How To Make Enemies

F4F_Ender · July 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">Mapping forum need more subdivisions</div> Hi all,

I know that what I have to say is not popular, and especially on this forum which is becoming more and more fun map oriented.

But in my opinion this forum should have some more subdivision to separate the technical questions and "serious" map and the fun map, because there is more and more topics about fun maps, and there is so many topics per day that people don't even have time to read all of them and less again to answer them or comment them.

This is a NS mapping Forum and I'm not sure that mario brothers (I loved it when I was a child, in fact no, but...) really have something to do with NS. May be these maps should be published in another forum or in a subdivision because soon we will have Ns_pamelaanderson or ns_americanpie (bet you can do it!)

I'm not trying to make a fight in this forum and I'm not a snob who hates all fun maps (I like pillbox, I think that medevil which is very similar is good too) but most of them have nothing to do with NS and are called fun because it's more politically correct than lite maps. May be we should come back to the real NS game and spirit.

Awaiting your comments and I'm sure attacks

Inafiscisis · July 2003

Subdivisions?

finally a sane word.
I am addicted to sorting stuff in groups and categories, so this is right down my street.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>
I took the liberty of making a chart. Here's a simplified version:

I say we have 3 main subgroups:
General - General natural-selection-mapping discussions
Technical Stuff - Mapping problems and general hows of making natural-selection maps
"Look what I made!!" - Scream deleriously at the world about your brand new map

And then subcategories.

For technical, im thinking 2 subcategories:
Problems - Errors, Problems, map won't run, some stupid limit hit, all that...
Questions - Want a neat skulk catapult, or just wondering how to make a hive fly around?

And then presenting maps I think we need 3 subcategories:
"Ok, my bsp is just 0.2mb, but I swear it's REALLY fun!!" - ninjafall, marioworld, heck, even elimination...
"Got something cooking, but don't wanna hand you bsp" - Screens, anyone?
"Yay I'm all done with my über-map, now all you admins put it on your server!!" - Figures...
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

If anyone wants the full chart (with all the groups, subgroups, categories, subcategories and sub-subcategories), just pm me.

Cheers

And anyone that has failed to realise I am so full of Cr ap I can be smelled from London to Bejing....

<img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>
Go gorgerush!!

[edit]
And don't ban the llama for being a llama...that would just be cruel.

esuna · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Inafiscisis @ Jul 22 2003, 03:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Subdivisions?

finally a sane word.
I am addicted to sorting stuff in groups and categories, so this is right down my street.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'>
I took the liberty of making a chart. Here's a simplified version:

I say we have 3 main subgroups:
General - General natural-selection-mapping discussions
Technical Stuff - Mapping problems and general hows of making natural-selection maps
"Look what I made!!" - Scream deleriously at the world about your brand new map

And then subcategories.

For technical, im thinking 2 subcategories:
Problems - Errors, Problems, map won't run, some stupid limit hit, all that...
Questions - Want a neat skulk catapult, or just wondering how to make a hive fly around?

And then presenting maps I think we need 3 subcategories:
"Ok, my bsp is just 0.2mb, but I swear it's REALLY fun!!" - ninjafall, marioworld, heck, even elimination...
"Got something cooking, but don't wanna hand you bsp" - Screens, anyone?
"Yay I'm all done with my über-map, now all you admins put it on your server!!" - Figures...
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

If anyone wants the full chart (with all the groups, subgroups, categories, subcategories and sub-subcategories), just pm me.

Cheers

And anyone that has failed to realise I am so full of Cr ap I can be smelled from London to Bejing....

<img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>
Go gorgerush!!

[edit]
And don't ban the llama for being a llama...that would just be cruel.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
To be honest, i think you're going way over the top there. The mapping forum barely gets any traffic, in comparison to other forums on here, so splitting it down to so many groups would lead to nothing moving at all. Ontop of that, add the confusion that every thread will be titled "i dunno if this is the right forum".

But i wholeheartedly agree with splitting the forums up, or at least containing the fun maps.

Each thread on a "serious" map gets booted off the board so quickly it's not funny, and to be perfectly honest, this is generally because of the amount of "fun" maps being posted. By all means post fun maps, but it's meaning not so many people get a chance to catch up on the serious maps which a lot of mappers are pumping a lot of hard time and energy into making. And bear in mind us mappers are making them for free, we're doing it for ourselves and the community, booting them out of the public eye for "ns_cardboardbox" is both insesitive and downright rude almost.

As to the technical issues ... er ... issue, we need to get the "<a href='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=33005&hl=perpetual' target='_blank'>perpetual help thread</a>" stickied or something. It's a quick thread for posting mapping help and getting answers to a lot of common things with both NS mapping and also general HL mapping.

So yes, i feel that there should be a sub-forum (akin to the beta sub-forum in the general discussions forum) specifically for fun maps so all the two day maps can be posted to their hearts content and can spam about "ns_bareroomwithnodetail" without obstructing the serious and painstaking work of the proper mappers in this forum.

A little long winded, yes, but this is in no way intended to be any kind of flame, this is just my opinion.

