A Serious Threat To Democracy

moultano · July 2003

This article has quite a bit of partisan bias, but it contains a summary of and links to a lot of necessary factual information.
<a href='http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/biggerthanwatergate.html' target='_blank'>http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/biggerth...nwatergate.html</a>

NumbersNotFound · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This is probably the easiest part of this puzzle to get your head around. The motivation of the Republican Party in general and the current administration in particular to gain ever greater amounts of power - by whatever means possible and damn the consequences - is evidenced most recently in the Supreme Court's partisan appointment of George Bush Jr. as President, the attempt to recall California Governor Gray Davis, and the Ken Starr investigation and attempted impeachment of President Clinton. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

That just killed the credibility of the ENTIRE story...

Bush was elected fairly, not "partisan" or some such nonsense, the recount process was already illegal under florda law, above that the guidelines that Gore wanted secured Bush's victory and the recount guidelines that Bush wanted would have secured Gore's presidentship. No conspiracy.

Gray Davis is head of the biggest state (population wise) and has a HUGE budget crisis on his hands. It's not a conspiracy when people SIGN A PETITION which goes against the ENTIRE view of the story (in which the people do nothing)

Finally, the impeachment of Clinton was warrented, as we don't need a president commiting adultery AND purgery to a grand jury in office. If I did that i'd still be sitting in a federal prison.

This entire story is crap... You can't involve THAT many people in a plan with out at least ONE person telling what's going on.

moultano · July 2003

Try to ignore that paragraph if possible. I picked that article out of all the ones that I've found because it contains the most condensed information about what is possible and what appears to have happened. The reality is that this system can be freely abused by anyone with the money or the access, republican or democrat. Its a shame that they chose to include that paragraph since it doesn't have much to do with the rest of the story. They effectively lost half their audience on a subject that needs as much exposure as possible.

TenSix · July 2003

I agree, theres no way they could have pulled off a massive scam like this without someone slipping up. Not only is it easier to just print false ballots using the names of the deceased as voters, but it would be much much harder to trace. No one is stupid enough to:

a) Put their entire company on the line for a scam that nets them nothing.
b) Make it so blatantly obvious that the machines are messed up by ONLY falsifying votes on November 5th.
c) Do something so easily traceable back to its source.

This article is pretty funny, it lays out a bunch of supposed evidence but in the end answers nothing more then the well known fact that electronic voting machines could possibly be tampered with (as could ANY form of voting). Then it tries to pass off spiel about a Republican Conspiracy as fact. Very funny.

Mullet · July 2003

I hate democrats.....Republicans pwnz j00.

NumbersNotFound · July 2003

Look at the message board that was linked too as well. Bunch of democrats who think that Republicans are the scum of the earth basically...

Hate to take the sunshine out of your day but this is just looking worse and worse.

They also think Bush is illegitimate and love Michael Moore... Do I need to go on?

moultano · July 2003

Having read the article several times now trying to make sure I wasn't hallucinating, I can't seem to find this claim of a conspiracy of a large number of people in the article. The things they were describing don't require more than a few of the designers of the machines to know what's going on. Just the security issues, the bizarre vote tallying mechanisms, and the erratic behavior of the machines was enough to give me the willies. I'd be interested to hear what specific parts of the story you find not credible.

NumbersNotFound · July 2003

I find the entire thing not credible.

The citations in the story have the same polical view as the person who wrote the original story.... and the people who visit the message boards... and the people who believe this when they read it...

It all smells funny, and seems to fit into the normal mentality of 90% of the democrats i've seen which is "everybody thinks the same way I do, and if they don't then it's a scam" and it's just silly.

That, and the error rate in which people are saying is minimal, much more minimal than the old system of pull levers, mechanical punches, etc which i'm sure were more prone to failure.

Voting fluctuations can be attributed to lunchbreaks of working class, precinct density, etc.

Just the love in Michael Moore is enough for me, who, in his most famous Bowling for Columbine, based most of his facts on fabrications and combinations of smaller, unrelated, instances.

