Forget That Double Node!

p4l · August 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Give it a shot...</div> I've been finding with Kharaa particularly, the emphasis teams put on grabbing the 2res spots can be used against them. I was on veil today and after marines took the 2res, people were practically weeping about how the end was nigh. What no one seemed to realize was that we had every other res except west outlook or whatever it's called, the one just to the side of marine spawn. Their 4 RTs were nice, but since they spend so much on TFs like marines must, we were able to pretty much lock them into that 2res and their marine spawn. They got a PG but it didn't help since they couldn't get past our WoLs anyways... and it was too early to tech to GL/HA. They f4'd.

So what does this anecdote mean really? Well, let them have it. Depending on the map and your hive, the Kharaa can probably get to the 2res before marines do. But marines almost always go for it, and at least send a scout there who will build it up if it's open. So let them get the 2 res, maybe even grab an RT or 2 on the way there, because you can take those RTs back as the marine team progresses through the map. And the one thing a smart Kharaa team has going for it early, they can grab nodes at light speed compared to the res tick waiting marine commander and his much needed turret farming. This works particularly well on tanith if you don't have the waste handling hive to start, as marines will rush like mad to get the 2res and probably make a half hearted push for waste, which you can repulse. By letting your skulks and perhaps a lerk or two patrol around the res nodes and marine choke points, you can keep in mind exactly where they are going (easier too if you get sensory first!) and soon enough, lock them into their positions. It's only a matter of res... er time before they can't do anything more.

Of course, the bane of this plan is the hungry skulk team. It happens alot, guys don't seem to realize their deaths mean res for the marines. So when 4-6 skulks rush in and die at the turret farm, not even killing it... that will ruin this strategy.

Anyone else trying this? Thoughts?

Necrosis · August 2003

Marines are chronically addicted to capping double res nodes, even if it means crossing the map to do so.

Only the best comms and accurate players can pull this off, and it always costs a lot of res.

Alien players, in the servers I'm on, tend to go to the double nodes for easy kills. For some reasons the marines keep rushing the double node, no matter what. This makes it easy for them to be tied up at marginal res bounty while the aliens cap everything else.

Thus, if/when the marines take the room, while they've killed maybe 20 aliens for about 60 res, we've had every other RT in the map going the entire time. Massive res stockpiles, which means levelling their precious double node is a cakewalk.

IMHO once marines start going for RTs they can *hold* rather than the ones they *want*, then we will have a bigger challenge.

p4l · August 2003

Kharaa Tanith, Caged, Veil wins all came today using this strat again, on 3 different servers no less <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'>

Spazmatic · August 2003

Double node isn't neccessarily worth capping, but do defend it (with skulks). If not, the marines will have a quick position from which to control the entire map (almost every double is at a crossroads), lots of res for the turret cost (they have to turret an offensive base and put a pg anyways), and a solid advantage early on. If you camp it with some skulks, you can turn that advantage to yours by costing the marines res, time, and giving yourself res.

p4l · August 2003

It depends on your teams style I suppose. In our games we preferred to just let them have res, because as marines tend to do they got all active members of their team either there or in the main base, then built and built until they felt it was invincible. By the time they were done making it invincible, a few gorges had already dropped sensory/defense chambers and OCs to prevent them from getting out. Once they realized that, they pretty much had to tech to phase, which took time, in which we capped the rest of the map :-)

If your team isn't ready to go gorge, as so many teams are, then yeah skulk camping with a sensory chamber can be a nice distraction while you perhaps put up a hive or **** multiple res nodes.

Spazmatic · August 2003

The problem is, you're then relying on bad commanders. If you give me the double res, I will have phasegates up before you can blink, and have been capping res near base as well. The double res, most importantly, CUTS OFF ONOS on most maps, more or less, drastically reducing your ability to react to attacks. If you let them have it early, it also greatly boosts the commander's res supply... Given I'm used to winning when aliens are actively denying the double res, I don't see how giving it up without a fight can possibly benefit Khaara.

p4l · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>The problem is, you're then relying on bad commanders. If you give me the double res, I will have phasegates up before you can blink, and have been capping res near base as well. The double res, most importantly, CUTS OFF ONOS on most maps, more or less, drastically reducing your ability to react to attacks. If you let them have it early, it also greatly boosts the commander's res supply... Given I'm used to winning when aliens are actively denying the double res, I don't see how giving it up without a fight can possibly benefit Khaara. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

