<!--QuoteBegin--RpTheHotrod+Aug 2 2003, 08:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RpTheHotrod @ Aug 2 2003, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We've used LMGs....we've used HMGs...we've used Shotguns.... so far, and I've counted, I've only seen 3 Onos out of 134 not redeem away out of a group of 3 or 4 marines filling the onos ful of lead.
You're "answer" isn't the answer <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You, sir, must be a genius.
Nobody else would've managed to go through a testing process including enough Oni to form an objective opinion within the 36 hours you had the game.
[/sarcasm]
It's easy: If the enemy relies on Oni, equip two marines with JP and shottie, and let them guard the rest. Even <i>if</i> the Onos redeems, he's still gone for now.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 2 2003, 04:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 2 2003, 04:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--RpTheHotrod+Aug 2 2003, 08:56 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RpTheHotrod @ Aug 2 2003, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We've used LMGs....we've used HMGs...we've used Shotguns.... so far, and I've counted, I've only seen 3 Onos out of 134 not redeem away out of a group of 3 or 4 marines filling the onos ful of lead.
You're "answer" isn't the answer <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You, sir, must be a genius.
Nobody else would've managed to go through a testing process including enough Oni to form an objective opinion within the 36 hours you had the game.
[/sarcasm]
It's easy: If the enemy relies on Oni, equip two marines with JP and shottie, and let them guard the rest. Even <i>if</i> the Onos redeems, he's still gone for now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> After some thinking, I think I have found the reason behind this. (Ignore my previous post <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Most people are reluctant to get JPs now, since they cannot be used to kill hives like they used to. So the comm hands out HAs, whose "inability" to deal with onos ends them up in their digestive tracts.
Wait, and you'll see. The comms will learn that JPs counter oni, then everything will be different...
Although I still think redeeming oni are next to invincible.
joevGiving grief... With a smile.Join Date: 2002-07-20Member: 977Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
<!--QuoteBegin--RpTheHotrod+Aug 2 2003, 02:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RpTheHotrod @ Aug 2 2003, 02:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We've used LMGs....we've used HMGs...we've used Shotguns.... so far, and I've counted, I've only seen 3 Onos out of 134 not redeem away out of a group of 3 or 4 marines filling the onos ful of lead.
You're "answer" isn't the answer <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> a) that should be your not you're... unless you think I'm the answer. b) There are many ways of playing NS 2.0. The point is to think outside the box... As Nemesis points out, JP is the obvious counter to Onos...
Once again, its the usual case of some people being too stuck in their ways to adapt to change.
I can think of 1/2 a dozen ways of stopping devour/redempt, like using mines to drive onos'es back.. using grenades and hmg to suppress the areas that onos's move through. If the onos is redeeming before he/she ever gets near the marines then it's no problem.
If you're in a situation where it's impossible to stop the onos from devouring people before they redeem then the marine game has pretty much gone to pot anyway.
Those of us who have playtested and worked on balance for NS 2.0 for the last 2 months have never seen the devour/redempt as an issue.
You're basing your 'opinion' on one day of play.
Come back in a month. Then I'll be more inclined to listen to your 'complaints' as if they had value. For now, I personally classify it as whining.
o Onos is not the game ender that it was, so don't nerf one of its major attacks. o You can't compare alien anatomy to human. Who is to say what will and will not fit in an Onos' stomach? o Redeem should also redeem the marine, since it would be partially digested and, therefore, part of the onos. o Marines are excreted, so comments about digesting armour are unfounded. o Complaints about redeeming to easily should simply make you think about trying to make it redeem <b>before</b> it doevours! o You should not be able to see out of the Onos, since it is not transparent when looking at it, so why would it suddenly become transparrent from the inside?
The way I see it is that this attack <b>is</b> balanced and is probably the only not-too-hard counter for HA.
All the complaints in this thread stem from the simple fact that being devoured is anoying and it is boring to watch the inside of a stomach. Balance comments are excuses! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
My 2p (not cents!) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
What would be cool is if the sides of his stomach were <i>slightly</i> transparent, just enough for you to see where you are. Then you could look around with mouselook and see what's going on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The onos' slighttly transparent guts are covered by more guts, fat and 5 inch carapace.
