<!--QuoteBegin--Soylent green+Aug 18 2003, 01:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Aug 18 2003, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> got sent to 6 which is kind of odd since I'm an atheist not a heretic, Shouldn't I be a sinful disbeliever or whatever? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You only go to Limbo if you're a "virtuous disbeliever" - eg, you're essentially innocent of any sin, but didn't "know the way" to Heaven, so to speak. For example, children who die unbaptized, virtuous people who never had the opportunity to know the true God, et cetera. Sinful disbelievers go to whatever level of Hell matches their sin.
<!--QuoteBegin--343_guilty_spark+Aug 18 2003, 01:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (343_guilty_spark @ Aug 18 2003, 01:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> what so good about post 1024 ? Danta as in devil may cry ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1024 = 2^10. A sacred number.
Dante as in Dante Alighieri, author of the Divine Comedy, which is what we're discussing here. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
<!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Aug 18 2003, 04:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Aug 18 2003, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Soylent green+Aug 18 2003, 01:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Aug 18 2003, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> got sent to 6 which is kind of odd since I'm an atheist not a heretic, Shouldn't I be a sinful disbeliever or whatever? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You only go to Limbo if you're a "virtuous disbeliever" - eg, you're essentially innocent of any sin, but didn't "know the way" to Heaven, so to speak. For example, children who die unbaptized, virtuous people who never had the opportunity to know the true God, et cetera. Sinful disbelievers go to whatever level of Hell matches their sin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that seems kinda stuipd, if you were raised in an african or u are part of some indiginous culture of austrailia or south america and thus u were raised in ways, never knowing of "god" then why not go to heaven if you lead a good life,
same with unbaptised children, what if you were just born then you died of SIDS or something before they got a chance to baptise you, what,? just b/c of a stupid technicality you cant to go heaven?
Seems kinda stupid in going along with the whole merciful and forgiveness thingy.
2^10 is a sacred number? BTW thats as high as you can count on your fingers, if you use them to represent a number in a binary base. Each finger representing a 1 or 0 depending on it being extended or. Who said counting on your hands was useless when you reach numbers above ten?... You could probably do some simple floating point on your fingers too...
Cpl.davis, the christian god seems to believe that being "technically correct is the best kind of correct", at least according to Dante
Well anwser me this... Why would someone get punished eternally for the sins they commited in the course of their short lives? And why would god torment people like that? Not very loving... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> If god IS love. its not an act of justice.. its certainly not forgiving. or kind, or an act of goodness. Basicly that would contradict everything else taught...
and if god kills satan? then the whole concept of satan running hell is false. and why would satan run hell? that would be punishing people, for doing what he wanted them to do. turn against god. So that idea of hell, wouldnt make sense...
i do my research too. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> research mostly on people and their ideas. and comprehension of things. cause people are interesting. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Cpl.Davis+Aug 18 2003, 01:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.Davis @ Aug 18 2003, 01:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seems kinda stupid in going along with the whole merciful and forgiveness thingy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You misunderstand. God doesn't send you to Limbo - you just end up there because you never imagined anything better.
The Greek and Roman guys who ended up there... well, that's what they imagined the afterlife as. Just hangin' out. So that's what they got. It's not a punishment, it's what they chose for themselves, basically. Unbaptized infants, same deal - they never had an opportunity to find out about God for themselves, and their parents didn't take care of them by having them baptized (you can baptize infants after death too, I believe, even if they're stillborn, so there's always an opportunity for the parent to save the child's soul), so they end up in Limbo because they had no way of knowing anything better. Again, it's not a punishment.
Of course, Limbo ain't bad, but it still ain't anything to even compare to heaven. Which is why missionaries try to convert people, parents have their children baptized, et cetera.
(Again, I'm just giving you the answers as I think Dante would have explained it - I'm not quite sure I personally believe in everything Dante says, but I do find his ideas intriguing, to say the least.)