It's not depending on bad commanders at all. It's depending on *same* commanders, and 9/10 of the comms do go for double res. You yourself said you would go right for it if it was empty. If the aliens let you have double res, and you tech to phase, that's res. Alot of it. And since kharaa have such a big early game capability to grab res, then you can easily be outnumbered in nodes, even taking 2res without a fight. Honestly, even the best comm can't affect certain things. For instance, how do you plan on holding 2res and those other RTs as well as your main base to a dedicated skulk pack? Somewhere, that res has to give, or the manpower does. Either you are keeping your marines together in a pack, grabbing the RTs as you go along, or you have them do a mad rush for the 2res spot. In the first case, you obviously aren't rushing 2res, so the kharaa don't use this strat. In the second case, you've left those RTs behind you. If you play it safe and leave 1 marine guarding the RTs while you electrify them... he's 1 marine. He can't hold off 3-4 skulks of comparable skill level. Not to mention the 30res for electrifying that is going to slow your PGtech/TF in 2res. If you have 2 men guard, then you are going to run out of manpower, and the res nodes and maybe TF you just but down in the 2res will be taken by the skulks.

If you take the 2res early, and hold it while teching to phase but NOT getting a TF, then you will indeed have phase pretty fast. You will also be vulnerable in either 2res or your main, which will fall to skulks and cost you. It's not about the commanders skill, it's about simple manpower. You can't protect everything early, and since generally people seem to worship 2res spots, you can easily let them have it, take out any other RTs they get (which will fall before they can earn back their 20 res, quite possibly!), and plop down your own on probably all but one of the other nodes.

How exactly do you plan on having the manpower and res to patrol the nodes to make sure we don't have them, grab those by marine spawn and *hold* them from the skulks, keep your main base secure, grab the 2res, tech to PG, drop a pair and have them built? Unless you are planning on playing aliens who downloaded NS a week ago, you can't do all that, not on your typical 10v10 MAX server.

Giving up the 2res without a fight is the fight. Letting your enemies have what you don't need while you take what they do. Much like allowing the aliens to take out a TF when you know you've almost completed an HA train, right? Same deal.

Necrosis · August 2003

Just had to comment that I have seen the smackdown from marine teams with a competent comm. Once they had the double node and base secured, res came flooding in.

Then we pushed from RT to RT, without a long trip from base, and the organisation allowed effective use of guns. By midgame we were a big team of welder loving HA, and the slow confident push got us the game.

IMHO the strat swings both ways, and hinges on the competency of Comm and Team.

Spazmatic · August 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>And since kharaa have such a big early game capability to grab res, then you can easily be outnumbered in nodes</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Either you are keeping your marines together in a pack, grabbing the RTs as you go along, or you have them do a mad rush for the 2res spot.</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Okay, first, I play on 6v6-8v8 servers... I tend to avoid anything larger like the bloody plague.

Second, consider an example: Hera. One marine in base with the standard armory, portal, tfac, and two turrets. Four off to Hera Entrance, then Holo. At Holo, if there's no resistance (this is key, as the recommendation was to not defend it), I walk in, plop down a res, and plop down an obs at base. Wait a bit, and research pg. By now, one or two skulks might attack, but unless the aliens actually plan on defending/assaulting holo (avoiding which is the idea, no?), there won't be any serious threat. I drop a pg at each side, then, while 2 'rines move out towards processing. They'll probably die, that's fine, as I now have 3 in holo, 2 reinforcing (and preferably 1-2 dead aliens at least). Drop second res and tfac, then move out those three while the next 2 build 2 turrets at holo. These three are hitting res nodes. If you think, in this period of time (time to drop 4 res, two tfacs, four turrets, obs, 2 pgs, and research to pg, with only 1 portal and armory, no weapons, and minimal medspam) that you've managed to do more than perhaps chew Hera Entrance (actually, I hope you did) and grab maybe 5 res, I'm shocked. You've either gone on mad expansion, in which case I'd've launched an assault long ago, or my marines suck. Really bad.

So, yeah, I'm probably outgunned 5v3 res wise at the moment... However, I've also severed easy access to the other side and you'll have minimal defenses up around your res. The big difference now, however, is rfk. First, I control Hera Entrance (nominally). Second, I control either Archiving res or have a fair bit of control over the other side. Obviously, it's not complete, but more of a choke-ish cut off. Drop a few shotties, move out, and smack a res tower down. Drop an arms lab, begin teching...

The big risk is, of course, not having upgrades. However, given the difficulty of anything larger than a lerk getting around the map, I think it's a reasonable one. There are lots of assumptions, no duh, but there are in any game of NS... When aliens expand like mad, what happens if they shotgun rush? If aliens don't expand like mad, what happens if 'rines do? I'm gambling on a nominally conservative game, which is what I see most often. In that scenario, this puts me in a position to win with less than stellar marines, since Holo is a GREAT launching point, plus gets me 2 res.

