2.0 Has Some Fundamental Problems..
Tempus
Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12540Members
Join Date: 2003-01-21 Member: 12540Members
<div class="IPBDescription">..and here are some suggestions.</div> Ok, let me propose this formula first:
HA+Shotguns+1 hive = GG
This is just about 100% true, and I will explain why.
In reality, the only challenge the marines face is in actually getting there -- aka getting past the early game. And this is where all of the balance complaints are coming from today. However, if they are able to survive long enough to get HA (not hard), get weapon upgrades (getting cheaper with every proposed 2.01 letter), and get a hive (usually through relocation), then they are unstoppable.
The problem is that at 2 hives the aliens have no significant ranged attacks. This, coupled with the fact that shotties are <i>ridiculously </i>overpowered, means that the only way for an alien to attack the marines plays right into the marines' hands -- the aliens have to engage at close range, and the marines have their shotties, and a few heavies with shotties will stop ANYTHING that gets close. As it is now, the only chance that the aliens have of taking out a heavy is by devouring and redeeming. But, this is soon to be gone.
I don't even bother handing out HMGs anymore, because they are not as effective as shotties, and they cost more. Alien ochambers are also no match for a squad of HAs carrying shotties, as the marines can blast away the chamber in about 3 shots (and sadly the chambers are getting weaker, too).
I think that two changes need to made to start with. A) Fades need to get acid rocket at 2 hives instead of 3 (I don't know at the expense of what), and B) shotguns need to be nerfed some.
Please consider these suggestions. Without these changes, this is a 3 hive game, and if the marines manage to relocate to a hive and get some technology, the aliens will have no chance.
Thank you for reading.
HA+Shotguns+1 hive = GG
This is just about 100% true, and I will explain why.
In reality, the only challenge the marines face is in actually getting there -- aka getting past the early game. And this is where all of the balance complaints are coming from today. However, if they are able to survive long enough to get HA (not hard), get weapon upgrades (getting cheaper with every proposed 2.01 letter), and get a hive (usually through relocation), then they are unstoppable.
The problem is that at 2 hives the aliens have no significant ranged attacks. This, coupled with the fact that shotties are <i>ridiculously </i>overpowered, means that the only way for an alien to attack the marines plays right into the marines' hands -- the aliens have to engage at close range, and the marines have their shotties, and a few heavies with shotties will stop ANYTHING that gets close. As it is now, the only chance that the aliens have of taking out a heavy is by devouring and redeeming. But, this is soon to be gone.
I don't even bother handing out HMGs anymore, because they are not as effective as shotties, and they cost more. Alien ochambers are also no match for a squad of HAs carrying shotties, as the marines can blast away the chamber in about 3 shots (and sadly the chambers are getting weaker, too).
I think that two changes need to made to start with. A) Fades need to get acid rocket at 2 hives instead of 3 (I don't know at the expense of what), and B) shotguns need to be nerfed some.
Please consider these suggestions. Without these changes, this is a 3 hive game, and if the marines manage to relocate to a hive and get some technology, the aliens will have no chance.
Thank you for reading.
Comments
You are complaining about the fact that there is a lack of working strategies against 2 hive lockdowns, which makes the game boring in these instances, and at the moment dragged on for way too long as the marines have very little confidence. I agree.. there should be more ways for the aliens to make a comeback. But if they let the marines have enough resource nodes, and let them into hives - then it was the aliens' fault in the current game structure. Making more working strategies by adjusting abilities/specs/etc. would make games last even longer. So I have mixed feelings on this topic.
But it is not a 3 hive game.
The main point is that both teams have to possess cooperation withing their ranks, or else the games will be one sided. Aliens cannot expect to win against a descent team of cooperating marines if they themselves are not cooperating. Thus you see the single Onos running towards 6 HA with shotguns, or the single fade, or the lerk trying to spore them (the only possible explanation for this would be to blind them maybe?) between spikes. All members of a team have to work together. If there is teamwork, the HA trains can be taken out. On public games, there isn't much teamwork.
Then you come to the point of offense chambers dealing with HA. They are not supposed to deal with HAs. Kharaa aliens deal with Marines most of the time. Ocs are light defense, just like turrets - and both fall to the right attacks. So while you're at it, complain about how short it takes to bilebomb a turret.
Here's a way to stop an HA train with 2 skulks (or just about any unit, even gorges) and one Onos with 2 hives (and yes it does work):
Onos has adrenaline, preferably - if not, then have a movement chamber nearby. When the marines are on a plane (single-levelled terrain), the Onos stomps and immobilizes all of them. The skulks then start working on each HA. The Onos should know how long Stomp lasts, and 1 second before that, stomp again. Before long you have a dead heavy armor train, despite petty attempts to spam medpacks (which are not only a drain of res, but are useless without armor). The key here is to catch the HA train off-guard, and to have at least one Onos.
Now, if you combine the alien team with the right classes of aliens (and not pubbers who are greedy and just evolve into fade and onos), you'll see that they do stand a chance.
First it was the aliens dominating and being overpowered, now it is the marines. Learn to work together and you'll see that you are dreaming all of this up.
Use quick attacks on them, such as blink and leap, devour, unbra, most hive 2 abilites will do wonders here.
