EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--CommunistWithAGun+Aug 2 2003, 02:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Aug 2 2003, 02:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--xioutlawix+Aug 2 2003, 10:54 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (xioutlawix @ Aug 2 2003, 10:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unfortunately the main mentality when trying to take the marines in their last-stand turret farmed base seems to be "we've got 3 hives, all our alien classes should be godly, we should be able to just run in there and take out all the turrets, by ourselves if need be, a-la 1.04".
I play in a clan, maybe we're more organized than most pubbers. But at that end game, when we actually speak amongst our teammates, delegate roles and classes, we get the job done, and quite effectively. There's not one gorge running in and getting blasted by turrets, there's one gorge taking openings to launch a few bilebombs, but staying behind the onos who's soaking damage, who's being covered by the pair of fades from the other entrance to the marine start, who're being umbra'd by the lerks from both sides.
To repeat what was previously said by our oh-so-wise admin, gone are the days of solo-onosing in their base. As much as you'd like to say your 1.04 mentality isn't present, it is. When you break it, you can offer the rest of us some challenge, if not, you'll just be another pubber to smash. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> But thats what the marines do, so why not? Figures you like turrets, you never play pub. Go on a pub make sure your on bast. And tell me to bilebomb 40 turrets in atmos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, that's what I did as comm and based my opinion on <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Relocation +turret farms can be a pain in the rear-end
OK, but let's look back. We started out with "turret farming is unstoppable", and have now arrived at "late-game turret farming on certain maps under certain conditions can be very drawn out and hard to break".
Quite some progress, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think I have a very good point when I say why should the aliens be more powerful with 3 hives when the marines are at the top of their tech? There is SUPPOSED to be equality. Now if the aliens can get out of a 1.04 mindset and gain new strats to take over top tech marines, then the aliens won't be overthrown by the marines when they both are at their highest tech.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 2 2003, 02:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 2 2003, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, but let's look back. We started out with "turret farming is unstoppable", and have now arrived at "late-game turret farming on certain maps under certain conditions can be very drawn out and hard to break".
Quite some progress, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well it is better than:
User 1: I hate teh turrent farms
User 2: You suck and don't know enough about 2.0 to comment
USer 3: Random spam
User 4: *Flames either user 1 or 2*
User 1: STYF n00bie (users 2 and 4)
etc.
And at least it is progress rather than beating the same horse incessantly.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 2 2003, 02:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 2 2003, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, but let's look back. We started out with "turret farming is unstoppable", and have now arrived at "late-game turret farming on certain maps under certain conditions can be very drawn out and hard to break".
Quite some progress, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Agreed, I'll go play some NS now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 2 2003, 02:40 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 2 2003, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> OK, but let's look back. We started out with "turret farming is unstoppable", and have now arrived at "late-game turret farming on certain maps under certain conditions can be very drawn out and hard to break".
Quite some progress, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wasn't that what I said originally? *grin*
With no disrespect to the PT's/Vets/Devs etc, what I believe happened is fairly simple. I remember reading in the BETA forum just before it was closed that HMG rushes was the norm (just before HMG damage became piercing) and that the Arms Lab was seldom even built. Now, from 1.04 you really need the Arms Lab, so comms who are used to 1.04 will build these and now turrets and marines have more health and do more damage than what was the norm under playtests.
As for requiring teamwork.... needing ten times the teamwork used to get you to the end game to actually end the game sets a bad premise. And as for building towers near the enemy base, sieges was present at every alien win that took an hour or two to break through, not to mention the tower limits makes having DC's close though if you've used them just around the bend.
As for the lerk, since its role is now purely supportive, why not make them live longer? And I really miss the old timer on the umbra, you barely have time to shoot something else before you have to switch back and umbra again.
Regarding mixed troops. to some extent I agree, but aliens move at massively different speeds, several of them needs to be in melee distance. Having 5+ people coordinate an attack like this on a pub is going to be very hard, because we're not talking about one person controling all the units, but rather a bunch of units, some of which will loose sight of his teammates when attacking, who are supposed to maintain cohesiveness. That's not an easy feat compared to the slower-moving marines who all have distance-based weapons.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now, from 1.04 you really need the Arms Lab, so comms who are used to 1.04 will build these and now turrets and marines have more health and do more damage than what was the norm under playtests.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a brilliant point and goes straight back to something I said earlier:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the versions change often things that previously weren't a worry suddenly become them. This happens with all beta testing really. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you honestly believe the PTs/Vets never ever used an arms lab? Even in pub games with crappy players I've still seen a big turret farm eventually go down to bile bomb and coordinated aliens. Regardless of what you can say about the final changes in beta, what they're saying is still true now.