However, I prefer aliens to defend the res... Then I can siege it away.

p4l · August 2003

Well Hera is the map with 2res that *least* favors this start, but it still works. I say that because on Hera the 2res is in a spot that I think favors marines a bit, because of it's distance from their spawn as well as the makeup of the room. Also, the 2res cuts off alot MORE res on Hera than it does on other maps. Also, on Hera, I would adjust the strategy just because of the beautiful ambush-ready ceilings in Holo room and say set one ambush there before marines come in. If they still take holo, then avoid it. I've still used this on Hera, with less but still success.

First consideration, the one marine in base thing will be exploited. If aliens get sensory first, SoF will tip them off. DCs first, that carapace will give them what they need to close in. I end alot of games quick like this, even on the hard-to-assault-early Hera. Also, if you are taking Hera entrance first instead of Holo, one of two things is most likely going to happen (And this is how my most recent Hera game played out as well) Either you leave a marine to guard hera entrance until it's electrified, or it goes down. The last game, a marine did cover it, and he was taken down while marines secured Holo, but the comm electrified quickly and the skulks couldn't take it. So, while the marines had taken holo, and put up a TF in processing, 8 skulks went into their main base. They relocated to holo, which we let them, took processing out. It was a little while after that before we had the 2nd hive to take out holo. GG.

I think you're strategy really depends on bad Kharaa. The things you said take alot of time up, time in which the Kharaa team just won't let you expand as you see fit. And 2 turrets in base wouldn't deter me much alone, not to mention with some skulk partners. That main base is quite vulnerable. In the time it takes your boys from Holo to get to main (Because the marines in Hera entrance were killed), that TF will be down and probably the IPs also. Sure, the skulks may fall, but whoops there goes that res. And Obs die VERY fast, so the skulks might get that too if there are 4-5 of them. Also, like I said, Hera is the one example of a map I'm not sure if I would use this on since the vents from Holo to marine spawn are great, and Holo is a more significant choke than most other maps 2res. But it's still viable, depending on the comm. Also consider that you aren't rushing for Holo, like this strat is intended for. I never said every game you should let marines have 2res, but those in which they rush for it. Instead of putting up a grand fight that won't be won as most pub aliens do (I constantly have to remind skulks that if they die only biting a turret once or twice or something, they are just giving the marines 3 res).

Granted your strats are more for low numbers and mine for higher and that may be the reason for the discrepancies. I hate playing low number servers because 9/10 when I'm Kharaa, the marines realize there is a pretty much fool proof strategy for making a 'last stand'... pure turret farming and HA tech. Unless the Kharaa can rush early... well, things get bad. I was playing a 5v5 server where Kharaa were just better players, period. We had 3 hives and 2 res on Veil, should be a win no? We eventually pinned the marines into a narrow strip that included their spawn base, and western outlook. But they figured they would make a last stand and started turret farming like mad. We rushed with onos and fades and would take maybe a TF before the turrets and concentrated HMG fire made us pull out, even with umbra. They actually just got 4HAs, 3HMGs and 1 GL... and literally made a massive turret farm up to our hives. The lag was at about 1000 because the server wasn't too reliable, just because of their turrets... but had that not happened and things crashed, they would have won, sans any skill. At one point we had 5 onos going up against a turret farm with no support. All of us had carapace or regen, and we couldn't take it down completely it was just a wall of turrets. I hate low person games now :-( Also when teams are unever... 5v6 hurts the 5 much more than say 9v10. Naturally stuff like this doesn't happen so much in clan games, as the coordination and experience would stop marines before they could do something like that, or the Kharaa playing clan just didnt' deserve to win. But in a pub you have to actually coordinate on the spot and you naturally suffer for it.

SpecIce · August 2003

Double nodes are DUMB

A. Marines waste too much time getting it set up

B. The Aliens will Be expeting this and waiting for the food to arrive

C. This will Bog you Down soo much Just go there later and seige it from the Aliens A. Hurting them and B getting it for you.

