I've played quite a few games, pretty even wins really. Most of the time, the team that worked together did the best.
I've noticed a tendancy for the kharaa team to not work together when the marines are holed up in their base, which can lead to a marine victory (by the time you get 3 hives and the res they will have most upgrades, so all their res can go straight into HA/HMG trains)
Shotties own so much it's sad (and fun, depending which side you are on). 2 shotties will own an onos without celerity, shotty/la seems almost as effective as ha/hmg for attacking due to faster speed and lame-destroying ability. Early shotties rip through skulks, lerks, gorges, and res nodes, and will make quick work of an unskilled fade.
Arms lab upgrades are affordable, which I love. Res control is critical to winning, as it should be, and hives seem to change hands more fequently.
Skulks no longer get minced by stock marines, fades come into play amazingly fast, and many great fade/shotty fights ensue.
All of the new sounds/crosshairs/map/etc. are totally awesome in every way, especially the LMG which now sounds like a real killer (it reminds me of the DOD tommy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
This one of the most beautifully balanced and enjoyable games I have ever had the privelege to play. Thanks to everyone that made it possible.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ploem+Aug 1 2003, 04:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ploem @ Aug 1 2003, 04:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Allrightie, feedback time. Or rather, pose question in hope you can answer time. There has been said a lot already about all the really good improvements in NS 2.0. Just one word: wow. But...
I just played my first game of NS 2.0 on ns_caged. It lasted 4 hours. Yes, you read that right, 4 hours. I actually jumped in as marine after the first hour of so. Marines were doing badly. No teamwork, people rambo-ing around. Kharaa had three hives. Marines were finally locked inside their start. We were down to one resource tower. The team changed a bit, people leaving and new people coming, so the teamwork now wasn't as bad as it was before. The really strange thing however is that the Kharaa team couldn't win. They just couldn't get through our base. Our comm got HA's, HMG's, GL's, upgrades, MT and all that with just one resource tower. Finally we broke out and got back a resource tower. We lost it again, because we had to defend base. This was right at 4 hours. Then the aliens gave up.. people left, which is easy to understand because for them it had been a boring time. Marines won. So how can this be? Why can't a team of 7 resource nozzles, three hives aliens kill the leftover marines? The team wasn't working together really well, but still, these were no beginners or anything. They tried coordinating attacks, different lifeforms etc. Nothing worked. So is this supposed to be this way? Did we miss some crucial NS2.0 experience?Cause they deserved to win but didn't....
We don't get it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good observation ploem. I forgot to post about that in my other post.
Marines are WAY too effective even when down to one RT against 3 Hive aliens.
I too have seen games drag on forever because fully upgraded Marines simply are way, way too powerful.
Combine that with the fact that Alien D chambers sucks, which means you need a lot of them (You know, up close near the marine base so we can heal)... but you cannot build a lot because even with every RT on the map, res is still incredibly SLOW.. which means everyone needs to help build some... But no one will do that because with 3 Hives everyone is already a Fade or ONOS and they all just want to try and kill the marines.
I love the game overall... soooooo much better then 1.4. The only thing i worry about is the stomp/devour/redemption combo for onos, i use cara on my onos and by the time we had three we where stoping heavy rushes like nobody's buisness, run up, eat, run away. Rinse and repeat and people where scared to go out of the base in heavys cause they knew we went after them first.
Other then that the game is wonderfull OMG the shotgun is a beutaful thing to behold now, me and another guy (comm was the third competent person on our team) DECIMATED entire teams of skulks, just a descusting weapon and so much fun to use
iv been pubbing all day, incase you have not figured it out yet (a lot of people have not):
<b>1 hive onos sucks</b> and sometimes fade
do not expect to win the game with a 1 hive onos period. we balanced it so that you could not, so dont expect that if you were selfish enough to save 100 res (instead of getting a hive) that you should own.
Ive now been played almost constantly since it was released and i would now like to discuss some tendencies in the games i have played, since i havent played for weeks i may be occationally wrong or inexperienced... but anyway here it comes:
PROs (only the greatest mentioned here to reduce space) + OMGOMGOMG This is truly great... this is like the real thing compared to 1.04 that was like... alpha stage!!! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--> + Skulk are finally owning point blank... yay!!! <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> + Fades are a diffrent but more varied unit <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo--> + Onos is the WarCow of Death and has just the right feel! <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> + Lerk is a specialist unit, not just a skulk that flapps! <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo--> + Many strategies viable, you didnt see THAT ONE coming, did ya <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo--> + Great new Maps and revisited old maps, especially NS_Eclipse (IMHO) + New Resources system is WONDERFUL + Many things more, but since most have been mentioned by name i dont remember them all.
