Fades... Frankly, They Suck In 2.0
Monkeybonk
Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18859Banned
Join Date: 2003-08-04 Member: 18859Banned
<b>Skulk:</b>
Cost: Free / 2 resources
75 health/20 armor. Fades are marine-sized, and thus the fade is MUCH easier to shoot. Skulks, however, are much more difficult to track and shoot.
For purposes of showing this, we'll double the skulks survivability to 150 health/40 armor.
52 bites drains stamina
~25 seconds to drain stamina with bite.
= ~2 bites/second
75 damage/bite
(75 * 52) = 3900 damage with bite, full stamina drain.
<b>Fade:</b>
Cost: 50 resources.
250 health/100 armor
44 swipes drains stamina
22 seconds to drain stamina with swipe
= 2 swipes/second
80 damage/swipe
(80 * 44) = 3520 damage with swipe, full stamina drain.
<i>Movement Rate</i>
Tested on a corridor near sewer hive in Ns_Caged.
Skulk (Foot): 6.45 seconds.
Skulk (Leap): 2.3 seconds. Required 4 leaps. 4 leaps is most you can perform, but leaves plenty of stamina for combat. Leap also does damage and can be used as an attack.
Fade (Foot): 7.9 seconds.
Fade (Blink): 2.66 seconds. I completely ran out of stamina with blink 3/4 of the way there.
I performed the blink test about 8 times and every time I either got around 2.4 to 2.8 seconds, or MUCH worse (One was even 3.79 because blink stuttered).
Thus we conclude that the fade, although it can take much more damage then a skulk, is incredibly slow, inefficient, and weak in combat. Furthermore, for the price of one fade, I can build a hive as a skulk and have enough resources to go back to skulk and upgrade.
On one final note: The fade makes an incredible amount of noise. Without silence, fades are very easy to hear because they growl incessantly. Only when cloaked or silenced are they quiet. Skulks are much more subtle. Furthermore, skulks can walk on ceilings and hide in small holes, making them much more effective at ambushes.
Fades are weak, they underperform compared to even CHEAPER lifeforms (Acid Spore and Umbra vs. Blink and Metabolize. Which is more useful?), and they are slow to boot. Blink us WORTHLESS for 'hit and run' because you no longer can actually blink out of sight. Instead, you have to RUN there, making a target of yourself the whole way.
My solution:
1) Swipe should do at least 100 damage.
2) Fades need much more armor. Fades should be able to go toe-to-toe with upgraded marines (I think of them as upgraded skulks). Instead, a single fade vs. 3 lvl 1 marines will get mowed down instantly. Carapace and Adreneline are both 'must haves' for a fade, simply because they're so inefficient.
3) Their weapons need to have reduced stamina drain.
People call them 'upgraded super skulks'. I call them a load of crap. They're my favorite alien because they look so badass, but when I compared my kill/death ratio with a vanilla skulk to my kill/death ratio with a vanilla fade... I realized how sad it was.
Cost: Free / 2 resources
75 health/20 armor. Fades are marine-sized, and thus the fade is MUCH easier to shoot. Skulks, however, are much more difficult to track and shoot.
For purposes of showing this, we'll double the skulks survivability to 150 health/40 armor.
52 bites drains stamina
~25 seconds to drain stamina with bite.
= ~2 bites/second
75 damage/bite
(75 * 52) = 3900 damage with bite, full stamina drain.
<b>Fade:</b>
Cost: 50 resources.
250 health/100 armor
44 swipes drains stamina
22 seconds to drain stamina with swipe
= 2 swipes/second
80 damage/swipe
(80 * 44) = 3520 damage with swipe, full stamina drain.
<i>Movement Rate</i>
Tested on a corridor near sewer hive in Ns_Caged.
Skulk (Foot): 6.45 seconds.
Skulk (Leap): 2.3 seconds. Required 4 leaps. 4 leaps is most you can perform, but leaves plenty of stamina for combat. Leap also does damage and can be used as an attack.
Fade (Foot): 7.9 seconds.
Fade (Blink): 2.66 seconds. I completely ran out of stamina with blink 3/4 of the way there.
I performed the blink test about 8 times and every time I either got around 2.4 to 2.8 seconds, or MUCH worse (One was even 3.79 because blink stuttered).
Thus we conclude that the fade, although it can take much more damage then a skulk, is incredibly slow, inefficient, and weak in combat. Furthermore, for the price of one fade, I can build a hive as a skulk and have enough resources to go back to skulk and upgrade.
