Class Balances
Jimmeny
Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19049Members
Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19049Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Not your usual balance post</div> Now, I know everyone is fed up of hearing the word 'balance'. I am also fed up of hearing flaming all the time. This is my disclaimer that I am not flaming anyone, or anything, I'm simply putting forward ideas that I have collected from what people say and my own ideas. I'm sorry if they have been said before, I used the search facility and did not see anything that might pertain to being the same as this post.
NS2.0 has brought great diversity in tactics, mainly for aliens, marines it's still usually about HAs, and JPs have been pushed out of the game due to expense.
My feelings are perhaps that the 'teams' shouldn't be balanced with each other, but the 'classes' - the individuals in the game - should be.
Basically
Onos = HA (no upgrades)
Fade = normal marine (no upgrades)
Skulk = half marine (no upgrades) (i.e 2 skulks will have a fair fight with 1 marine)
Lerk = support class, as it is in 2.0
then, the teamplay comes in the fact that if a marine has any upgrades, then it will take more than one alien to kill a marine.
An HA with full upgrades will be stronger then one onos, so the onos will need another alien with it. Aliens will therefore learn to move in packs, and this will discourage marines from ramboing! An average marine will be destroyed by 2 skulks, but not one, unless the skulk is a good ambusher.
ATM, Fades are my favourite class, but their middle abilities of blink and metabolism aren't very attack minded, they encourage the hit and run everyone talks about, hence the term super skulk. Either acid rocket becomes stronger, or it's made weaker and becomes a hive 2. I mean, lerks have a long range weapon on one hive, so the fades long range weapon, on 2 hives, can be marginally stronger than that.
The Lerk role as a support class is balanced to perfection, however, it's not used much as umbra isn't that great if it isn't used properly, and with it being aimable, it's hard for a lerk to protect itself aswell as everyone else.
Skulks are funny, they aren't much different to 1.04, but they aren't played as much either, people have a problem being skulk because it's easier to go fade or onos, especially when fade is like a strong skulk anyway. Apart from bite being better than swipe. Swipe should be made ever so slightly stronger, imo.
I'm merely bouncing these ideas off the community. If there are fundamental reason why this couldn't work in practice, I would like to hear them.
NS2.0 has brought great diversity in tactics, mainly for aliens, marines it's still usually about HAs, and JPs have been pushed out of the game due to expense.
My feelings are perhaps that the 'teams' shouldn't be balanced with each other, but the 'classes' - the individuals in the game - should be.
Basically
Onos = HA (no upgrades)
Fade = normal marine (no upgrades)
Skulk = half marine (no upgrades) (i.e 2 skulks will have a fair fight with 1 marine)
Lerk = support class, as it is in 2.0
then, the teamplay comes in the fact that if a marine has any upgrades, then it will take more than one alien to kill a marine.
An HA with full upgrades will be stronger then one onos, so the onos will need another alien with it. Aliens will therefore learn to move in packs, and this will discourage marines from ramboing! An average marine will be destroyed by 2 skulks, but not one, unless the skulk is a good ambusher.
ATM, Fades are my favourite class, but their middle abilities of blink and metabolism aren't very attack minded, they encourage the hit and run everyone talks about, hence the term super skulk. Either acid rocket becomes stronger, or it's made weaker and becomes a hive 2. I mean, lerks have a long range weapon on one hive, so the fades long range weapon, on 2 hives, can be marginally stronger than that.
The Lerk role as a support class is balanced to perfection, however, it's not used much as umbra isn't that great if it isn't used properly, and with it being aimable, it's hard for a lerk to protect itself aswell as everyone else.
Skulks are funny, they aren't much different to 1.04, but they aren't played as much either, people have a problem being skulk because it's easier to go fade or onos, especially when fade is like a strong skulk anyway. Apart from bite being better than swipe. Swipe should be made ever so slightly stronger, imo.
I'm merely bouncing these ideas off the community. If there are fundamental reason why this couldn't work in practice, I would like to hear them.
Comments
Fade = normal marine (no upgrades)
Skulk = half marine (no upgrades) (i.e 2 skulks will have a fair fight with 1 marine)
Lerk = support class, as it is in 2.0
I think this is a stupid idea.
<b>Skulks</b> :
Marines are able to kill skulks easier if they can actually hit the skulk.