CONs - Gestate into Onos still occationally causes stuck issue - Gorges are had to kill, very hard if more than one... and since they are cheap it not such a biggie losing one. (maybe increase Gorge cost by 5) - Lerks die easily, they should since they are harass and support units, but the price is a wee bit hefty. (maybe decrease Lerk cost by 5)... im not really sure on this one, but as of now i think its obvious that the lerk is expensive. - JetPacks come late (possible fix: make Protolab Req(only): ArmsLab. and make the Heavy Armor upgrade require the Advanced Armory) - The loss of ns_nancy ... Rest in Peace =( - The animation of the shotgun (the model is really great, but after each shot, its pumped with the pipe semi-up, then it snaps down for the next shot... just set it so the shotguns angle stays and it would be REALLY cool) - Phermones is not very usable.... i have experimented with it but had little or no use of it... perhaps this needs some extensive testing to confrim... we'll see. - Turrents... I think their price is right, and i think their effectivity/turret is right... but OMG there is virtually no limit on the number of turrets... its almost impossible to do anything against a large fullupgraded turretfarm ((10-15)... yes thats expensive but you get an unbreakable wall. not even bilebomb can do squat if the turrets are placed properly... my suggestion is that you set a limit of number of turrets per factory (like 5), and set maximum numbers of factories in one area to 2... this is just a suggestion, but seriously this is the greatest issue of 2.0 IMO. <!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
+++ NS2.0 is the greatest game since Tetris... thnx a lot Flayra and the rest of the Dev team!
Thnx for reading, please respond with opinions not flame.
I love it. But I found something that could be a bug. My fav race is alien and i love the blink and all but if u get adren it is unlimited an im almost sure this wasnt intentional. Now evyone is gonna come after me for tellin the dev team bout this lol.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 1 2003, 04:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 1 2003, 04:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well, right now, they <i>are</i> beginners. It's arguably harder for aliens to clear a turtling marine team out than vice-versa, but if the right combination of abilities (Lerks umbraing bilebombing Gorges defended by acid-rocketing Fades, for example), it's more than possible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe that. Although this answer sounds almost too simple to me, the game has been tested after all, or so I seem to remember reading a certain FAQ <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. We'll just have to see how future games turn out. One thing seems certain (to me <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->), the Kharaa need more teamwork than they used too. It used to be everyone just did what they wanted once the third hive went up and they won anyway (yeah, yeah, most of the time, not always). Now the aliens need to coordinate*. I do like that, don't mistake me, teamwork is great. It's just weird to experience a 4 hour game, when games should be shorter now <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->. We'll just play it more!! Damn, what a terrible solution <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a big vicious cycle. 2.0 sucks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now, now.. that was not the point I was trying to make at all. Let's just play some more games before we can conclude that, shall we. I highly doubt this statement will be true.
* edit: I just want to add that all this is based on experience on our public server. Of course clanplay is a different issue. And it's not that teamwork wasn't needed before, it's just that it needs to be tighter now.
It's kinda fun to see so many contradictory comments: Onos are too powerful, Onos are too weak, etc. Makes me think that things ARE more well balanced than it seems, because so many different experiences as possible.
Me <--- back to my own private "playtesting" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only balance change I would suggest (at the moment) is a 1-5 resource increase in the cost of shotguns. That would be it. They are just a Little too powerful for their price - allthoguh they can be countered, on pubs, teamwork is a rare material and this needs to be slightly accounted for. Aside from that, I await further playing until I can truely find another balance issue ^-^
<!--QuoteBegin--Apos+Aug 1 2003, 05:16 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Apos @ Aug 1 2003, 05:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's kinda fun to see so many contradictory comments: Onos are too powerful, Onos are too weak, etc. Makes me think that things ARE more well balanced than it seems, because so many different experiences as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, this is something that Blizzard has said in the past and which Flayra has quoted to me. You know that something is balanced when half of the people say it's too powerful and the other half say it's too weak.
It's great fun playing on a server full of peeps who I know for a fact are experienced and competent NS players who are like..