On one final note: The fade makes an incredible amount of noise. Without silence, fades are very easy to hear because they growl incessantly. Only when cloaked or silenced are they quiet. Skulks are much more subtle. Furthermore, skulks can walk on ceilings and hide in small holes, making them much more effective at ambushes.
Fades are weak, they underperform compared to even CHEAPER lifeforms (Acid Spore and Umbra vs. Blink and Metabolize. Which is more useful?), and they are slow to boot. Blink us WORTHLESS for 'hit and run' because you no longer can actually blink out of sight. Instead, you have to RUN there, making a target of yourself the whole way.
My solution:
1) Swipe should do at least 100 damage.
2) Fades need much more armor. Fades should be able to go toe-to-toe with upgraded marines (I think of them as upgraded skulks). Instead, a single fade vs. 3 lvl 1 marines will get mowed down instantly. Carapace and Adreneline are both 'must haves' for a fade, simply because they're so inefficient.
3) Their weapons need to have reduced stamina drain.
People call them 'upgraded super skulks'. I call them a load of crap. They're my favorite alien because they look so badass, but when I compared my kill/death ratio with a vanilla skulk to my kill/death ratio with a vanilla fade... I realized how sad it was.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
More time? I'm always ALWAYS at the top of the killboard, and I rarely go onos. Even when people are onos, I'm at the top. I think I know what I'm talking about. All the n00bs are going to marines, and I think that's why people are saying the aliens are overpowered, but once the marines get their **** together, I think marines will be dominating the aliens.
Isn't that how a skulk behaves? 3 marines vs. 1 skulk = dead skulk, or the skulk is REALLY LUCKY. Best skulking is take them out from behind or pick off the stragglers slowly, not charge headfirst into them.
Blink is useless.
Worthless. Absolutely. There is no map in this game that is built for these 'hit and run' tactics you're talking about. Am I supposed to blink out of a vent and hit them? Cloaking is worthless because of this great 'name bug' where you can see the aliens name. And since the fade can't hide out of sight (he needs LOS with his target) he's very vulnerable.
I blink out of the vent. Stamina is 3/4 gone. I hack away at one. Stamina is almost completely gone. I try to blink away and get 5 feet and I'm out of stamina. I die.
Or, I'm hiding behind some boxes. I move to get into position (which, because you can't blink like you used to, I need to stand right in the middle of no where, else I waste stamina while my feet are stuck on a box) and the marines shoot at me. I blink up to the marines and they start jumping around all over the place. I swipe around desperately, but they MOVE FASTER then I do. Great. I die.
There is nothing a fade can do that a skulk can't. Acid rocket? Xenocide does 200 damage and is much more effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You can't be hurt while blinking, and you can't dance with marines like in 1.04. It takes more thought to when is the right time to retreat.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong. I've blinked past turrets and they shoot at me the whole way and I end up half dead.
FADES SHOULD BE THE COUNTER TO LEVEL 3 MARINES WITH LEVEL 3 WEAPONS. Instead, they're barely a match for level 1 marines with level 1 weapons. Once they get motion tracking, fades are blown away.
More time? I'm always ALWAYS at the top of the killboard, and I rarely go onos. Even when people are onos, I'm at the top. I think I know what I'm talking about. All the n00bs are going to marines, and I think that's why people are saying the aliens are overpowered, but once the marines get their **** together, I think marines will be dominating the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol²
More time? I'm always ALWAYS at the top of the killboard, and I rarely go onos. Even when people are onos, I'm at the top. I think I know what I'm talking about. All the n00bs are going to marines, and I think that's why people are saying the aliens are overpowered, but once the marines get their **** together, I think marines will be dominating the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol² <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe all you little turds that say 'It's balanced' need to shut the hell up too. You've only had just as long as we have to play it, you can't say it's balanced then. Go kill yourself now.
But Monkeybonk also has some good points - we are talking about an alien that costs 50 res, more than enough to build a hive. Should it really have trouble with 2 or 3 stock marines? If the fade is to become a hit and runner, that is fine; I have tons of fun with the new tactics and I like this change to the fade. But the problem is that it's just not very good at it, as those numbers demonstrate. I think just two changes might help this:
1. Blink stays the same, except now it also does 100% cloak while active. Great for the atmosphere, doesn't represent invincibility, and would make blink worth the energy it costs.
2. Fade base speed is increased slightly, as well as attack speed. Perhaps a slight decrease in attack energy use.
Like I said, if you're going to make the Fade a hit and runner you might as well go all the way. These two changes would make a world of difference to all of us Fade fans out there.