The simple fact, story fluff aside, is that Devour+Redemption is lame. Fair enough that "Marines should adapt" but just quietly, its never as simple as JP vs Onos, there are always other creatures, the JP runs out of fuel.
Onos might not be the game ending creature it used to be, but at the moment, forgetting about devour, they JUST DONT DIE. Onos' die 1 in 100 attacks on a marine base. Im alright with that, thats why you get redemption, but to allow them to KILL A MARINE INSTANTLY at the same time is ridiculous. Devour is fair if the onos comes face to face with a Rambo marine, they get eaten, and they wont Rambo again. But when your in a pack.. and your seing your teammates get Instakilled, its demoralising.
Additionally, the ammount of res that gets wasted per HA+HMG/GREN/SHOTTY that gets Instakilled is also obsense, if that res could be saved (read: not instakilled) then the marines would be able to strike an offensive by setting up a seige outpost for example.
Finally, if you want to be new player friendly (Which Flayra wants) then you cant make the game this unbalanced. New people will close the game if they see nothing but goatse.
Ps. If you want story fluff, as the previous poster said, the marine isnt 'fully digested' because they get pooped out with armour, so they are not 'part of the Onos' therefore, they SHOULDNT get redeemed aswell.
They may not die, but they sure as heck don't do damage if you and a buddy shoot at them. Let alone a group of marines. Redemption is particularly useless when they are near a hive you are fixing to siege, from that siege base you set up with the 4+ ha hmgs+shotties+gls covering the builders. It would take an awful lot of redeeming onos to counter that.
Never let your equipped marines stray from base... or even with a buddy... Ideally you need around 4 or 5 equipped marines... you really don't get eaten if you don't stray from base, or your squad.
It's one of the few ways that the Aliens cant kill the goliath HA's now. They seem to be damn near invincible. I've seen two Onos go after one HA, and he killed both Onos. And if you say they must have sucked then you can go to #g4b2s on gamesnet and tell them themselves.
Devour is balanced,ONOS costs 100 res and it takes a while with one or two res towers to get it,marine HA+HMG+Welder,about 50-60,much cheaper than Onos,so is jetpack & shotgun & welder.Stop Whining. You aren't supposed to be superman in that HA so ya cant be ate or enything. Onos is the Counter for HA,JP is counter For Onos and lerk & fade are counters for JP.Mixed force of 2 la,1 jp,2 HA can defeat onos enyday.JP's have shotgun,Ha Hmg,La with Grenade launchers.Done that many times and killed the Onos.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
<!--QuoteBegin--iopred+Aug 2 2003, 02:06 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (iopred @ Aug 2 2003, 02:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The simple fact, story fluff aside, is that Devour+Redemption is lame. Fair enough that "Marines should adapt" but just quietly, its never as simple as JP vs Onos, there are always other creatures, the JP runs out of fuel. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Which is why you have other Marines. No, a single JP+Shotty will not take out a group of Aliens. Sorry, the JP+HMG whorage of v1.04 is gone. Deal with it. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Onos might not be the game ending creature it used to be, but at the moment, forgetting about devour, they JUST DONT DIE. Onos' die 1 in 100 attacks on a marine base. Im alright with that, thats why you get redemption, but to allow them to KILL A MARINE INSTANTLY at the same time is ridiculous. Devour is fair if the onos comes face to face with a Rambo marine, they get eaten, and they wont Rambo again. But when your in a pack.. and your seing your teammates get Instakilled, its demoralising. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As noted earlier, they DO die. You just aren't using the right gear. Quit complaining, grab a shotty, or dive for that gullet soldier so those who DO have them won't end up inside, and can bust you out. A shotty-squad CAN and DOES kill redeem-Onii like tearing through wet tissue paper. It isn't v1.04, and teamwork is not a dirty word any more. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Additionally, the ammount of res that gets wasted per HA+HMG/GREN/SHOTTY that gets Instakilled is also obsense, if that res could be saved (read: not instakilled) then the marines would be able to strike an offensive by setting up a seige outpost for example. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It is not an instakill. There is a chance to save it. You simply have not demonstrated the flexibility and intelligence needed to do this. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Finally, if you want to be new player friendly (Which Flayra wants) then you cant make the game this unbalanced. New people will close the game if they see nothing but ****. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The game is not unbalanced. The players are simply stuck in the v1.04 rut, where they did not have to THINK, relying on JP/HMG nearly every round as an auto-win. Welcome BACK to a balanced game. You aren't going to win if you try to rest on a broken crutch. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Ps. If you want story fluff, as the previous poster said, the marine isnt 'fully digested' because they get pooped out with armour, so they are not 'part of the Onos' therefore, they SHOULDNT get redeemed aswell.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> They are partially digested, having been immersed in a pure bath of the Bacterium which is actively infiltrating them and decomposing them. They are contained in it. Unless that major concentration is broken away (ie:SHOTGUNS) they are for all intents and purposes a part of the Bacterium, providing it energy and nutrients. Thereby the Hive brings it back. It is a vestigial organ, being absorbed for the good of the whole. It may discomfit some to realize that, but that's what's happening for the time being.