Anyway, it's pretty obvious to me that 90% of drawn out games are a direct result of turret farms. Once pub aliens get the whole teamwork thing through their skulls, turret farms will no longer be an issue(I realize you do not understand this because you've never been on a good coordinated alien team when the mariens are turtling, but it is very possible). Once turret farms aren't a problem, drawn out games will effectively cease.
I think the drawn out games are actually extremely good for the development of alien tactics. It's a fantastic thing that the game will not end until aliens make use of some teamwork, and I'll tell you why: it essentially requires aliens to eventually figure out these tactics when they reach that point in the game. If it were possible to solo turret farms eventually like in 1.04, nobody would bother to learn new ideas. Now that it's actually required that aliens make use of some good strategies to complete these long games, it shouldn't be too long before they become common knowledge and they happen more easily. The more people understand the concept behind a strategy like bile bombing and guarding the gorges, the faster it will happen and the easier it will be to coordinate.
Give it time. The more people actually here about these sort of strategies, the easier it will be to do them.
Personally, I'm tired of people making -pointless- posts to simply say "well you know nothing, just wait." If people are lacking some knowledge that th PT/Vets have, TELL US WHAT THAT IS, TELL US YOUR KNOWLEDGE!!!!!!!!! People are making legitimate complaints and they are not being told what knowledge they lack. They say, "we tried X for hours and it doesn't work" or "it's almost impossible to pull off X with any consistency in pubs" and the response is "well X works, you just suck, and you'll see that someday." Those are not useful responses! If the PT/Vets know how to play 2.0 so well then why aren't they telling all of these people what they're doing wrong? Why are they simply telling people to do things that they already have been trying and then claiming that they need to "get out of the 1.04 mindset"? It makes no sense plz.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think the drawn out games are actually extremely good for the development of alien tactics. It's a fantastic thing that the game will not end until aliens make use of some teamwork<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, it's alot easier to just think "ok we won" and leave the game. That's what alot of us do, cuz spending 1-2 hours on one section of a game is rediculous. Pub players always take the easy way out. Most of the turtle games are ended by an admin or because of people leaving.
Tonzak, they've told you what works and exactly how to do it. People are just immediately dismissing it as nonfunctional so they can continue to complain about balance. That's their problem, not ours.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, it's alot easier to just think "ok we won" and leave the game. That's what alot of us do, cuz spending 1-2 hours on one section of a game is rediculous. Pub players always take the easy way out. Most of the turtle games are ended by an admin or because of people leaving.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Occasionally, but I rarely see that happen. People want to win the game they've put so much work into, and I certainly don't find it very satisfying to spend an hour trying to win the game and just quitting because we have the upper hand already.
well, my take is that the game still revolves around triggers too much, the aliens need their hives and the marines need their 3rd lv weapons. the bad news for the aliens is that they need that third hive far more than they did because until then they wont really have ranged weapons and will be relying on skulk rushes to remove anyone that appears. The good news for the aliens is that they seem to win most of the encounters with marines. The entire movement on the walls thing allows them to do some trixy things. The shotgun i think is about where it needs to be, but the fade isnt. I mean in my experience they get killed pretty fast, even against smgs. Of course then theirs the gorgies, whom apparently have formed little coallitions of the things and run up to marines heal spraying all the way, so even as they heal faster than the marines can shoot at them they are healing the marines to death, its very convenient.
Cloakings got a little out of hand, its hard to go anywhere as a marine without being attacked by some monster that you couldnt see. I dont mind if it was once and awhile but gorgies put these chambers up everywhere.
Games last really long and the everything seems much more balanced... but I havent seen a comeback yet... its a bit unforgiving, once you start to loose its a slow fall....and hard to recover from.
But all in all Im happy <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I think Natural Selection is very good. I played both sides and not one race dominated. It was also my first time comm-ing, and yes, turret farms are extremely powerful. But I love the mod.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I havent seen a comeback yet... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I joined a game late, and the 'rines were pinned in by OC/DC/SC WoLs, and alien third hive was going up. They had 2 res, since the blockades on one side were further back, and oni were slowly whittling down their turret farm. Comm quit. I grabbed the chair, and researched jetpacks. We held off long enough for me to equi an oni killing duo with shotguns and jetpacks, which stopped the initial threat. They got by through a vent behind enemy lines and, with the help of some ammo spam, wiped out 4 rcs before they were caught and killed. Meanwhile, I upgraded to siege and we broke out, capping 2 res nodes and hunkering down. In the end, after some back and forths and 6 hive kills, we finally won with a 6 siege salute guarded by a heavy armor train.