"Eh, what map is this?" "It's caged man!" "oooh, so it is.." "Eh? it's changed!!" "wot? invisible onos at hive 1 ?" "help, they moved the doors!!?"
Everyone is noob again and it's great fun.
Bonus points and hats off for..
1) New and "remix" maps, nice one. ( new "Hera" looks especially awesome, love the outside bit...) 2) New sounds rock. 3) Love the "location" brackets on the team chat, subtle but usefull. 4) Option to disable dynamic lights/particles. Epileptics and users with bad video cards thank you. 5) Ping!! even on a modem, it's perfectly playable, not that I'll care when I get cable and a sexy pc in a few months. 6) It's free!! nice one. When I think of all the crap I've wasted money on over the years it sorta gobsmacks me that most of my fave PC games were free downloads..
But yeah, sorry for rambling post, but, it's good.
<!--QuoteBegin--Necro-+Aug 1 2003, 05:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necro- @ Aug 1 2003, 05:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> all the complainers, well they just lack skill or think this is cs.
NS isn't a game which u are good at right away. it takes time. lots and lots of time.
for example the last 3 or so months ive been testing 2.0 JUST now i'm getting decent with the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm sorry, but I think this is a completely demeaning, simplifying and useless comment. So people who have an opinion about a game they like (remember there's lots and lots of positive feedback in this thread, and rightly so), are without "skill", or are all CS-players? I think not. I like CS, it's a fun game. I like NS, it's a fun, but different game. I don't want to spend "lots and lots of time" on NS. I don't have to play clanmatches, or serious matches against very "skilled" players. I just want to play NS as an "amateur" on a semi-regular basis on a fun server to have a fun match. This was possible in NS 1.04 and I'm sure it will be possible in NS 2.0. Most likely once everyone has played for a couple of weeks and learn to play the new game it will all balance out. Until then, everyone should probably withhold opinions, as they cannot really judge the game yet, sure. But as everyone is excited about it they will post things they like and things they don't. But this has nothing to do with "skill" or thinking it is CS. Pfff.
Further play may prove me wrong but it seems like RTs are almost utterly worthless. Res doesn't seem to come in any faster with 1 res than with 7 so you mostly rely on res for kills. Marines can turtle at the end and live off res for kills from alien assaults and since the res from the aliens RT comes in so slow you have trouble building the mass needed to take out the turtled marines. This leads to the hour long BORING extensions of games.
I'll have to say this game was more balanced than before.Every tech can be countered effectively,and aliens now fill in their roles
ie Lerk,he does his job and right and <b>still</b> can be used as a one-man killing machine,because I did with spores and spikes
And now you actually have to think before expanding.Smart move Flayra,now we will have to play this game the way it was meant,expand and deny.<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> JK it's very balanced.
Sensory chambers!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I love these things when alien and hate them when marine <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Skulk visuals,makes them more harder to hit,and I mean WAY harder to hit,because when a Skulk turns while moving it looks like it's skidding across the floor
I will like this mod for a long time,it's just those n00b comms that don't get whats new in 2.0
BTW Ploem,he wasn't talking about bad things to CS players,he is just sayiong that CS players believe that this is just the same as CS,he never said they lacked skill(imagine a harcore sniper on marine team....ouch!)
It's the old forum rule: Don't feed the troll - don't feed the marines. It's sometimes very important not to show oneself to the enemies unless multiple allies are nearby to 'drain' the res-for-kills option out. As for RTs being useless, I can assure you that it's quite on the contrary.
I gotta say, this is much better than 1.04. Very rarely do I find change to be good in games, but for the most part it is in 2.0. This post is going to be all the negatives I've found so far, but I'll say beforehand, there are MANY more positive changes than negatives. Now here's what I have to say about my experiences so far.
DCs should be a little more useful. Maybe heal 5 extra HP per tic? They just seem so weak right now. Maybe it's just their smaller size. That makes them "appear" this way?
The other thing that I can NOT stand at all is the marine jumping nerf. It is worse than CS! Let me explain...
In 1.04 the marine could strafe jump. This allowed them extra speed while getting from place to place. It was never really that much extra speed, but it was there. The complaint started from marines using this but doing it while crouched. That made a hard to hit marine going silently along at a fast speed. If the marine made noise while crouching and jumping with speed, combined with the 2.0 tracehulls, then this complaint would be very little if not nonexistant.