The worst thing about religions IMHO is that they are mutually exclusive, if you believe in the wrong deity or deities or teapots with extraordniary powers etc, every other religion will basically have some clause that you are not allowed to do this and that you will be horribly punished for you 'evil' behaviour.
Given enough religions then choosing the right one is a luck of the draw since they all make as little sense. I have choosen to not choose a religion and therefor live a fun life knowing I will be eternally punished by a deity and or deities and or teapot for my abhorent behaviour instead of knowing that I will almost certainly be punished by a deity and or deities and or teapot for all eternity as well as leading a less fun life. I also get rid of the uncertainy of 'am I going to be eternally punished?', I know I will <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Do take this post as a joke... pretty please with sugar ontop?
Lots of people seem to be missing this point (which is what I LOVE about Dante's conception of Hell, because it pretty much resolves all of the issues which were mentioned, which I agree are important): God doesn't punish you by sending you to Hell. You send yourself there. God just tries to steer you clear before it's too late.
Your sins in life only land you in Hell if the sins were so deeply ingrained in you that you never felt sorry for them and had no desire to leave them behind. When you die, you simply experience your sins as they truly are, and you get to continue wallowing in them. The only thing that changes is the removable of the illusion (Dante shares something with Buddhism here, the notion that life is largely illusion). For example, the wrathful in their swamp - they have spent their lives marinating in their own wrath, refusing to abandon it, and in Hell, they simply continue to do so, only now their wrath takes a more physical form (a swamp). Every single layer of Hell can be demonstrated to be a simple reflection of the sin that it represents - no more and no less. Hence Limbo is a peaceful place, albeit one devoid of God's presence (because those who go there were virtuous but did not know God).
Re: God killing Satan - it doesn't appear to be on the agenda. And in Dante's model of it, Satan (Lucifer) doesn't "rule" Hell per se - he just sits at the bottom of it. In the popular medieval conception of the world and the underworld, Hell was created when Lucifer was cast from Heaven. The force of his impact dug a cone (the Inferno) all the way to the center of the earth, which is where Lucifer sits now. All of the earth that Lucifer pushed through to form Hell got shoved out the other side of the Earth, and it forms Mount Purgatory, which repentant sinners can climb to ascend to Paradise (the state they were in before the fall from grace).
Make sense? The Romans weren't <i>wrong</i>, they just didn't have the whole picture. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thanx Samwise, I knew you'd come through and explain it ;P makes me want to go study the work myself. I tried reading it once but I'm easily distracted by shiny objects...
I read the Sayers translation published by Penguin Books, and I recommend it highly. Be sure to read the commentaries at the end of each canto (particularly the <i>The Images</i>).
My professor is particularly fond of the Mendelbaum translation, and he seems to know what he's talking about most of the time, so that's probably another good one to try.
BTW I have some vaguely-conceived notion of doing a single-player Inferno mod with the Source engine. I'll let y'all know if that ever pans out. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Cpl.Davis+Aug 18 2003, 05:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.Davis @ Aug 18 2003, 05:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Aug 18 2003, 04:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Aug 18 2003, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Soylent green+Aug 18 2003, 01:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Aug 18 2003, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> got sent to 6 which is kind of odd since I'm an atheist not a heretic, Shouldn't I be a sinful disbeliever or whatever? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You only go to Limbo if you're a "virtuous disbeliever" - eg, you're essentially innocent of any sin, but didn't "know the way" to Heaven, so to speak. For example, children who die unbaptized, virtuous people who never had the opportunity to know the true God, et cetera. Sinful disbelievers go to whatever level of Hell matches their sin. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that seems kinda stuipd, if you were raised in an african or u are part of some indiginous culture of austrailia or south america and thus u were raised in ways, never knowing of "god" then why not go to heaven if you lead a good life,
same with unbaptised children, what if you were just born then you died of SIDS or something before they got a chance to baptise you, what,? just b/c of a stupid technicality you cant to go heaven?
Seems kinda stupid in going along with the whole merciful and forgiveness thingy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I loved readung Dante's Inferno too, darn my bad memory but it's coming back, it was such a great read!