That was a comeback. Sadly, it's the only marine comeback I've seen, much less commed, so far.
Why can the marines build all the turrets their res allows, when the aliens only can build 8 OC's per area? I really think this this should be the same for both teams.
<!--QuoteBegin--Aezay+Aug 2 2003, 05:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Aezay @ Aug 2 2003, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why can the marines build all the turrets their res allows, when the aliens only can build 8 per area? I really this this should be the same for both teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I couldn't agree more, i'm tired of seeing 6 seiges and 15 turrets spread across holoroom supported by 3 electrified TFs on ns_hera. I'm all for limiting turrets per area, not nesessarily 8, but at least some sort of limit! 12-14 even! I've seen turret farms from some comms that not even 5 or 6 onos' with charge couldn't take down (especially since most like to get redemption as an onos), and kill/redeem gorges instantly.
I understand that now people are turret farming because they want to keep the onos at bay, but without some sort of limitation they stretch out games for hours for little reason.
On the other hard, that res could've supported a lv3 wep/armor HA train with hmg/shottys so it's their loss <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 05:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 05:04 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Tonzak, they've told you what works and exactly how to do it. People are just immediately dismissing it as nonfunctional so they can continue to complain about balance. That's their problem, not ours.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, it's alot easier to just think "ok we won" and leave the game. That's what alot of us do, cuz spending 1-2 hours on one section of a game is rediculous. Pub players always take the easy way out. Most of the turtle games are ended by an admin or because of people leaving.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Occasionally, but I rarely see that happen. People want to win the game they've put so much work into, and I certainly don't find it very satisfying to spend an hour trying to win the game and just quitting because we have the upper hand already. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tonzak, they've told you what works and exactly how to do it. People are just immediately dismissing it as nonfunctional so they can continue to complain about balance. That's their problem, not ours.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People said they tried those things, and what is the response? To not believe them? On what basis? So we have either a) tell them to shut up or b) assume they are lying? That's hardly a productive discussion.
Well a lot of you say use team work and protect your gorges. I tried it and it wasnt very sucessfull. I got onos with carpace and a gorge was behind me and we tried to get some bb of while i distract the marines. Guess what. Me rounds corner to marine base 2 rines shoot 4 nades each at me. after the 2 nade detonated on my armor the gorge died of blast radius without even making it around the corner to get a look at the turret farm and a bystanding lerk died too due to a misplaced nade. The turret farm/ nade combo wasted me in about 2.75 secs and none of us got a shot of. So much for teamwork in a endgame situation. In a rush that involves drawing fire and protecting gorges you need a tank unit that can suffer massive punishment before going down. In 2.0 the aliens have no more tank unit. Fades are crap and need to be protected themself and onos die easily to some hmgs or gls. Besides those lifeforms show up late in game and in low numbers due to high res cost when marines already have lots of HA guys. Gone the day when 4 fades and an onos charged the marine base. Now seeing fades is rare and most of the time your team will not have more than 1-2 onos. (Except in those drawn out endgames) Bottom line: Turrets grant the marine all the time they need to tech to HA since they are facing only skulks and the occasional lerk/gorges. If they are protected by Marines every assault the aliens could try early on will fail. Try to take Holoroom once a TF and around 10 Turrets are in there. Even if you manage 3 or 4 skulks (ad thats about all you can afford early on) to rush together, the turrets and the electrified TF will make short work of you not considering bystanding marines. Fades bile bomb and onos work against medium sized turret farms but marines arent noobs anymore and protect their res towers in a turret farm/man power combo. Once marines figure out that all you need to do to win is to grap the map double res point and an additional res, secure them, then tech to HA and waste the aliens with HA trains it will be very tough for the khaara.
i have to agree fades are crap now, i rarely see a fade now on, their ranged attack comes in too late to be of any use what so ever because of all the upgrades the rines have already and they easily die to hmgs even if they have redemption, most of the time they die even before they come close to attacking a rine. altough i havnt used much blinking in such cases...but at the same time i think the lerk is strong enough now to allow for a weak fade...