In CS, the players used to be able to bunnyhop at very high speeds (faster than 1.04 in NS). This was obviously a problem. So what did they do? The fixed it the RIGHT way. They made it so players COULD still bhop, but no where near as fast as before. It was a tough thing to do, but it was at least possible. (just like in real life) Plus when crouched there weren't tracehull issues and the players still made sounds. This made bunnyhopping pointless but still an option.
Now in 2.0 the "fix" on bunnyhopping was done wrong. The hitboxes are fixed making crouching not as "good". Great there's one problem gone, but the complete stop right as you land is what screwed it up. You are unable to keep going, making close combat for marine nearly impossible. If you jump, you stop when you land and you're an easier target, you don't jump, and its just about as hard to keep yourself out of the skulks mouth.
If bunnyhopping is to be nerfed, at least make it CS bad, not THIS bad. I'll tell you, I hear at least once or twice every game most of the people complaining about the marines movements. It just isn't as much fun as it was to be a marine now. (not to mention I'm sure I could run faster backwards than the marines in NS)
And one final note. The majority of people that complained about bunnyhopping couldn't do it themselves. They won't even notice the change in 2.0. I believe though, the people that took the time to learn the physics of the engine were better in combatting skulks in 1.04. This isn't exploiting at all, its skill. 2.0 removed any skill that could be learned in combatting skulks. A marine can't learn the movements of a marine. The movement keys have no use in fighting skulks (or any other aliens for that matter), they are just used to get around now.
May I suggest CS style? Crouched jumping makes noise, and normal jumping is very hard to do and about impossible to keep doing for a long distance, but it isn't impossible to jump a few times in a row.
NS 2.0 is great and all, but the problem lies not with the game, but the players? Perhaps even a simplistic Hazard Course should of been made. The sudden surge of new people has disabled some people, and a guide to comming would be great too, since most new people don't know what "this thing does" and refuse to build it. *cough* Arms Lab *cough*. ... All in all, include a patch of some sort perhaps that includes an interactive ingame guide of some sort, expecially comming. Too many nubs hit e, jump in, think that if they spam IPs they are god, and then jump out smiling, thinking they just renderded us the best service on earth. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> ... EDIT: Oh, and electricity is weak for its cost. A really big rush of skulks just about ripped it apart, rendering my team 50 res shorter. Nerf the cost, since if its stronger, it might start to frag fades.
I should add that it's quite hilarious playing on a marine team who think that 1.04 tactics will work.. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
( I normally try to play alien, I just kept auto-ing to marine, I assume because everyone wants to try the new alien abilities, still , it was funny. With a good comm and team, we still won, but ramboing just don't seem to work any more. )
".........to keep going, <i>making close combat for marine nearly impossible.</i>"
That's NS. If a skulk gets to the point where it can dig its teeth into your face, then quite frankly, he deserves to eat you ^-^
Marines are not supposed to be close combat fighters, else they would have swords and kung-fu. Even then, they would still be obliterated by the kharaa as the kharaa are adapted purely for melee. (ok and SOME ranged attacks. i can make mistakes >_<)
Summerised again - in ns, if a skulk/fade/onos gets close enough to touch you, then it's your own fault for not killing him/her fast enough ^-^
(oh, I have played marine, and I still agree with this)
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Aug 1 2003, 06:00 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Aug 1 2003, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's the old forum rule: Don't feed the troll - don't feed the marines. It's sometimes very important not to show oneself to the enemies unless multiple allies are nearby to 'drain' the res-for-kills option out. As for RTs being useless, I can assure you that it's quite on the contrary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if your advice is to sit around doing nothing for a while 2.0 failed in its goal of a quicker leaner game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->BTW Ploem,he wasn't talking about bad things to CS players,he is just sayiong that CS players believe that this is just the same as CS,he never said they lacked skill(imagine a harcore sniper on marine team....ouch!)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. I'm sorry if I didn't make my point clear. It was not that I felt CS players were being attacked for lacking skill, but I just felt that "lacking skill" was a very weird thing to accuse people who have remarks off. If I read all these comments, there doesn't seem to be a single CS-player-thinks-NS-is-CS comment in there. Aaaannnyway... let's not get CS mixed up in here, not a good thing <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
To add something constructive to the feedback thread also, instead of discussing less important stuff: the minimap. It has been said before, but I think it deserves mention again. What a great piece of work. Really. This will help out big time. It looks cool, it shows your location, the way you face all kinds of other neat stuff. And the toggle-map will also help out players like me who get lost very easily, big time!