Dante wasn't trying to rag on non-believers, it seemed like he felt bad for them, and he wished they could go to heaven don't you think Samwise? I remember them explaing Limbo as a really decent place, not like Hell at all, a lot of awesome people went there, people that Dante respected including Greek scholars, and Virgil his guide who Dante owed a lot to. I would definately recomend readin Dante's Inferno, I think I'm going to go re-read it.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<!--QuoteBegin--NSPlayaGirl+Aug 18 2003, 11:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NSPlayaGirl @ Aug 18 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Cpl.Davis+Aug 18 2003, 05:49 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.Davis @ Aug 18 2003, 05:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Aug 18 2003, 04:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Aug 18 2003, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Soylent green+Aug 18 2003, 01:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Soylent green @ Aug 18 2003, 01:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> got sent to 6 which is kind of odd since I'm an atheist not a heretic, Shouldn't I be a sinful disbeliever or whatever? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You only go to Limbo if you're a "virtuous disbeliever" - eg, you're essentially innocent of any sin, but didn't "know the way" to Heaven, so to speak. For example, children who die unbaptized, virtuous people who never had the opportunity to know the true God, et cetera. Sinful disbelievers go to whatever level of Hell matches their sin. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> that seems kinda stuipd, if you were raised in an african or u are part of some indiginous culture of austrailia or south america and thus u were raised in ways, never knowing of "god" then why not go to heaven if you lead a good life,
same with unbaptised children, what if you were just born then you died of SIDS or something before they got a chance to baptise you, what,? just b/c of a stupid technicality you cant to go heaven?
Seems kinda stupid in going along with the whole merciful and forgiveness thingy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I loved readung Dante's Inferno too, darn my bad memory but it's coming back, it was such a great read!
Dante wasn't trying to rag on non-believers, it seemed like he felt bad for them, and he wished they could go to heaven don't you think Samwise? I remember them explaing Limbo as a really decent place, not like Hell at all, a lot of awesome people went there, people that Dante respected including Greek scholars, and Virgil his guide who Dante owed a lot to. I would definately recomend readin Dante's Inferno, I think I'm going to go re-read it.
--Jane <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, yeah. but the truth is, now everybody wants to know whether or not you took the test, and what your score was, so they can go back and calculate whether or not you're a chronic masturbator.
(always here to overanalyze, folks.. call me up if you need it done)
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
A question to anyone, notably P4 Smmwise b/c he seems to actual have read stuff.,
If this is a God/Satan concept why are there so many mythological creatures of Greek origion in there? ex. Cerberous, Charon, Harpies etc,
And if god doesnt send people to limbo but those who go there are sent there b/c they never had the chance to imagine somthing higher, well why doesnt "god in all his mercy" move them up the ladder somewhere better? Its not like they committed a mortal sin fully well knowing/ choosing to not belive in him. Or is that one of thoes "technical things" you spoke of earlier.
While for my own personal reasons not a religious person at all I like to know about others knoweledge/info/beliefs/opinions etc
<!--QuoteBegin--NSPlayaGirl+Aug 18 2003, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NSPlayaGirl @ Aug 18 2003, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dante wasn't trying to rag on non-believers, it seemed like he felt bad for them, and he wished they could go to heaven don't you think Samwise? I remember them explaing Limbo as a really decent place, not like Hell at all, a lot of awesome people went there, people that Dante respected including Greek scholars, and Virgil his guide who Dante owed a lot to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Totally. A lot of Dante's personal heroes were in Limbo. There were even a few in the lower levels of Hell - Farinata, and whatsisname-Brunneto. The only ones that Dante didn't seem to feel sorry for to at least some extent were the popes and the Three Big Traitors (Judas, Brutus, and Cassius).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If this is a God/Satan concept why are there so many mythological creatures of Greek origion in there? ex. Cerberous, Charon, Harpies etc,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Addressed this one or two pages ago - go check it out. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> In a nutshell, Dante uses ancient Greek/Roman imagery as a visual aid for the mortal mind. The Greeks/Romans didn't get it all wrong, they just missed the really important parts (which is why most of them are in Limbo).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if god doesnt send people to limbo but those who go there are sent there b/c they never had the chance to imagine somthing higher, well why doesnt "god in all his mercy" move them up the ladder somewhere better?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God can't just push people up the ladder - IMHO it ties in with free will. If God had the power to just move you from one place to another, you wouldn't really have free will. All God can do is try to give you some guidance (e.g. by coming to Earth in mortal form and dying for our sins - cf. the New Testament) and hope that you'll choose to follow.