PulseTo create, to create and escape.Join Date: 2002-08-29Member: 1248Members, Constellation
edited August 2003
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->most of the time they die even before they come close to attacking a rine. altough i havnt used much blinking in such cases<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Perhaps those two things are connected.... Ya think? nah, I'm just messing with ya, blink was just thrown in there for kicks.
2.0 is alot of fun, better than 1.04. Concerns I have:
-lame onos tactics: redemption plus devour equals onos going around eating one marine at a time but never being able to die -onos die too easily without redemption. They just seem to fall alot faster than in 1.04. -related to onos dieing quickly, is the return of turret farms. An onos should last longer than 2 seconds in even the biggest farm. -Sensory is the new "must have" first chamber? Might change with time, but ive been seeing alot of this lately. -about half the alien team saves up for onos from the start of the game. -fades need more offensive power. Metabolize is useless. the new blink is awesome though. -3 hour games.
Im sure some things will change as people get used to the game, but things like the onos devour/redeem tactic is silly and gets boring.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 06:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Man, I wish I had seen the 2.0 FAQ earlier and I wouldn't have had to waste so much energy arguing. Straight from Flayra:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The aliens are too strong now! You nerfed the jetpack! Shotties are over-powered! (etc.)</b> We've had a over 100 very astute and very skilled people that have been playing 2.0 for over three months. Please don't post ANY balance feedback for a couple weeks, as it's just too new for you guys to judge. Balance will not be flip-flopping quickly after release, like in 1.0x. Please post other feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No more balance complaints, please. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not a complain, we simply to discussing turret farms. Which is an issue right now and following your strategy doesnt work either, so if that's what you did. We have a problem
<!--QuoteBegin--bigjangin+Aug 3 2003, 06:47 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (bigjangin @ Aug 3 2003, 06:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> -Sensory is the new "must have" first chamber? Might change with time, but ive been seeing alot of this lately. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The reason sensory is the new must have chamber lies in its two new abilites.
1) It negates the most overpowered part of the marines, namely motion tracking aka autoaim. (I really feel that MT should've been on the overhead map only and especially with the new minimap.) 2) It grants the alien the same overpowered ability, albeit slightly less overpowered since most aliens still needs to walk up to the marine to deal damage, and it only covers a short range. 3) The cloaking effect itself is also highly desireable due to the fact that without having the comm scan ahead, aliens always get the first bite free and marines don't know what you've put up and may just walk past it. (the last does not apply to clan matches)
<!--QuoteBegin--Zek+Aug 2 2003, 06:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Aug 2 2003, 06:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Man, I wish I had seen the 2.0 FAQ earlier and I wouldn't have had to waste so much energy arguing. Straight from Flayra:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The aliens are too strong now! You nerfed the jetpack! Shotties are over-powered! (etc.)</b> We've had a over 100 very astute and very skilled people that have been playing 2.0 for over three months. Please don't post ANY balance feedback for a couple weeks, as it's just too new for you guys to judge. Balance will not be flip-flopping quickly after release, like in 1.0x. Please post other feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No more balance complaints, please. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll address this one time and hopefully you'll go away unless you have something of value to add. This is from a slightly older post by MonsieurEvil:
Lately, the forums have been getting a little, well, snooty. People have tended to reply a bit more condescendingly, or perhaps treat new players with less respect then they are due. There's also been a tendency to try and moderate threads by people who aren't mods. And there've been too many flamewars, by NS forum standards.
<b>This needs to be stopped pronto.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll reiterate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's also been a tendency to try and moderate threads by people who aren't mods.
<b>This needs to be stopped pronto.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I play in a clan, maybe we're more organized than most pubbers. But at that end game, when we actually speak amongst our teammates, delegate roles and classes, we get the job done, and quite effectively.
There's not one gorge running in and getting blasted by turrets, there's one gorge taking openings to launch a few bilebombs, but staying behind the onos who's soaking damage, who's being covered by the pair of fades from the other entrance to the marine start, who're being umbra'd by the lerks from both sides.
To repeat what was previously said by our oh-so-wise admin, gone are the days of solo-onosing in their base. As much as you'd like to say your 1.04 mentality isn't present, it is. When you break it, you can offer the rest of us some challenge, if not, you'll just be another pubber to smash. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But thats what the marines do, so why not? Figures you like turrets, you never play pub. Go on a pub make sure your on bast. And tell me to bilebomb 40 turrets in atmos. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, that's what I did as comm and based my opinion on <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> Relocation +turret farms can be a pain in the rear-end
Quite some progress, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Quite some progress, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hear hear!