Another small thing, what you have to look at as a marine when you're being devoured. It's alive, is glistening with Onos internal juices, it moves, it's scary. Looks great <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. And the distorted sounds really help for the atmosphere too. Me likes being devoured <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Theyre supposed to fall to big skulk rushes,you cannot just rely only electricity to defend an RT would you?
As for lazer....he has a point :/ The marines jumping is well....harder,if I felt like jumping around in Marine Start yu know what happens....
But hey at least if you accidentaly go near a pit of doom(ala ns_lost) it saves your butt from well....dying <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-----
Terran,yes the reason people think it's unbalanced is because they PLAY IT unbalanced.They still believe it's the same as 1.04.
Boy when will people learn to read the changelogs :/
<!--QuoteBegin--Edgecrusher+Aug 1 2003, 04:23 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Edgecrusher @ Aug 1 2003, 04:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> oooh another thing. umbra is kinda pathetic now <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah well umbra was changed since it affected how long spawn umbra lasted. Then at the last minute they decided to dump spawn umbra but they didn't restore umbra back to how it used to be. While umbra is fine for friendlies and buildings, you can no longer umbra yourself and attack. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, it's small cookies when you look at the big picture though.
Ya, that happened to me before - the marines were turtled in thier base with one rt and people would just be devouring, redemptioning, dying, etc. The answer to this was 1 lerk and 1 gorge, The lerk umbrad the gorge, the gorge webbed everything. This was of course, done in combination of the oni and fades and xenoing skulks.
My framerate is down in the dumps. My comp can't handle tranlucent structures as aliens, and as marines, well, i kinda DIED... O well, i cant turn my framerate higher, running at 640*480, everything in "customize" disabled, quality sound, music, lighting effects, everything. It's good in the first 10 minutes, then tfacs appear everywhere... Is there any way to make all that translucent blue on the hud of marines just dissappear? /rant
And i can't stand the new blink. I hate it through and through.
Comments
I've noticed a tendancy for the kharaa team to not work together when the marines are holed up in their base, which can lead to a marine victory (by the time you get 3 hives and the res they will have most upgrades, so all their res can go straight into HA/HMG trains)
Shotties own so much it's sad (and fun, depending which side you are on). 2 shotties will own an onos without celerity, shotty/la seems almost as effective as ha/hmg for attacking due to faster speed and lame-destroying ability. Early shotties rip through skulks, lerks, gorges, and res nodes, and will make quick work of an unskilled fade.
Arms lab upgrades are affordable, which I love. Res control is critical to winning, as it should be, and hives seem to change hands more fequently.
Skulks no longer get minced by stock marines, fades come into play amazingly fast, and many great fade/shotty fights ensue.
All of the new sounds/crosshairs/map/etc. are totally awesome in every way, especially the LMG which now sounds like a real killer (it reminds me of the DOD tommy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> )
This one of the most beautifully balanced and enjoyable games I have ever had the privelege to play. Thanks to everyone that made it possible.
But...
I just played my first game of NS 2.0 on ns_caged. It lasted 4 hours. Yes, you read that right, 4 hours. I actually jumped in as marine after the first hour of so. Marines were doing badly. No teamwork, people rambo-ing around. Kharaa had three hives. Marines were finally locked inside their start. We were down to one resource tower. The team changed a bit, people leaving and new people coming, so the teamwork now wasn't as bad as it was before.
The really strange thing however is that the Kharaa team couldn't win. They just couldn't get through our base. Our comm got HA's, HMG's, GL's, upgrades, MT and all that with just one resource tower. Finally we broke out and got back a resource tower. We lost it again, because we had to defend base. This was right at 4 hours. Then the aliens gave up.. people left, which is easy to understand because for them it had been a boring time. Marines won.
So how can this be? Why can't a team of 7 resource nozzles, three hives aliens kill the leftover marines? The team wasn't working together really well, but still, these were no beginners or anything. They tried coordinating attacks, different lifeforms etc. Nothing worked.
So is this supposed to be this way? Did we miss some crucial NS2.0 experience?Cause they deserved to win but didn't....
We don't get it <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good observation ploem. I forgot to post about that in my other post.
Marines are WAY too effective even when down to one RT against 3 Hive aliens.
I too have seen games drag on forever because fully upgraded Marines simply are way, way too powerful.