Inafiscisis · July 2003

In case you missed it, I said:

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
I am so full of Cr ap I can be smelled from London to Bejing....
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Take nothing in my first post seriously.

Although we could use a few subdivisions.

OneEyed · July 2003

Omg, this is the most pathetic whine thread i've seen. It's RUDE to have a thread dropped out of view? lmao, ok whatever, anyways yea they make maps and on there own time and all, but theres nothing you can do about it.

Right now people are making a plethora of fun_maps, yes. This is true. But I am pretty sure that when NS 2.0 comes out, it will pretty much kill most fun_maps which is most likely the intention of Flayra, because he wants this to be a serious mod.

As for now, you people need to stop whining with threads like these. That are probably dropping those SERIOUS maps out of view. Hah!

esuna · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OneEyed @ Jul 22 2003, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Omg, this is the most pathetic whine thread i've seen. It's RUDE to have a thread dropped out of view? lmao, ok whatever, anyways yea they make maps and on there own time and all, but theres nothing you can do about it.

Right now people are making a plethora of fun_maps, yes. This is true. But I am pretty sure that when NS 2.0 comes out, it will pretty much kill most fun_maps which is most likely the intention of Flayra, because he wants this to be a serious mod.

As for now, you people need to stop whining with threads like these. That are probably dropping those SERIOUS maps out of view. Hah! </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Well it is rude. Mappers (myself included) spend months of their time creating something for nothing to benefit people that just knock it off the page with a thread like "ns_omgijustgothammerandmydadtoldmethiswasgood". You don't see the latest updates to maps (widow, colony, titan, whatever ...) being bumped for extra attention or for extra people to see them, do you? And ontop of the time and work it takes, some of us work real jobs so any free time whatsoever is taken working on this, god damn man, show some bloody gratitude to their work.

I never inteded my first response to be a flame. Why the hell did you have to flame me.

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>EDIT: Just FYI, i never created the thread, so stop with the insinuations of irony, they're completely baseless.</span>

Inafiscisis · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OneEyed @ Jul 22 2003, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Omg, this is the most pathetic whine thread i've seen. It's RUDE to have a thread dropped out of view? lmao, ok whatever, anyways yea they make maps and on there own time and all, but theres nothing you can do about it.

Right now people are making a plethora of fun_maps, yes. This is true. But I am pretty sure that when NS 2.0 comes out, it will pretty much kill most fun_maps which is most likely the intention of Flayra, because he wants this to be a serious mod.

As for now, you people need to stop whining with threads like these. That are probably dropping those SERIOUS maps out of view. Hah!  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Hmm,...

The fact that some threads are dropped from the first page is inevitable, not rude.
But your post was definitely rude. Very much so as a matter of fact. Don't hook up on
a few things mentioned. What is said here is that more subforums are needed you you and
your little friends can run off and make lots and lots of "ns_bigboxmap"s, without bothering
the ones that put several months of work in their maps. It would benefit all to have a bit more space.

Now apologize, or you're grounded, kid.

Wither · July 2003

This thread is flamefood, I'm sure the moderators will read it but this topic should get locked ASAP in my opinion :/

Inafiscisis · July 2003

This isn't flamefood...although, for some reason, OneEyed felt like flaming esuna. Then I flamed OneEyed for flaming. No flamefood here, uh uh.

Droggog · July 2003

Please don't lock this.
Just ignore the "flames" (if u think that is really a flame <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'> ) and stay on topic.
Im all for subdivisions in the mapping forum. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'>

Maus · July 2003

Convince the mods that "fun" maps aren't really NS (well, it's true) and that they have no reason to be here on the forum. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

esuna · July 2003

While i'd tend to agree with you, but a good deal of people, on occasions even myself, do like a good fun map every now and then to lighten up a bit, so outlawing them is a really bad idea. It's just people need to learn the difference in making a fun map and making a serious one.

KungFuDiscoMonkey · July 2003

Make a subdivision for the fun maps
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Natural Selection -> Natural Selection Creation -> Mapping Forum -> Fun Maps</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
and leave the mapping forum
</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Natural Selection -> Natural Selection Creation -> Mapping Forum</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
for more serious maps and genuine questions.

I don't mind the fun maps but I prefer the serious maps that people put hard work into. I would much rather be playing more maps like hydrosity and rampage than ns_imadethismapin30secondsorless

That's my 2 cents

chubbysteve · July 2003

Interesting idea... Fun map related posts are very popular I suppose. I prfer looking at porper maps - I can give critique and ideas and acutally begin to like the map and stuff instead of given a feeble thumbs up and just moving onto the next topic.

So I think a small subdivision could be in order, something simple like... mapping "showcase" and mapping "help" sections. The names are pretty obvious but basically showcase would be for screens, downloads and generally informing people of any progress. Help would be for the techinical areas, "how the f00k does this weldable work??" and so on.

On the other hand - it would just inconvience me more than any fun map posts do now...

CoolCookieCooks · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (::esuna:: @ Jul 22 2003, 11:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> While i'd tend to agree with you, but a good deal of people, on occasions even myself, do like a good fun map every now and then to lighten up a bit, so outlawing them is a really bad idea. It's just people need to learn the difference in making a fun map and making a serious one.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
too right! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Inafiscisis · July 2003

So we all for subdivisions here? Great, someone drag a mod over here!