And as has been said time and time again. PLEASE play the game for more than just a few days before giving balancing suggestions? Once people stop thinking and playing like it is v1.04, it is exceedingly well-balanced. Even devour/redemption.
Comments
You're "answer" isn't the answer <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You, sir, must be a genius.
Nobody else would've managed to go through a testing process including enough Oni to form an objective opinion within the 36 hours you had the game.
[/sarcasm]
It's easy: If the enemy relies on Oni, equip two marines with JP and shottie, and let them guard the rest. Even <i>if</i> the Onos redeems, he's still gone for now.
You're "answer" isn't the answer <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You, sir, must be a genius.
Nobody else would've managed to go through a testing process including enough Oni to form an objective opinion within the 36 hours you had the game.
[/sarcasm]
It's easy: If the enemy relies on Oni, equip two marines with JP and shottie, and let them guard the rest. Even <i>if</i> the Onos redeems, he's still gone for now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
After some thinking, I think I have found the reason behind this. (Ignore my previous post <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo--> )
Most people are reluctant to get JPs now, since they cannot be used to kill hives like they used to. So the comm hands out HAs, whose "inability" to deal with onos ends them up in their digestive tracts.
Wait, and you'll see. The comms will learn that JPs counter oni, then everything will be different...
Although I still think redeeming oni are next to invincible.
You're "answer" isn't the answer <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
a) that should be your not you're... unless you think I'm the answer.
b) There are many ways of playing NS 2.0. The point is to think outside the box... As Nemesis points out, JP is the obvious counter to Onos...
Once again, its the usual case of some people being too stuck in their ways to adapt to change.
I can think of 1/2 a dozen ways of stopping devour/redempt, like using mines to drive onos'es back.. using grenades and hmg to suppress the areas that onos's move through. If the onos is redeeming before he/she ever gets near the marines then it's no problem.
If you're in a situation where it's impossible to stop the onos from devouring people before they redeem then the marine game has pretty much gone to pot anyway.
Those of us who have playtested and worked on balance for NS 2.0 for the last 2 months have never seen the devour/redempt as an issue.
You're basing your 'opinion' on one day of play.
Come back in a month. Then I'll be more inclined to listen to your 'complaints' as if they had value. For now, I personally classify it as whining.
joev.
o Onos is not the game ender that it was, so don't nerf one of its major attacks.
o You can't compare alien anatomy to human. Who is to say what will and will not fit in an Onos' stomach?
o Redeem should also redeem the marine, since it would be partially digested and, therefore, part of the onos.
o Marines are excreted, so comments about digesting armour are unfounded.
o Complaints about redeeming to easily should simply make you think about trying to make it redeem <b>before</b> it doevours!
o You should not be able to see out of the Onos, since it is not transparent when looking at it, so why would it suddenly become transparrent from the inside?
The way I see it is that this attack <b>is</b> balanced and is probably the only not-too-hard counter for HA.