Combine that with the fact that Alien D chambers sucks, which means you need a lot of them (You know, up close near the marine base so we can heal)... but you cannot build a lot because even with every RT on the map, res is still incredibly SLOW.. which means everyone needs to help build some... But no one will do that because with 3 Hives everyone is already a Fade or ONOS and they all just want to try and kill the marines.
It is a big vicious cycle. 2.0 sucks.
Other then that the game is wonderfull OMG the shotgun is a beutaful thing to behold now, me and another guy (comm was the third competent person on our team) DECIMATED entire teams of skulks, just a descusting weapon and so much fun to use
iv been pubbing all day, incase you have not figured it out yet (a lot of people have not):
<b>1 hive onos sucks</b> and sometimes fade
do not expect to win the game with a 1 hive onos period. we balanced it so that you could not, so dont expect that if you were selfish enough to save 100 res (instead of getting a hive) that you should own.
PROs (only the greatest mentioned here to reduce space)
+ OMGOMGOMG This is truly great... this is like the real thing compared to 1.04 that was like... alpha stage!!! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
+ Skulk are finally owning point blank... yay!!! <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
+ Fades are a diffrent but more varied unit <!--emo&::fade::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/fade.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='fade.gif'><!--endemo-->
+ Onos is the WarCow of Death and has just the right feel! <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo-->
+ Lerk is a specialist unit, not just a skulk that flapps! <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->
+ Many strategies viable, you didnt see THAT ONE coming, did ya <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif'><!--endemo-->
+ Great new Maps and revisited old maps, especially NS_Eclipse (IMHO)
+ New Resources system is WONDERFUL
+ Many things more, but since most have been mentioned by name i dont remember them all.
CONs
- Gestate into Onos still occationally causes stuck issue
- Gorges are had to kill, very hard if more than one... and since they are cheap it not such a biggie losing one. (maybe increase Gorge cost by 5)
- Lerks die easily, they should since they are harass and support units, but the price is a wee bit hefty. (maybe decrease Lerk cost by 5)... im not really sure on this one, but as of now i think its obvious that the lerk is expensive.
- JetPacks come late (possible fix: make Protolab Req(only): ArmsLab. and make the Heavy Armor upgrade require the Advanced Armory)
- The loss of ns_nancy ... Rest in Peace =(
- The animation of the shotgun (the model is really great, but after each shot, its pumped with the pipe semi-up, then it snaps down for the next shot... just set it so the shotguns angle stays and it would be REALLY cool)
- Phermones is not very usable.... i have experimented with it but had little or no use of it... perhaps this needs some extensive testing to confrim... we'll see.
- Turrents... I think their price is right, and i think their effectivity/turret is right... but OMG there is virtually no limit on the number of turrets... its almost impossible to do anything against a large fullupgraded turretfarm ((10-15)... yes thats expensive but you get an unbreakable wall. not even bilebomb can do squat if the turrets are placed properly... my suggestion is that you set a limit of number of turrets per factory (like 5), and set maximum numbers of factories in one area to 2... this is just a suggestion, but seriously this is the greatest issue of 2.0 IMO.
<!--emo&::sentry::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/turret.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='turret.gif'><!--endemo-->
+++ NS2.0 is the greatest game since Tetris... thnx a lot Flayra and the rest of the Dev team!
Thnx for reading, please respond with opinions not flame.
I believe that. Although this answer sounds almost too simple to me, the game has been tested after all, or so I seem to remember reading a certain FAQ <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. We'll just have to see how future games turn out. One thing seems certain (to me <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->), the Kharaa need more teamwork than they used too. It used to be everyone just did what they wanted once the third hive went up and they won anyway (yeah, yeah, most of the time, not always). Now the aliens need to coordinate*. I do like that, don't mistake me, teamwork is great. It's just weird to experience a 4 hour game, when games should be shorter now <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->.
We'll just play it more!! Damn, what a terrible solution <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is a big vicious cycle. 2.0 sucks. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Now, now.. that was not the point I was trying to make at all. Let's just play some more games before we can conclude that, shall we. I highly doubt this statement will be true.
* edit: I just want to add that all this is based on experience on our public server. Of course clanplay is a different issue. And it's not that teamwork wasn't needed before, it's just that it needs to be tighter now.
Me <--- back to my own private "playtesting" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Aside from that, I await further playing until I can truely find another balance issue ^-^
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, this is something that Blizzard has said in the past and which Flayra has quoted to me. You know that something is balanced when half of the people say it's too powerful and the other half say it's too weak.