D. There a plenty of other Nodes that you can get that won't cost you so much agony

NOTE: it is funny to for people to tell me that without the double REZ i am gonna lose the game. Also that they spend so much time on two nodes that the aliens come out with 2/3 hives and smash the **** out of it and your left with one Node. GG

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> Watch her goes all there REZ and the TIME they spend defending it and how it is ours BILE BOMBS!!!

captmorgan · August 2003

The only map I feel the dbl nodes are very important to cap right off for the aliens is veil. Hera especially it can be a res gaining and marine waster if instead of capping those nodes right off, some alien just run's to holo initially, drop's a SC or 2 up above the nodes, out of early marine sight, and walla, marines will never get holo without seige or lots of scans/effort. It is more important for the aliens to just deny the dbl nodes to the marines then it is to get them. If you let the marines cap and electrify 2 or 3 other nodes early on, you wasted your effort on those dbl nodes, and probably gave them some good rfk by getting picked off out solo trolling around looking for 1 marine, while finding 2 or 3 together.

remember, those RFK's you got from your oc's that you spammed in the dbl res node room might sure help you go onos quick, but those 3 or 4 rt's the marines got elsewhere and the RFK's they got on your dumber teammates helped their entire team get those upgrades and shotties/hmgs along with HA's that have you redeeming away before you hit a single marine as onos.. Ha's are the worst as alien not as much because of the welding and damage factor, but moreso because on a pub, you almost always have 1 or 2 dumb lerks that still spam gas at HA marines, thus you have added 2 more peices of dead weight you have to carry to win. That weight on your back feel like a ton yet?

Get that weight off your back, let those guys whining about "we gotta get and defend those nodes" do it, and you go off and set up shop where you know the smart comm's will send their troops, away from those dbl nodes. Drop and rt and SC off there, and make those marines think the dbl nodes are a better target..

Stakhanov · August 2003

Whatever you do , never drop a sensory in Cargo Bay on Origin when there are good marines lead by a good comm. After 1-2 marines have been trapped here they will move to Biodome and Furnace , capping many res. Upgraded marine groups can easily fry unupgraded skulks running down the long , wide corridors.
Once you see shotguns it is likely that your starting hive will be sieged.

It is nigh impossible to defend Furnace against shotgunners backed by a TF , phase and obs... they can easily spawnkill skulks , teching faster. Biodome and Ventilations aren't easy to defend either.

Once you're down to one hive the HA train will clear up Cargo Bay , with level 3 armor and HMGs they aren't going to be stopped , even by onos (worthless at 1 hive without decent upgrades)

p4l · August 2003

Hmmm see Veil is the map I specifically feel most strongly about the Aliens letting the marines have double res, for a few reasons...

1) It is closer to the Kharaa dominated portions of the map, meaning they have a LONG treck to get back and forth. You can use that against them until they get PGs, and by the time they do, you can have your hives defended up enough that you don't have to worry about an unexpected rush.
2) It is so very siegable. There are two very easy siege areas right there that will wipe out your nodes. If you take the nodes and use living defense (IE maybe 1 sense and no OCs) then it can be worth it. But then you have to make sure that your skulk/s know what they are doing, or having to leave one there will cost you.
3) Marines LOVE to lockdown erg... that one hive with the long name. I'm an idiot I can't remember. The one on the bottom left of the map screen. If you let them get the 2res, you can often enough get 3 hives, or at the very least 2, by the time they get HA. And 3hive fades mean HA in trouble, if you've got anywheres decent fades.
4) Lastly, while it looks like it's in a great central position, the 2res spot itself doesn't deny any movement. Meaning the TF there isn't going to be a problem until you actually assault 2res. If marines push out from there yes they can lock down a corridor or two, but frankly by the time they are in a position to hold those corridors you could probably get MCs up to hive travel. If not that, you still have direct routes to their home base from all three hives, to keep up the pressure.

captmorgan · August 2003

The main reason I like the dbl nodes on viel is simply because it is out of the way, and tough for marines to own early on due to travel time, so they generally dont go after it. Lets face it, sub-sector is the direction most comm's send their marines early on on that map. (unless of course you start there). I'll go after dbl res nodes that we have a good chance of taking while not giving them the rest of the map. tanith is horrible for aliens going after RR when starting at waste, and 1 or 2 smart marines grab the whole other side of the map while the dumb ones keep going in there tying up large quantites of aliens in there, from overestimating it's importance....

p4l · August 2003

Yeah I guess the reasons I have for staying away are the reasons you have for going for it :-)

I think it works both ways. Then again, I think Veil favors aliens slightly anyways. All three hives are so hard to lockdown, even subsector is easy to keep if you actually try for it. Or let them have sub and take the 2res, that way you can hive measly 2hive noob onos while you lerk ;-)

sej · August 2003

if ur able to get ina position where u slaughter the rines coming to the double res node again andagain, andthus gain res, its worth it.

nopoint attacking adouble res node if marines hold it tho.

p4l · August 2003

sej... whoa dude... space bar. Use it man <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>

Forget That Double Node!

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