(I have more trouble aiming in NS 2.0 than in 1.04 because of the new elaborate LMG crosshair, the pistol crosshair is a little more adatable as well, HMG, Shotgun, and GL are all fine. [I am a hell of a lot more accurate with the GL now which is cheap <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> ])
I have never seen 2v1 a fair fight, if the Aliens do not attempt to dodge they will be annihilated easily. Usually its like 1 Alien gets the kill by biting from behind while the other one is baiting the bullets.
Marines can actually escape the wrath of the Alien Skulks by jumping and let me tell you guys that getting rid of BunnyHopping accomplished nothing in my view. The Marines have like a 3 foot vertical leap, moreover they are still able to dodge by jumping consecutively after the 1st jump. I don't think this would be so bad if the Skulks' strafe ability was as it was in 1.04. (Maybe its just me, but I think I notice a VERY big difference in the strafe abilities, it seems slower and rough compared to the way it was in 1.04. Though I have not been able to confirm this with anyone else so I guess its just my problem. I never had any trouble killing bunnyhopping marines, whether it was Romano^_^ or just some random pubber.)
I think the addition of the wild wacky way Skulks appear as they climb walls is very smooth and has its own troubles. Sometimes I just stare at the crazy things the Skulk does while trying to get to me, don't even bother shooting its just funny sometimes. I don't know if its meant to be harder to hit or harder to predict where the Skulk plans on going but I think it was a great addition to the dodging arsenal.
Skulk seems considerably weaker out in plain view for the Marine, with the addition of Sensory Cloak it has drastically changed the way Skulks are meant to be played. It feels a lot like Camper-Selection.
<b>Lerk</b> :
Without the feature "bite" the Lerk is significantly more irrelevant. Just as in 1.04 the Lerk is infamous in those damn vents, casting Spores and spiking armor with its deadly Spiking techniques. Umbra seems considerably weaker and shorter in duration. I guess that was needed however, Umbra is and was the number one factor in determining the success of an Alien team.
Marines chew up open Lerks, Lerks are also harder to hit now when they take flight.
<b>Fade</b> :
Moving Acid Rocket has made mines much more effective than they used to be. I think the Fade is the weakest class now, until your 3rd hive and Acid Rocket is re-introduced. Dodging Fades can be done easy depending on how accurate the Fade can swing those claws. Fades hardly ever lose a battle to 1 marine, no matter what the upgrades are. Usually takes 2-3 Marines that can actually hit the Fade.
<b>Onos</b> :
I am still unsure on exactly how Devour works but I have seen Onos swallow me whole in 1 simple gulp. Full health and full armor wasted by 1 run of an Onos. 1 HA will never be able to take down an Onos, depending on the weapon used and if the Onos tries to dodge.(Like it actually can menavuer)
I have seen this many timesbut ; "The only reason I ever die as Onos are my teammates."
Skulks are like zerglings: Cannon fodder.
Onos are like ultralisks: Slow, huge, ****-kickers.
Lerks are like defilers: Little combat ability, but support, area-effect abilities.
Gorges are like drones: But they're fat and cute.
Fades should be like hydralisks: The strong fighter with decent offensive capabilities. The aliens have no real counter to alert marines that have motion tracking, and level 1 or 2 upgrades. Hit and run with a fade only works when you're picking off stragglers.
Skulks are like zerglings: Cannon fodder.
Onos are like ultralisks: Slow, huge, ****-kickers.
Lerks are like defilers: Little combat ability, but support, area-effect abilities.
Gorges are like drones: But they're fat and cute.
Fades should be like hydralisks: The strong fighter with decent offensive capabilities. The aliens have no real counter to alert marines that have motion tracking, and level 1 or 2 upgrades. Hit and run with a fade only works when you're picking off stragglers. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
All aliens are hit and run. They have strong attacks, but none of them has enough health and armour to resist the marine weapons. Even the onos has to flee often (either the normal way, or using redemption).
And no aliens are cannon fodder. If you get killed, you give resources to the enemy. Pick your battles carefully, even as a skulk. High-risk attacks shouls only be done when it helps with an important objective (like defending a hive).
I do agree that the fade is a bit weak. Just an upgraded skulk until you get the third hive. Now, the fade is really good as an upgraded skulk, but 50 res is a bit much if that's all you're getting.