<!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Aug 18 2003, 08:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Aug 18 2003, 08:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--NSPlayaGirl+Aug 18 2003, 03:18 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NSPlayaGirl @ Aug 18 2003, 03:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Dante wasn't trying to rag on non-believers, it seemed like he felt bad for them, and he wished they could go to heaven don't you think Samwise? I remember them explaing Limbo as a really decent place, not like Hell at all, a lot of awesome people went there, people that Dante respected including Greek scholars, and Virgil his guide who Dante owed a lot to. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Totally. A lot of Dante's personal heroes were in Limbo. There were even a few in the lower levels of Hell - Farinata, and whatsisname-Brunneto. The only ones that Dante didn't seem to feel sorry for to at least some extent were the popes and the Three Big Traitors (Judas, Brutus, and Cassius). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well duh, Dante was excamunicated, so therefore he wasn't a big fan of the popes etc. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--[p4]Samwise+Aug 18 2003, 05:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([p4]Samwise @ Aug 18 2003, 05:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lots of people seem to be missing this point (which is what I LOVE about Dante's conception of Hell, because it pretty much resolves all of the issues which were mentioned, which I agree are important): God doesn't punish you by sending you to Hell. You send yourself there. God just tries to steer you clear before it's too late.
Your sins in life only land you in Hell if the sins were so deeply ingrained in you that you never felt sorry for them and had no desire to leave them behind. When you die, you simply experience your sins as they truly are, and you get to continue wallowing in them. The only thing that changes is the removable of the illusion (Dante shares something with Buddhism here, the notion that life is largely illusion). For example, the wrathful in their swamp - they have spent their lives marinating in their own wrath, refusing to abandon it, and in Hell, they simply continue to do so, only now their wrath takes a more physical form (a swamp). Every single layer of Hell can be demonstrated to be a simple reflection of the sin that it represents - no more and no less. Hence Limbo is a peaceful place, albeit one devoid of God's presence (because those who go there were virtuous but did not know God).
Re: God killing Satan - it doesn't appear to be on the agenda. And in Dante's model of it, Satan (Lucifer) doesn't "rule" Hell per se - he just sits at the bottom of it. In the popular medieval conception of the world and the underworld, Hell was created when Lucifer was cast from Heaven. The force of his impact dug a cone (the Inferno) all the way to the center of the earth, which is where Lucifer sits now. All of the earth that Lucifer pushed through to form Hell got shoved out the other side of the Earth, and it forms Mount Purgatory, which repentant sinners can climb to ascend to Paradise (the state they were in before the fall from grace). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> interesting idea. once again his idea. I have never concluded anything from any one persons idea. I see things in a much differant way but when it comes down to it no one ever really knows... till they die.
<!--QuoteBegin--Cpl.Davis+Aug 18 2003, 06:48 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cpl.Davis @ Aug 18 2003, 06:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A question to anyone, notably P4 Smmwise b/c he seems to actual have read stuff.,
If this is a God/Satan concept why are there so many mythological creatures of Greek origion in there? ex. Cerberous, Charon, Harpies etc, <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The Greeks treated their gods as merely myths, merely meanings and attitudes in which to look upon in awe or understanding (sort of like Aesop's fables).
But the Christians treat their God, and the Bible, as a factual/historical figure. So a comparison between the two dichotomies would be unfair.