All the complaints in this thread stem from the simple fact that being devoured is anoying and it is boring to watch the inside of a stomach. Balance comments are excuses! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
My 2p (not cents!) <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
What would be cool is if the sides of his stomach were <i>slightly</i> transparent, just enough for you to see where you are. Then you could look around with mouselook and see what's going on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The onos' slighttly transparent guts are covered by more guts, fat and 5 inch carapace.
Onos might not be the game ending creature it used to be, but at the moment, forgetting about devour, they JUST DONT DIE. Onos' die 1 in 100 attacks on a marine base. Im alright with that, thats why you get redemption, but to allow them to KILL A MARINE INSTANTLY at the same time is ridiculous. Devour is fair if the onos comes face to face with a Rambo marine, they get eaten, and they wont Rambo again. But when your in a pack.. and your seing your teammates get Instakilled, its demoralising.
Additionally, the ammount of res that gets wasted per HA+HMG/GREN/SHOTTY that gets Instakilled is also obsense, if that res could be saved (read: not instakilled) then the marines would be able to strike an offensive by setting up a seige outpost for example.
Finally, if you want to be new player friendly (Which Flayra wants) then you cant make the game this unbalanced. New people will close the game if they see nothing but goatse.
Ps. If you want story fluff, as the previous poster said, the marine isnt 'fully digested' because they get pooped out with armour, so they are not 'part of the Onos' therefore, they SHOULDNT get redeemed aswell.
Never let your equipped marines stray from base... or even with a buddy... Ideally you need around 4 or 5 equipped marines... you really don't get eaten if you don't stray from base, or your squad.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why you have other Marines. No, a single JP+Shotty will not take out a group of Aliens. Sorry, the JP+HMG whorage of v1.04 is gone. Deal with it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Onos might not be the game ending creature it used to be, but at the moment, forgetting about devour, they JUST DONT DIE. Onos' die 1 in 100 attacks on a marine base. Im alright with that, thats why you get redemption, but to allow them to KILL A MARINE INSTANTLY at the same time is ridiculous. Devour is fair if the onos comes face to face with a Rambo marine, they get eaten, and they wont Rambo again. But when your in a pack.. and your seing your teammates get Instakilled, its demoralising.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As noted earlier, they DO die. You just aren't using the right gear. Quit complaining, grab a shotty, or dive for that gullet soldier so those who DO have them won't end up inside, and can bust you out. A shotty-squad CAN and DOES kill redeem-Onii like tearing through wet tissue paper. It isn't v1.04, and teamwork is not a dirty word any more.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Additionally, the ammount of res that gets wasted per HA+HMG/GREN/SHOTTY that gets Instakilled is also obsense, if that res could be saved (read: not instakilled) then the marines would be able to strike an offensive by setting up a seige outpost for example.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It is not an instakill. There is a chance to save it. You simply have not demonstrated the flexibility and intelligence needed to do this.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Finally, if you want to be new player friendly (Which Flayra wants) then you cant make the game this unbalanced. New people will close the game if they see nothing but ****.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game is not unbalanced. The players are simply stuck in the v1.04 rut, where they did not have to THINK, relying on JP/HMG nearly every round as an auto-win. Welcome BACK to a balanced game. You aren't going to win if you try to rest on a broken crutch.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
Ps. If you want story fluff, as the previous poster said, the marine isnt 'fully digested' because they get pooped out with armour, so they are not 'part of the Onos' therefore, they SHOULDNT get redeemed aswell.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They are partially digested, having been immersed in a pure bath of the Bacterium which is actively infiltrating them and decomposing them. They are contained in it. Unless that major concentration is broken away (ie:SHOTGUNS) they are for all intents and purposes a part of the Bacterium, providing it energy and nutrients. Thereby the Hive brings it back. It is a vestigial organ, being absorbed for the good of the whole. It may discomfit some to realize that, but that's what's happening for the time being.
And as has been said time and time again. PLEASE play the game for more than just a few days before giving balancing suggestions? Once people stop thinking and playing like it is v1.04, it is exceedingly well-balanced. Even devour/redemption.
<span style='color:red'>*LOCKED.*</span>