Quite some progress, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well it is better than:
User 1: I hate teh turrent farms
User 2: You suck and don't know enough about 2.0 to comment
USer 3: Random spam
User 4: *Flames either user 1 or 2*
User 1: STYF n00bie (users 2 and 4)
etc.
And at least it is progress rather than beating the same horse incessantly.
Quite some progress, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Agreed, I'll go play some NS now <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Quite some progress, eh? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't that what I said originally? *grin*
With no disrespect to the PT's/Vets/Devs etc, what I believe happened is fairly simple. I remember reading in the BETA forum just before it was closed that HMG rushes was the norm (just before HMG damage became piercing) and that the Arms Lab was seldom even built. Now, from 1.04 you really need the Arms Lab, so comms who are used to 1.04 will build these and now turrets and marines have more health and do more damage than what was the norm under playtests.
As for requiring teamwork.... needing ten times the teamwork used to get you to the end game to actually end the game sets a bad premise. And as for building towers near the enemy base, sieges was present at every alien win that took an hour or two to break through, not to mention the tower limits makes having DC's close though if you've used them just around the bend.
As for the lerk, since its role is now purely supportive, why not make them live longer? And I really miss the old timer on the umbra, you barely have time to shoot something else before you have to switch back and umbra again.
Regarding mixed troops. to some extent I agree, but aliens move at massively different speeds, several of them needs to be in melee distance. Having 5+ people coordinate an attack like this on a pub is going to be very hard, because we're not talking about one person controling all the units, but rather a bunch of units, some of which will loose sight of his teammates when attacking, who are supposed to maintain cohesiveness. That's not an easy feat compared to the slower-moving marines who all have distance-based weapons.
This is a brilliant point and goes straight back to something I said earlier:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When the versions change often things that previously weren't a worry suddenly become them. This happens with all beta testing really. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
:/
Anyway, it's pretty obvious to me that 90% of drawn out games are a direct result of turret farms. Once pub aliens get the whole teamwork thing through their skulls, turret farms will no longer be an issue(I realize you do not understand this because you've never been on a good coordinated alien team when the mariens are turtling, but it is very possible). Once turret farms aren't a problem, drawn out games will effectively cease.
I think the drawn out games are actually extremely good for the development of alien tactics. It's a fantastic thing that the game will not end until aliens make use of some teamwork, and I'll tell you why: it essentially requires aliens to eventually figure out these tactics when they reach that point in the game. If it were possible to solo turret farms eventually like in 1.04, nobody would bother to learn new ideas. Now that it's actually required that aliens make use of some good strategies to complete these long games, it shouldn't be too long before they become common knowledge and they happen more easily. The more people understand the concept behind a strategy like bile bombing and guarding the gorges, the faster it will happen and the easier it will be to coordinate.
Give it time. The more people actually here about these sort of strategies, the easier it will be to do them.
Actually, it's alot easier to just think "ok we won" and leave the game. That's what alot of us do, cuz spending 1-2 hours on one section of a game is rediculous. Pub players always take the easy way out. Most of the turtle games are ended by an admin or because of people leaving.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, it's alot easier to just think "ok we won" and leave the game. That's what alot of us do, cuz spending 1-2 hours on one section of a game is rediculous. Pub players always take the easy way out. Most of the turtle games are ended by an admin or because of people leaving.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Occasionally, but I rarely see that happen. People want to win the game they've put so much work into, and I certainly don't find it very satisfying to spend an hour trying to win the game and just quitting because we have the upper hand already.
Cloakings got a little out of hand, its hard to go anywhere as a marine without being attacked by some monster that you couldnt see. I dont mind if it was once and awhile but gorgies put these chambers up everywhere.
But all in all Im happy <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
But I love the mod.
I joined a game late, and the 'rines were pinned in by OC/DC/SC WoLs, and alien third hive was going up. They had 2 res, since the blockades on one side were further back, and oni were slowly whittling down their turret farm. Comm quit. I grabbed the chair, and researched jetpacks. We held off long enough for me to equi an oni killing duo with shotguns and jetpacks, which stopped the initial threat. They got by through a vent behind enemy lines and, with the help of some ammo spam, wiped out 4 rcs before they were caught and killed. Meanwhile, I upgraded to siege and we broke out, capping 2 res nodes and hunkering down. In the end, after some back and forths and 6 hive kills, we finally won with a 6 siege salute guarded by a heavy armor train.