Max
It's great fun playing on a server full of peeps who I know for a fact are experienced and competent NS players who are like..
"Eh, what map is this?"
"It's caged man!"
"oooh, so it is.."
"Eh? it's changed!!"
"wot? invisible onos at hive 1 ?"
"help, they moved the doors!!?"
Everyone is noob again and it's great fun.
Bonus points and hats off for..
1) New and "remix" maps, nice one. ( new "Hera" looks especially awesome, love the outside bit...)
2) New sounds rock.
3) Love the "location" brackets on the team chat, subtle but usefull.
4) Option to disable dynamic lights/particles. Epileptics and users with bad video cards thank you.
5) Ping!! even on a modem, it's perfectly playable, not that I'll care when I get cable and a sexy pc in a few months.
6) It's free!! nice one. When I think of all the crap I've wasted money on over the years it sorta gobsmacks me that most of my fave PC games were free downloads..
But yeah, sorry for rambling post, but, it's good.
1.04 rules no longer apply.
This is a good thing.
NS isn't a game which u are good at right away. it takes time. lots and lots of time.
for example the last 3 or so months ive been testing 2.0 JUST now i'm getting decent with the fade. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sorry, but I think this is a completely demeaning, simplifying and useless comment.
So people who have an opinion about a game they like (remember there's lots and lots of positive feedback in this thread, and rightly so), are without "skill", or are all CS-players? I think not. I like CS, it's a fun game. I like NS, it's a fun, but different game.
I don't want to spend "lots and lots of time" on NS. I don't have to play clanmatches, or serious matches against very "skilled" players. I just want to play NS as an "amateur" on a semi-regular basis on a fun server to have a fun match. This was possible in NS 1.04 and I'm sure it will be possible in NS 2.0. Most likely once everyone has played for a couple of weeks and learn to play the new game it will all balance out. Until then, everyone should probably withhold opinions, as they cannot really judge the game yet, sure. But as everyone is excited about it they will post things they like and things they don't.
But this has nothing to do with "skill" or thinking it is CS.
Pfff.
ie Lerk,he does his job and right and <b>still</b> can be used as a one-man killing machine,because I did with spores and spikes
And now you actually have to think before expanding.Smart move Flayra,now we will have to play this game the way it was meant,expand and deny.<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> JK it's very balanced.
Sensory chambers!! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> I love these things when alien and hate them when marine <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Skulk visuals,makes them more harder to hit,and I mean WAY harder to hit,because when a Skulk turns while moving it looks like it's skidding across the floor
I will like this mod for a long time,it's just those n00b comms that don't get whats new in 2.0
BTW Ploem,he wasn't talking about bad things to CS players,he is just sayiong that CS players believe that this is just the same as CS,he never said they lacked skill(imagine a harcore sniper on marine team....ouch!)
DCs should be a little more useful. Maybe heal 5 extra HP per tic? They just seem so weak right now. Maybe it's just their smaller size. That makes them "appear" this way?
The other thing that I can NOT stand at all is the marine jumping nerf. It is worse than CS! Let me explain...
In 1.04 the marine could strafe jump. This allowed them extra speed while getting from place to place. It was never really that much extra speed, but it was there. The complaint started from marines using this but doing it while crouched. That made a hard to hit marine going silently along at a fast speed. If the marine made noise while crouching and jumping with speed, combined with the 2.0 tracehulls, then this complaint would be very little if not nonexistant.
In CS, the players used to be able to bunnyhop at very high speeds (faster than 1.04 in NS). This was obviously a problem. So what did they do? The fixed it the RIGHT way. They made it so players COULD still bhop, but no where near as fast as before. It was a tough thing to do, but it was at least possible. (just like in real life) Plus when crouched there weren't tracehull issues and the players still made sounds. This made bunnyhopping pointless but still an option.
Now in 2.0 the "fix" on bunnyhopping was done wrong. The hitboxes are fixed making crouching not as "good". Great there's one problem gone, but the complete stop right as you land is what screwed it up. You are unable to keep going, making close combat for marine nearly impossible. If you jump, you stop when you land and you're an easier target, you don't jump, and its just about as hard to keep yourself out of the skulks mouth.