True, Christianity was appropriated from the Greeks, but more on their philosophy (Plato, Aristotle) than myths (Homer).
Comments
You only go to Limbo if you're a "virtuous disbeliever" - eg, you're essentially innocent of any sin, but didn't "know the way" to Heaven, so to speak. For example, children who die unbaptized, virtuous people who never had the opportunity to know the true God, et cetera. Sinful disbelievers go to whatever level of Hell matches their sin.
[edit: OMG post 1024!]
Danta as in devil may cry ?
Danta as in devil may cry ? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1024 = 2^10. A sacred number.
Dante as in Dante Alighieri, author of the Divine Comedy, which is what we're discussing here. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
You only go to Limbo if you're a "virtuous disbeliever" - eg, you're essentially innocent of any sin, but didn't "know the way" to Heaven, so to speak. For example, children who die unbaptized, virtuous people who never had the opportunity to know the true God, et cetera. Sinful disbelievers go to whatever level of Hell matches their sin. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that seems kinda stuipd, if you were raised in an african or u are part of some indiginous culture of austrailia or south america and thus u were raised in ways, never knowing of "god" then why not go to heaven if you lead a good life,
same with unbaptised children, what if you were just born then you died of SIDS or something before they got a chance to baptise you,
what,? just b/c of a stupid technicality you cant to go heaven?
Seems kinda stupid in going along with the whole merciful and forgiveness thingy.
Cpl.davis, the christian god seems to believe that being "technically correct is the best kind of correct", at least according to Dante
Why would someone get punished eternally for the sins they commited in the course of their short lives?
And why would god torment people like that?
Not very loving... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
If god IS love.
its not an act of justice..
its certainly not forgiving.
or kind, or an act of goodness.
Basicly that would contradict everything else taught...
and if god kills satan?
then the whole concept of satan running hell is false.
and why would satan run hell? that would be punishing people, for doing what he wanted them to do. turn against god. So that idea of hell, wouldnt make sense...
i do my research too. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
research mostly on people and their ideas. and comprehension of things.
cause people are interesting. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You misunderstand. God doesn't send you to Limbo - you just end up there because you never imagined anything better.
The Greek and Roman guys who ended up there... well, that's what they imagined the afterlife as. Just hangin' out. So that's what they got. It's not a punishment, it's what they chose for themselves, basically. Unbaptized infants, same deal - they never had an opportunity to find out about God for themselves, and their parents didn't take care of them by having them baptized (you can baptize infants after death too, I believe, even if they're stillborn, so there's always an opportunity for the parent to save the child's soul), so they end up in Limbo because they had no way of knowing anything better. Again, it's not a punishment.
Of course, Limbo ain't bad, but it still ain't anything to even compare to heaven. Which is why missionaries try to convert people, parents have their children baptized, et cetera.
(Again, I'm just giving you the answers as I think Dante would have explained it - I'm not quite sure I personally believe in everything Dante says, but I do find his ideas intriguing, to say the least.)
Given enough religions then choosing the right one is a luck of the draw since they all make as little sense. I have choosen to not choose a religion and therefor live a fun life knowing I will be eternally punished by a deity and or deities and or teapot for my abhorent behaviour instead of knowing that I will almost certainly be punished by a deity and or deities and or teapot for all eternity as well as leading a less fun life. I also get rid of the uncertainy of 'am I going to be eternally punished?', I know I will <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
Do take this post as a joke... pretty please with sugar ontop?
Your sins in life only land you in Hell if the sins were so deeply ingrained in you that you never felt sorry for them and had no desire to leave them behind. When you die, you simply experience your sins as they truly are, and you get to continue wallowing in them. The only thing that changes is the removable of the illusion (Dante shares something with Buddhism here, the notion that life is largely illusion). For example, the wrathful in their swamp - they have spent their lives marinating in their own wrath, refusing to abandon it, and in Hell, they simply continue to do so, only now their wrath takes a more physical form (a swamp). Every single layer of Hell can be demonstrated to be a simple reflection of the sin that it represents - no more and no less. Hence Limbo is a peaceful place, albeit one devoid of God's presence (because those who go there were virtuous but did not know God).