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif'>
Go gorgerush!!

eaglec · July 2003

Yes we need to get ALL the 'fun map' stuff in it's own bin. It would also be nice to have a sub-forum for actual ns map .bsp releases, final or beta because these sink far too quickly. Then you have the main area for technical and design questions, screenshots, hints, tips, discusion and so on.

CoolCookieCooks · July 2003

yea that wud be coool <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

F4F_Ender · July 2003

My point was to help people reaise that now there is so many fun map that we can't even enjoy the real one -- and to be honest I was expecting many attacks from most of you, but I'm quite happy to see that you "all" agree with me.

What I don't really understand, is why do people make fun map for ns when they could do it for a basic HL mod? It's completly killing the idea of the creators of this mod.

Would you enjoy working hours to make a nice mod, with a nice atmosphere, a story..... and all you see are Fun maps with mario bross?<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'> Be serious, these people spent a lot of work on their mod so respect it or at least have the politness not to spam a NS forum with them.

For example, I spent almost two months of all my free time (I work and I have kidds) to make a real NS maps (my first map) and all you get is 5 or 8 answers -- at the same time someone make a Fun map in one day and get 20 comments, do you find that logical.

So fun mapper I'm still waiting for your Ns_pamelaanderson or ns_indycar map, this will be challenging at least.

As for the person who want this topic close, I think that he is completly wrong, because all he wants is to keep the same forum with the same problems, and all I want is to keep the same forum but without those problems, and if to reach this goal it means that we have to go through some verbals fight (which are very healthy if it is written in a polite way) then that should be done.

Now if a Administrator could give us his opinion about that, that would be great.

chubbysteve · July 2003

Admins are like police... they're never around when you need em...

And They got the power to take you down... <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Maus · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (eaglec @ Jul 23 2003, 10:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Yes we need to get ALL the 'fun map' stuff in it's own bin. It would also be nice to have a sub-forum for actual ns map .bsp releases, final or beta because these sink far too quickly. Then you have the main area for technical and design questions, screenshots, hints, tips, discusion and so on.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
A stickied "official releases" topic would do that job just fine - it works well in the models forum.

DruBo · July 2003

The thing about the fun maps that show up here is that they tend to be made by forum regulars. They post the maps here because this is the audience they want to reach. That said, having the "real" maps and the "fun" maps in such close quarters is just an invitation for constant flaming. I'll try to get Comprox's attention on this, see what he thinks.

DarkATi · July 2003

This whole "subdivision" stuff bothers me for a few reasons. First off, I NEVER have trouble finding posts, very rarely do I miss a new post. I don't always reply but I usually read. If you look at the numbers on this forum, many people read and do not reply, many topics have hundreds of views, but only 10 replies. Second, many of these "fun" mappers are just getting started and if we as the NS Mapping Community nurture them then one day they will be making serious, detailed maps. I do also agree that some are not learning, some just don't like spending lots of time and effort on a map and that's ok, NS Servers need diversity. I mean hey, I get sick of serious maps all the time. I play some ninja_fall, maybe some Nomblizkikkoman04 and then I'm back to Nancy or Caged. All I'm trying to say is, "This is the community, take it or leave it." You're trying to make the Mapping Community something they are not, fun maps can be FUN!

I just recently read a post about a map called Medevil. I downloaded the bsp and loaded her up. High R_Speeds and some other faults/flaws but other than that I really enjoyed the look, feel, and ambience of this map. And it is undoubtably a fun map - and it's fun.

Furthermore (oh no here comes an attack!!!) I think you like negative attention and want people to flame you. I am by no means an expert in psychology, but by making your post subject, "How to Make Enemies" and posting "I await your attacks" I think you like people being ugly to you because you like confrontation and proving your point. If there is no point to prove, you'll create one out of conflict. But enough about you.

I don't like this idea but I don't dislike it either. It does "bother" me because I don't think separating the NS Mapping Community is a good idea. I vote in favor of the "Official Release" stickie.

By the way I'm not trying to be an enemy, it's just my opinion. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

~ DarkATi

Greedo · July 2003

As a mapper, I wholly agree that fun maps and serious maps do not belong together. The time spent on a serious map compared to the time spent on a fun map is ridiculous. I could easily pump out a box DM big game hunters NS map with some kind of interesting twist in a couple hours. I recently spent well over 6 months of off and on constrction of ns_lost (over a year if you count my first, unreleased version of it, from which I lifted a number of design elements). But in the end, well, if you're really serious about mapping like a number of people around here are, no fun map is ever going to have any chance of ever being officially recognized, and rest assured that no company is ever going to hire you because your fun map is the most popular.

As a mod, I'd rather not see any more of an increase in clutter in these forums with the addition of separate subsections. If we do it for the mapping forum, we'll have to do it at least for the modelling forum as well.

eaglec · July 2003

So as a mapper yes, and as a moderator to the forums you cant be bothered?

erm ok then. Conversation closed I guess.

How To Make Enemies

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