff, I havent read it so I cant vouch for it, but before you accept that the Bible contradicts itself, read a bit of material that claims it doesnt.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And even it it were to end up in a contradiction, so what? In my understanding the Bible (at least the New Testament, which seems to be the section at issue here) doesn't claim to be the literal word of God, as the Qu'an does (well, the words of God passed thru the Angel Gaberiel to Mohammed), but rather is a collection of accounts, by diffrent people, of events in which God played a direct role and of the life of Jesus. If it is not directly from God, then is it impossible that one of the writer's preception of what happened could be slightly different than that of another?
Comments
According to the Bible, God judges it this way. You sin, you die. Whether you killed 3 million ppl or lied to your parents according to his justice you should be punished. Then the intercession comes into it. See my above post for my views on hell. There is no free ticket to heaven my friend. You dont say a quick prayer on your deathbed and thats it your in. There is more to being a Christian than going to church and claiming you are one. There is faith and their is a relationship. That free ticket simply doesnt apply imho.
While you see that as one of Christianities falling points, I see it as one of its strengths. Christians shouldnt judge, simply because all crimes are equal in the sight of God. Anyone can become a Christian, no matter what they have done. Grace to all. I really like that personally.
EDIT
Srry nem posted too late,will not discuss further
Why one beleives in God:
(this is from a personal experience)
I used to believe in God mainly because i was brought up that way. we would go to church every sunday, say prayes every night, and the most common answer to our complicated questions would be "Because thats the way Jesus designed it" As i have grown up, my belief has not changed, but my reasons have. I now believe in God because of the bible. The bible teaches about him, i believe the bible is true, therefore i believe in God
having said that, even the Devil believes in God, so i am only scratching the surface of my faith
Why should someone believe in God:
Because he loves you. How long would you put up with a fridge that didnt work. everytime you put food in it, the next morning, it was mouldy and rotten? you would throw it out and get a new one that day. or would you keep going for 10, 15, 75 years in tyhe vain hope that one day this fridge will start working? i doubt it. You are that fridge. God has the power to snuff you out with out even thinking about it, yet he sustains you. doesnt that sort of love deserve some kind of recognition?
The author failed to address both the <a href='http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm' target='_blank'>Trinity</a> and the <a href='http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07610b.htm' target='_blank'>Hypostatic Union</a>, which resolve all supposed inconsistencies.
". . . Do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. (Matthew 23:1,9 NIV 1984)
"Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone." (Mark 10:18)
The word filter removes it, **** = @$$
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Kissing Hank's ****
This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple.
The man spoke first: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: "Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's **** with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss his ****?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ****, he'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, he'll kick the **** out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do what ever he wants and what he wants is to give you a million dollars, but he can't until you kiss his ****."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ****?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's **** with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's **** often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has he given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no, you don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and he kicks the **** out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ****, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's **** for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think he'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, he gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise; maybe you'll win a small lotto; maybe you'll just find a twenty dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain connections."
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars! Can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's **** he'll kick the **** of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to him, get the details straight from him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss his ****?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow him a kiss, and think of his ****. Other times we kiss Karl's ****, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ****. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss his ****, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl's got a letter Hank sent him years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
John handed me a photocopy of a handwritten memo on "From the desk of Karl" letterhead. There were eleven items listed:
1.) Kiss Hank's **** and he'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2.) Use alcohol in moderation.
3.) Kick the **** out of people who aren't like you.
4.) Eat right.
5.) Hank dictated this list himself.
6.) The moon is made of green cheese.
7.) Everything Hank says is right.
8.) Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9.) Don't drink.
10.) Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.) Kiss Hank's **** or he'll kick the **** out of you.
Me: "This would appear to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago he would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said he was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the **** out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says Everything Hanks says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But #9 says 'Don't Drink,' which doesn't quite go with #2. And #6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2; 9 just clarifies 2. As to 6, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from outer space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon came from the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Aha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 5 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because he says he's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary looks positively stricken.
John shouts: "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary (sticking her fingers in her ears): "I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary faints.
John (catching her): "Well, if I'd known you were one of those, I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the **** out of you, I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's **** for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater." With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Source: <a href='http://www.jhuger.com/index.mv' target='_blank'>http://www.jhuger.com/index.mv</a>
You dont believe the Trinity is in the Bible?
Among them:
<a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/nextseat.html' target='_blank'>Mini-argument for faith</a>
<a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/adam01.html' target='_blank'>Certainty vs. Proof</a>
I don't know if non-believers can relate to this kind of approach, though.
EDIT:
He also covered the Trinity question which popped up. I think his close-to-scripture theology is more appealing to Protestants than the Encyclopedia link above.
<a href='http://www.christian-thinktank.com/theoudelphia.html' target='_blank'>Does Jesus' submission to the Father disprove his deity?</a>
Have a look at Twex' stuff, I havent read it so I cant vouch for it, but before you accept that the Bible contradicts itself, read a bit of material that claims it doesnt.
If you are right, then you'll easily be able to see the flaws in the supporting arguement. At least you'll get a balanced view.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And even it it were to end up in a contradiction, so what? In my understanding the Bible (at least the New Testament, which seems to be the section at issue here) doesn't claim to be the literal word of God, as the Qu'an does (well, the words of God passed thru the Angel Gaberiel to Mohammed), but rather is a collection of accounts, by diffrent people, of events in which God played a direct role and of the life of Jesus. If it is not directly from God, then is it impossible that one of the writer's preception of what happened could be slightly different than that of another?