But Monkeybonk also has some good points - we are talking about an alien that costs 50 res, more than enough to build a hive. Should it really have trouble with 2 or 3 stock marines? If the fade is to become a hit and runner, that is fine; I have tons of fun with the new tactics and I like this change to the fade. But the problem is that it's just not very good at it, as those numbers demonstrate. I think just two changes might help this:
1. Blink stays the same, except now it also does 100% cloak while active. Great for the atmosphere, doesn't represent invincibility, and would make blink worth the energy it costs.
2. Fade base speed is increased slightly, as well as attack speed. Perhaps a slight decrease in attack energy use.
Like I said, if you're going to make the Fade a hit and runner you might as well go all the way. These two changes would make a world of difference to all of us Fade fans out there. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen. The fade vanilla footspeed is atrocious. I find myself barely able to keep up with marines. I ALWAYS have to take celerity because I'll get cut down in seconds if they point their guns at me.
However, swipe needs either a much reduced stamina drain and faster rate of attack, or just do more damage. A free skulk can outdamage my 50 res fade? What the hell!
then you get acid rocket, and can counter lvl 3 marines. My only complaint about the fade is that acid rocket takes too much energy.
However, fades ALSO have to deal with the SHOTGUN! For a close-ranged fighter, they sure have a quite obvious counter...
Shotguns pose a problem, but the element of surprise will let you kill the shotgunner before he hits you hard. Against multiple heavy weapons, you're eithe going to need umbra support or other melee aliens to create chaos and spread out the damage.
Knowing how to use blink allows you to use hit-and-run tactics on any map. A skilled fade should never die unless he's ambushed or out of energy.
Lone fades are not the counter to tier-3 marines, nor should they be. They are tremendously useful at any stage of the game when part of a mixed attack force, however.
More time? I'm always ALWAYS at the top of the killboard, and I rarely go onos. Even when people are onos, I'm at the top. I think I know what I'm talking about. All the n00bs are going to marines, and I think that's why people are saying the aliens are overpowered, but once the marines get their **** together, I think marines will be dominating the aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're not that monkeystrike guy are you?
A marine RT costs 22 res, alien RT only 15 res.
woot woot!!!!!!!
The thing that sucks the most is that changing weapons takes forever. (Yes I have fastswitch enabled) Sometimes I blink in and press 1 but nothing happens and I find myself blinking arround again....
I was very dissapointed in the blink without the invisibility too, and i have been killed mid blink also, metabolism is however very usefull (altho again TOO noisy) as it makes fades independant of the hive and DCs for healing.
I am eternally greatful however of the move of acid rocket to hive 3, as in character of the fade it should be primarily a close assault monster, not a pop out acid spammer as people made it :/
As for the top of the table..... well im a lerk, always have been a lerk, altho i hate how they have butchered it, i am now the guy low on the table usually as i sit back and constantly umbra my hive mates, now ive seen a single fade with umbra take out entire bases by himself, now tell me aliens dont need teamwork <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
NS community atm is like.. 4000 members. Unless they all post here, I dont see aynthing big happening, big guy ;-))
<!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
The fade, if you're good with it, is amazing for kills and hit and run. It's an assassin made for hit and run ( look at metabolize and blink ). The problem is, it isn't as efficient a killer as the skulk or lerk in terms of resources. Sure you can become quite talented with it and dominate, but it truly doesn't have that assassin feel.
My suggestion is this: Make the default attack of the fade a sort of poke which poisons the marine and does damage gradually. It can start off doing ~50 damage ( reduced by armor ) and then do 5 damage a second for 10 seconds ( unaffected by armor! ). This will make fades fit their role much better, as they can blink in, hit all the marines, and blink out. This isn't overpowered either, as it won't directly kill an HA or LA.
As for their armor, I think it's fine. You want more? Get carapace and use metabolize.
NS community atm is like.. 4000 members. Unless they all post here, I dont see aynthing big happening, big guy ;-)) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Okay, I'll take your sound, constructive, well thought out advice and come back <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->months later<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
4 days, 4 months. I play 5 or 6 games a day since it was released and play almost exclusively aliens. Sitting around isn't going to make a damn difference.
Then you cant say what is balanced, we play atleast one clanmatch a day + loads of (i hate to say it) public games too, yet we are not allowed to say its balanced or otherwise, ALTHO flayra did say that the games balance is not good as a balanced game is not a fun game, over in the public beta forum.