Even at three hives I find that the only effective way of taking out HA is stomp/devour (I've never used redemption, I prefer silence and sensory chambers to finish my meal). I'm trying to avoid making suggestions, but I would like to see bilebomb do damage to HA, to make up for the fact that spores no longer work. It sort of makes sense too.
Games start with a dominating alien earlygame. Midgame is the battle for resources, endgame is the well tooled up marines going in to level the last hive. If you let the aliens get dug in early, you get pwned. This is why we see marines complaining about the cheaper cost of alien structures. Marines do not expect the aliens to dig in so fast.
Late game, the aliens complain about 20-30 minute endgames because the marines are dug in with HA and GL. They log into the forum and go on about how GL is so flawed and how its so hard to Onos rush a base.
In BOTH these cases the problem is with the players, who have not grasped the concepts of NS. Onos do not finish the game - skulk bombs and team cooperation do. Turret farms and camping in the base do not win the marine game - organised consolidation and res denial do.
The marines need better Comms, something which is not helped by the missing pieces of the manual (at least you can learn very quickly ingame that fades don't bilebomb anymore - whereas you can't really learn about electrifying things till someone tells you or you see it). Good comms can win a match - I've seen it. Bad comms, regardless of their men, with 99 percent of the time KILL a marine team. This is not helped by marine players jumping on comms like rabid voles as soon as there's a hint of alien resistance.
In short - there are no fundamental problems, not at this stage. In a MONTH or two, when people who can't cope have either left or adapted, THEN we will see the true balance issues. Right now, a smart alien team will massacre marines, and a smart marine team will massacre aliens. IMHO thats game balance, and it don't need fixing.
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Um, not. Sorry, that is not how it should be.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Games start with a dominating alien earlygame. Midgame is the battle for resources, endgame is the well tooled up marines going in to level the last hive.
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So what you are implying is that the aliens need to win early or not at all. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
I see games where the aliens dominate the res game and still lose, simply because they do not have the 3rd hive and consequently cannot do anything against HA+Shotgun. As I said in the original post, the marines simply need to survive long enough, and then, after spending all that they need to on armories, arms labs, protolabs, upgrades, etc., can dedicate <b>all </b>of their incoming res to HA+Shotgun+Welder. 35 res a pop for a nearly indestructible killing machine that the aliens can only engage at close range. Compare that the aliens, who need to spend 50 res (+chamber upgrades) for a fade that can do almost nothing against heavies or turrets, or 100 (+chamber upgrades) for an onos that will not survive 4 shotgun blasts.
No, there is a balance issue here, and it is not in the aliens favor.
My first game, I was all Amazed by how 2.0 was, I loved it to death, my second game I hated 2.0, I was devoured about 12 times in a row and I was getting so fed up with it! Then I got more use to game play, started to play different ways and now I really love 2.0 and the new 2.01b makes the game even better.
The only thing I have hated in 2.0 from day one is the SG, I hated how an ONOS or a hive gan go down in seconds, but now I think its needed to be this strong, so the Onos can be stopped! The only problem I have is that its still too powerful vs structures. Once the SG is fixed to be less powerful vs structures, NS 2.0 will be perfect too me!
The new Umbra works much better than the 2.0 umbra and alot of the changes are better now!
Flayra did a freaking awesome job and I want to shake his hand for all the hard work hes done!
Wither you like Natural Selection or not, you should be thankful to Flayra for everything hes done!
HA+Shotguns+1 hive = GG
This is just about 100% true, and I will explain why.
In reality, the only challenge the marines face is in actually getting there -- aka getting past the early game. And this is where all of the balance complaints are coming from today. However, if they are able to survive long enough to get HA (not hard), get weapon upgrades (getting cheaper with every proposed 2.01 letter), and get a hive (usually through relocation), then they are unstoppable.
The problem is that at 2 hives the aliens have no significant ranged attacks. This, coupled with the fact that shotties are <i>ridiculously </i>overpowered, means that the only way for an alien to attack the marines plays right into the marines' hands -- the aliens have to engage at close range, and the marines have their shotties, and a few heavies with shotties will stop ANYTHING that gets close. As it is now, the only chance that the aliens have of taking out a heavy is by devouring and redeeming. But, this is soon to be gone.
I don't even bother handing out HMGs anymore, because they are not as effective as shotties, and they cost more. Alien ochambers are also no match for a squad of HAs carrying shotties, as the marines can blast away the chamber in about 3 shots (and sadly the chambers are getting weaker, too).
I think that two changes need to made to start with. A) Fades need to get acid rocket at 2 hives instead of 3 (I don't know at the expense of what), and B) shotguns need to be nerfed some.
Please consider these suggestions. Without these changes, this is a 3 hive game, and if the marines manage to relocate to a hive and get some technology, the aliens will have no chance.
Thank you for reading. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow, shouldn't this go in the S and I forum....oh that is right, that forum is closed....my bad, never mind you, you are special, you should post this hear, and get your feelings out in the open....
Yes I am flamming, cause I come to these boards to see things that make sense, that are about NS, not about people that can't read!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wonder what got under my skin today....I don't know, 2nd post and it is a flame of someone.
Really I am a nice guy, just for christ sake, can someone please start locking these and or deleting them, maybe then someone will get the point that has been made by locking the S and I forum....but god forbid people acutually fargin read.
HA + Welder + 1 Hive = GG.
HA is gonna kill the one hive no matter what. If the marines hav enough res to afford an HA train, and you one hive, its all over.