Re: God killing Satan - it doesn't appear to be on the agenda. And in Dante's model of it, Satan (Lucifer) doesn't "rule" Hell per se - he just sits at the bottom of it. In the popular medieval conception of the world and the underworld, Hell was created when Lucifer was cast from Heaven. The force of his impact dug a cone (the Inferno) all the way to the center of the earth, which is where Lucifer sits now. All of the earth that Lucifer pushed through to form Hell got shoved out the other side of the Earth, and it forms Mount Purgatory, which repentant sinners can climb to ascend to Paradise (the state they were in before the fall from grace).
Make sense? The Romans weren't <i>wrong</i>, they just didn't have the whole picture. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanx Samwise, I knew you'd come through and explain it ;P makes me want to go study the work myself. I tried reading it once but I'm easily distracted by shiny objects...
My professor is particularly fond of the Mendelbaum translation, and he seems to know what he's talking about most of the time, so that's probably another good one to try.
Avoid Pinsky like the plague.
You only go to Limbo if you're a "virtuous disbeliever" - eg, you're essentially innocent of any sin, but didn't "know the way" to Heaven, so to speak. For example, children who die unbaptized, virtuous people who never had the opportunity to know the true God, et cetera. Sinful disbelievers go to whatever level of Hell matches their sin. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that seems kinda stuipd, if you were raised in an african or u are part of some indiginous culture of austrailia or south america and thus u were raised in ways, never knowing of "god" then why not go to heaven if you lead a good life,
same with unbaptised children, what if you were just born then you died of SIDS or something before they got a chance to baptise you,
what,? just b/c of a stupid technicality you cant to go heaven?
Seems kinda stupid in going along with the whole merciful and forgiveness thingy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I loved readung Dante's Inferno too, darn my bad memory but it's coming back, it was such a great read!
Dante wasn't trying to rag on non-believers, it seemed like he felt bad for them, and he wished they could go to heaven don't you think Samwise? I remember them explaing Limbo as a really decent place, not like Hell at all, a lot of awesome people went there, people that Dante respected including Greek scholars, and Virgil his guide who Dante owed a lot to. I would definately recomend readin Dante's Inferno, I think I'm going to go re-read it.
--Jane
You only go to Limbo if you're a "virtuous disbeliever" - eg, you're essentially innocent of any sin, but didn't "know the way" to Heaven, so to speak. For example, children who die unbaptized, virtuous people who never had the opportunity to know the true God, et cetera. Sinful disbelievers go to whatever level of Hell matches their sin. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that seems kinda stuipd, if you were raised in an african or u are part of some indiginous culture of austrailia or south america and thus u were raised in ways, never knowing of "god" then why not go to heaven if you lead a good life,
same with unbaptised children, what if you were just born then you died of SIDS or something before they got a chance to baptise you,
what,? just b/c of a stupid technicality you cant to go heaven?
Seems kinda stupid in going along with the whole merciful and forgiveness thingy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I loved readung Dante's Inferno too, darn my bad memory but it's coming back, it was such a great read!
Dante wasn't trying to rag on non-believers, it seemed like he felt bad for them, and he wished they could go to heaven don't you think Samwise? I remember them explaing Limbo as a really decent place, not like Hell at all, a lot of awesome people went there, people that Dante respected including Greek scholars, and Virgil his guide who Dante owed a lot to. I would definately recomend readin Dante's Inferno, I think I'm going to go re-read it.
--Jane <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, yeah. but the truth is, now everybody wants to know whether or not you took the test, and what your score was, so they can go back and calculate whether or not you're a chronic masturbator.