If bunnyhopping is to be nerfed, at least make it CS bad, not THIS bad. I'll tell you, I hear at least once or twice every game most of the people complaining about the marines movements. It just isn't as much fun as it was to be a marine now. (not to mention I'm sure I could run faster backwards than the marines in NS)
And one final note. The majority of people that complained about bunnyhopping couldn't do it themselves. They won't even notice the change in 2.0. I believe though, the people that took the time to learn the physics of the engine were better in combatting skulks in 1.04. This isn't exploiting at all, its skill. 2.0 removed any skill that could be learned in combatting skulks. A marine can't learn the movements of a marine. The movement keys have no use in fighting skulks (or any other aliens for that matter), they are just used to get around now.
May I suggest CS style? Crouched jumping makes noise, and normal jumping is very hard to do and about impossible to keep doing for a long distance, but it isn't impossible to jump a few times in a row.
...
All in all, include a patch of some sort perhaps that includes an interactive ingame guide of some sort, expecially comming. Too many nubs hit e, jump in, think that if they spam IPs they are god, and then jump out smiling, thinking they just renderded us the best service on earth. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
...
EDIT:
Oh, and electricity is weak for its cost. A really big rush of skulks just about ripped it apart, rendering my team 50 res shorter. Nerf the cost, since if its stronger, it might start to frag fades.
( I normally try to play alien, I just kept auto-ing to marine, I assume because everyone wants to try the new alien abilities, still , it was funny. With a good comm and team, we still won, but ramboing just don't seem to work any more. )
That's NS. If a skulk gets to the point where it can dig its teeth into your face, then quite frankly, he deserves to eat you ^-^
Marines are not supposed to be close combat fighters, else they would have swords and kung-fu. Even then, they would still be obliterated by the kharaa as the kharaa are adapted purely for melee. (ok and SOME ranged attacks. i can make mistakes >_<)
Summerised again - in ns, if a skulk/fade/onos gets close enough to touch you, then it's your own fault for not killing him/her fast enough ^-^
(oh, I have played marine, and I still agree with this)
Well if your advice is to sit around doing nothing for a while 2.0 failed in its goal of a quicker leaner game.
I know <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. I'm sorry if I didn't make my point clear. It was not that I felt CS players were being attacked for lacking skill, but I just felt that "lacking skill" was a very weird thing to accuse people who have remarks off. If I read all these comments, there doesn't seem to be a single CS-player-thinks-NS-is-CS comment in there. Aaaannnyway... let's not get CS mixed up in here, not a good thing <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->.
To add something constructive to the feedback thread also, instead of discussing less important stuff: the minimap. It has been said before, but I think it deserves mention again. What a great piece of work. Really. This will help out big time. It looks cool, it shows your location, the way you face all kinds of other neat stuff. And the toggle-map will also help out players like me who get lost very easily, big time!
Another small thing, what you have to look at as a marine when you're being devoured. It's alive, is glistening with Onos internal juices, it moves, it's scary. Looks great <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->. And the distorted sounds really help for the atmosphere too. Me likes being devoured <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for lazer....he has a point :/ The marines jumping is well....harder,if I felt like jumping around in Marine Start yu know what happens....
But hey at least if you accidentaly go near a pit of doom(ala ns_lost) it saves your butt from well....dying <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
-----
Terran,yes the reason people think it's unbalanced is because they PLAY IT unbalanced.They still believe it's the same as 1.04.
Boy when will people learn to read the changelogs :/
Yeah well umbra was changed since it affected how long spawn umbra lasted. Then at the last minute they decided to dump spawn umbra but they didn't restore umbra back to how it used to be. While umbra is fine for friendlies and buildings, you can no longer umbra yourself and attack. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->
However, it's small cookies when you look at the big picture though.
Regards,
Savant
The maps are new, the tactics are new, hell, even the noises are new.
It is indeed a whole new game, and I'm really enjoying it.
I just hope here isn't a jp/hmg rush that wasn't spotted in testing.
My framerate is down in the dumps. My comp can't handle tranlucent structures as aliens, and as marines, well, i kinda DIED... O well, i cant turn my framerate higher, running at 640*480, everything in "customize" disabled, quality sound, music, lighting effects, everything. It's good in the first 10 minutes, then tfacs appear everywhere... Is there any way to make all that translucent blue on the hud of marines just dissappear? /rant
And i can't stand the new blink. I hate it through and through.
Old problems from v1.0 like the comm building a ST on someone and then having to recylce it are back again.
its nice that it was released but some really old bugs have been missed (HMG only reporting 250 ammo is one)