The lerk price is problematic too. Early in the game, the lerk can get resources from the light marines. Once the marines get HA, the lerk's income is drastically reduced. It is still very important for the aliens, but has problems earning back his resource cost. A lerk helps others get kills and res, but can't take much risks itself because it usually only gets resources from towers once HA becomes available for marines.
Fade = normal marine (no upgrades)
Skulk = half marine (no upgrades) (i.e 2 skulks will have a fair fight with 1 marine)
Lerk = support class, as it is in 2.0 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is one <i>huge</i> problem with your idea, if not two. Fades are equal to vanilla marines? 50 res vs. 0 res. Not exactly a good idea.
Skulk worth only half a marine?? HALF?! You have no idea how much rambos would dominate. Flayra himself even strives for a 1 vs. 1 to favor the skulk.
Also, never write off the lerk. It is the <i>most</i> important unit in group assaults.
Lerk is a support class, now more so. Use him as such, he's good at it. Don't spore HA. Remember you have Umbra and Scream, and that these are good things if used properly.
Fade IS an assassin. He blinks, he rips marines, he gets rockets. He takes practice. If you are not getting kills, practice more or don't go fade. This saves you entering a forum on general discussion purely to suggest he needs boosting.
Onos these days is the choice of the professional nub. Zero strategy, and woefully underapplied. On good servers, onos is the battering ram from hell, and while rines are shooting it other units should be moving in - it should not be an onos train waiting for rambos. Unless you KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING, you should be lerking and watching other people successfully apply the onos.
Gorges build things. They are your friend. There should never be a game where you do not go gorge at least once. Keep the gorges safe and your game will go better. If you gorge and cap res nodes or hives, you will get MORE RES in the long run. At the end of the game, those 100 res you hoarded for the past 30 mins with your redeeeming onos don't get you any more kudos or respect or kills. Bilebombs do not kill marines. Make no mistake, gorge is not an easy class - you can waste res by making useless towers, you can put too many in a useless side corridor and thus deny yourself the opportunity to put them in a proper chokepoint. Watch how other gorges do things. Learn.
Skulk - CAN destroy marines - I've seen 1 skulk wipe out three marines and still have health left to chuckle. At two bites for a kill, if you use it as the ambush nightmare it is, then you'll only need to land one hit after the marine figures out whats gone wrong. Don't rush them from the front, and if you hear them coming, find an ambush spot. Skulks are cheap, they are good ways to get yourself more res, and you can scout the enemy base without losing 30 res in the process.
On the marine side -
The Comm is a demigod. If the comm fails, you fail. He builds. He watches. He hands out the toys. Comms listen to your marines prayers. Sometimes they will be right. Comms, play as gorges for a week before contemplating building procedures. If you slap a TF, three turrets, and an RT onto Laser Drilling and in 2 minutes its all gone, its probably because one skulk hid behind the TF. When placing turrets, remember they don't aim up or down very well. This means you put them PAST dents and holes, so that people can't hide in them and bilebomb from safety. Think as a gorge, as 90% of the time it'll be a gorge who's nuking your carefully made outpost.
Do not bite off more than you can chew. Rushing to a double node will not help if you can't hold it. Halflocking a hive will cost you because the aliens will want it badly. Never halfdo a job, because chances are some skulk or gorge will persistently test your defences until he can crack it.
Marines are the doers. You take orders. You build what he buys. You don't see the whole map, you don't buy the rts, and 50% of the time you don't follow orders. Make comments to the comm if you're stuck. Ask for a better gun or say that you can't get into a certain room without more support. Do not whine for HA GL HMG at game start. It takes time to build res, and to get those res you need to follow orders and take/hold rts. Not rambo into the night. If you rambo, the marines get more res, and you lose your weaponry.
Basic strats.
Aliens expand aggressively, consolidate, crush the marines.
Marines expand to an area they can HOLD which usually does NOT mean a double res node. Ideally you hold all RTs as the crow flies to the nearest hive, which you arm up to the eyeballs so that the aliens don't take it. Marines tech up, marines crush the alien expansion.
If you read none of this, consider the following.
Look at 2.0 through a nub's eyes. Don't carry over old info. Play it as a new game. Get comfy with it. Don't look for whats wrong, look at whats right, and use it that way.
You do not see people who buy a screwdriver returning it to the shop because they can't use it to play CDs.
edit - just renaming the comm bit hehe.