(always here to overanalyze, folks.. call me up if you need it done)
If this is a God/Satan concept why are there so many mythological creatures of Greek origion in there? ex. Cerberous, Charon, Harpies etc,
And if god doesnt send people to limbo but those who go there are sent there b/c they never had the chance to imagine somthing higher, well why doesnt "god in all his mercy" move them up the ladder somewhere better? Its not like they committed a mortal sin fully well knowing/ choosing to not belive in him. Or is that one of thoes "technical things" you spoke of earlier.
While for my own personal reasons not a religious person at all I like to know about others knoweledge/info/beliefs/opinions etc
-thanks
Totally. A lot of Dante's personal heroes were in Limbo. There were even a few in the lower levels of Hell - Farinata, and whatsisname-Brunneto. The only ones that Dante didn't seem to feel sorry for to at least some extent were the popes and the Three Big Traitors (Judas, Brutus, and Cassius).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If this is a God/Satan concept why are there so many mythological creatures of Greek origion in there? ex. Cerberous, Charon, Harpies etc,<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Addressed this one or two pages ago - go check it out. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> In a nutshell, Dante uses ancient Greek/Roman imagery as a visual aid for the mortal mind. The Greeks/Romans didn't get it all wrong, they just missed the really important parts (which is why most of them are in Limbo).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And if god doesnt send people to limbo but those who go there are sent there b/c they never had the chance to imagine somthing higher, well why doesnt "god in all his mercy" move them up the ladder somewhere better?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
God can't just push people up the ladder - IMHO it ties in with free will. If God had the power to just move you from one place to another, you wouldn't really have free will. All God can do is try to give you some guidance (e.g. by coming to Earth in mortal form and dying for our sins - cf. the New Testament) and hope that you'll choose to follow.
Totally. A lot of Dante's personal heroes were in Limbo. There were even a few in the lower levels of Hell - Farinata, and whatsisname-Brunneto. The only ones that Dante didn't seem to feel sorry for to at least some extent were the popes and the Three Big Traitors (Judas, Brutus, and Cassius). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well duh, Dante was excamunicated, so therefore he wasn't a big fan of the popes etc. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
--Jane
Your sins in life only land you in Hell if the sins were so deeply ingrained in you that you never felt sorry for them and had no desire to leave them behind. When you die, you simply experience your sins as they truly are, and you get to continue wallowing in them. The only thing that changes is the removable of the illusion (Dante shares something with Buddhism here, the notion that life is largely illusion). For example, the wrathful in their swamp - they have spent their lives marinating in their own wrath, refusing to abandon it, and in Hell, they simply continue to do so, only now their wrath takes a more physical form (a swamp). Every single layer of Hell can be demonstrated to be a simple reflection of the sin that it represents - no more and no less. Hence Limbo is a peaceful place, albeit one devoid of God's presence (because those who go there were virtuous but did not know God).
Re: God killing Satan - it doesn't appear to be on the agenda. And in Dante's model of it, Satan (Lucifer) doesn't "rule" Hell per se - he just sits at the bottom of it. In the popular medieval conception of the world and the underworld, Hell was created when Lucifer was cast from Heaven. The force of his impact dug a cone (the Inferno) all the way to the center of the earth, which is where Lucifer sits now. All of the earth that Lucifer pushed through to form Hell got shoved out the other side of the Earth, and it forms Mount Purgatory, which repentant sinners can climb to ascend to Paradise (the state they were in before the fall from grace). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> interesting idea.
once again his idea.
I have never concluded anything from any one persons idea.
I see things in a much differant way
but when it comes down to it
no one ever really knows...
till they die.
If this is a God/Satan concept why are there so many mythological creatures of Greek origion in there? ex. Cerberous, Charon, Harpies etc,
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Greeks treated their gods as merely myths, merely meanings and attitudes in which to look upon in awe or understanding (sort of like Aesop's fables).
But the Christians treat their God, and the Bible, as a factual/historical figure. So a comparison between the two dichotomies would be unfair.
True, Christianity was appropriated from the Greeks, but more on their philosophy (Plato, Aristotle) than myths (Homer).