That was a comeback. Sadly, it's the only marine comeback I've seen, much less commed, so far.
I really think this this should be the same for both teams.
I really this this should be the same for both teams.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I couldn't agree more, i'm tired of seeing 6 seiges and 15 turrets spread across holoroom supported by 3 electrified TFs on ns_hera. I'm all for limiting turrets per area, not nesessarily 8, but at least some sort of limit! 12-14 even! I've seen turret farms from some comms that not even 5 or 6 onos' with charge couldn't take down (especially since most like to get redemption as an onos), and kill/redeem gorges instantly.
I understand that now people are turret farming because they want to keep the onos at bay, but without some sort of limitation they stretch out games for hours for little reason.
On the other hard, that res could've supported a lv3 wep/armor HA train with hmg/shottys so it's their loss <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::siege::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/siege.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='siege.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo--> + <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'><!--endemo--> = death.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, it's alot easier to just think "ok we won" and leave the game. That's what alot of us do, cuz spending 1-2 hours on one section of a game is rediculous. Pub players always take the easy way out. Most of the turtle games are ended by an admin or because of people leaving.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Occasionally, but I rarely see that happen. People want to win the game they've put so much work into, and I certainly don't find it very satisfying to spend an hour trying to win the game and just quitting because we have the upper hand already. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Tonzak, they've told you what works and exactly how to do it. People are just immediately dismissing it as nonfunctional so they can continue to complain about balance. That's their problem, not ours.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People said they tried those things, and what is the response? To not believe them? On what basis? So we have either a) tell them to shut up or b) assume they are lying? That's hardly a productive discussion.
Concerns I have:
-lame onos tactics: redemption plus devour equals onos going around eating one marine at a time but never being able to die
-onos die too easily without redemption. They just seem to fall alot faster than in 1.04.
-related to onos dieing quickly, is the return of turret farms. An onos should last longer than 2 seconds in even the biggest farm.
-Sensory is the new "must have" first chamber? Might change with time, but ive been seeing alot of this lately.
-about half the alien team saves up for onos from the start of the game.
-fades need more offensive power. Metabolize is useless. the new blink is awesome though.
-3 hour games.
Im sure some things will change as people get used to the game, but things like the onos devour/redeem tactic is silly and gets boring.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The aliens are too strong now! You nerfed the jetpack! Shotties are over-powered! (etc.)</b>
We've had a over 100 very astute and very skilled people that have been playing 2.0 for over three months. Please don't post ANY balance feedback for a couple weeks, as it's just too new for you guys to judge. Balance will not be flip-flopping quickly after release, like in 1.0x. Please post other feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No more balance complaints, please. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not a complain, we simply to discussing turret farms. Which is an issue right now and following your strategy doesnt work either, so if that's what you did. We have a problem
The reason sensory is the new must have chamber lies in its two new abilites.
1) It negates the most overpowered part of the marines, namely motion tracking aka autoaim. (I really feel that MT should've been on the overhead map only and especially with the new minimap.)
2) It grants the alien the same overpowered ability, albeit slightly less overpowered since most aliens still needs to walk up to the marine to deal damage, and it only covers a short range.
3) The cloaking effect itself is also highly desireable due to the fact that without having the comm scan ahead, aliens always get the first bite free and marines don't know what you've put up and may just walk past it. (the last does not apply to clan matches)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>The aliens are too strong now! You nerfed the jetpack! Shotties are over-powered! (etc.)</b>
We've had a over 100 very astute and very skilled people that have been playing 2.0 for over three months. Please don't post ANY balance feedback for a couple weeks, as it's just too new for you guys to judge. Balance will not be flip-flopping quickly after release, like in 1.0x. Please post other feedback though.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No more balance complaints, please. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll address this one time and hopefully you'll go away unless you have something of value to add. This is from a slightly older post by MonsieurEvil:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Heya NS fans,
Lately, the forums have been getting a little, well, snooty. People have tended to reply a bit more condescendingly, or perhaps treat new players with less respect then they are due. There's also been a tendency to try and moderate threads by people who aren't mods. And there've been too many flamewars, by NS forum standards.
<b>This needs to be stopped pronto.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'll reiterate.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There's also been a tendency to try and moderate threads by people who aren't mods.
<b>This needs to be stopped pronto.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->