And this all seems the same.

moultano · July 2003

The site certainly has a political bias, but the facts in the articles appear as near as I can tell to be factually true. I've seen them mentioned several times from other sources. For instance, the 18,181 coicidence was referenced in time magazine. I will try to find links for you. Here's a link on the Chuck Hagel connection: <a href='http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx' target='_blank'>http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx</a> .

Jammer · July 2003

The discussion forum was closed for a reason. The 2000 Election always brings up a nasty flame war. I personally do not find this thread credible (first, you can't upload with anonymous ftp...). This is just another example of crazy talk from the moon batty left. But other than that...

To prevent that from happening, here are the opinions that will come up:

"Bush is an idiot"
"Bush wasn't elected"
"Bush cheated."
"You people are crazy conspiracy nuts."
"Liberals have no grasp of the real world."
"Bush has wet dreams about recreated a fascist state in the US."
"I don't care about those facts, Bush is the best/current prez/doing fine."

That should just about do it. Please, let this thread die. Off Topic is not "Discussions"

moultano · July 2003

I was intending this thread to be about the possibilities for abuse with the current electronic voting machines, and not having much to do with the problems in the 2000 election.

Zel · July 2003

at the risk of losing all credibility for my entire future at these forums, i must admit i would love to see micheal moore as president.

i dont see anything wrong in being a pascifist and idealistic.

Spooge · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jul 13 2003, 05:42 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I was intending this thread to be about the possibilities for abuse with the current electronic voting machines, and not having much to do with the problems in the 2000 election.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Then you picked the wrong article :/

But, if you were to find some research by CREDIBLE authors then valuable information could be spread <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Maybe you should try searching again.

Brave_Ulysses · July 2003

Done in a tongue-in-cheek style, but pretty much factually accurate:

moultano · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Spooge @ Jul 13 2003, 05:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Then you picked the wrong article :/

But, if you were to find some research by CREDIBLE authors then valuable information could be spread <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Maybe you should try searching again. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
I was hoping that people could separate the facts from the opinions in that.
I picked that article because of the density of facts that it contained, not for its conclusions.

For the interested parties here is a short list of other links about the problem:

<a href='http://www.lpgeorgia.com/ga/news/pr00009.html' target='_blank'>http://www.lpgeorgia.com/ga/news/pr00009.html</a>
<a href='http://www.eff.org/Activism/E-voting/20030702_eff_pr.php' target='_blank'>http://www.eff.org/Activism/E-voting/20030...0702_eff_pr.php</a>
<a href='http://ceicher.homeunix.com/archives/000277.html' target='_blank'>http://ceicher.homeunix.com/archives/000277.html</a>
<a href='http://www.verifiedvoting.org/drefaq.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.verifiedvoting.org/drefaq.asp</a>
<a href='http://pub103.ezboard.com/fsoldiervoicefrm4.showMessage?topicID=23.topic' target='_blank'>http://pub103.ezboard.com/fsoldiervoicefrm...opicID=23.topic</a>
<a href='http://www.csl.sri.com/users/neumann/illustrative.html#24' target='_blank'>http://www.csl.sri.com/users/neumann/illus...trative.html#24</a>
<a href='http://www.counterpane.com/crypto-gram-0012.html#1' target='_blank'>http://www.counterpane.com/crypto-gram-0012.html#1</a>
<a href='http://www.calvoter.org/publications/paperorplastic.html' target='_blank'>http://www.calvoter.org/publications/paper...rorplastic.html</a>

Sirus · July 2003

Heh. Here's a tip, don't trust anything on the internet. Please, find a book, talk to a professor. But please, don't trust the internet, you will find yourself being mislead.

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Gray Davis is head of the biggest state (population wise) and has a HUGE budget crisis on his hands. It's not a conspiracy when people SIGN A PETITION which goes against the ENTIRE view of the story (in which the people do nothing)</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

Absolutely. Gray Davis is the biggest idiot. Living in California with him as governor is terrible. He's increasing taxes like mad, Vehicle registration is going up hundreds of dollars, in addition, he's trying to get extra taxes on SUV's. And I'm talking hundreds of dollars of taxes.
Let's ignore the fact that some people need SUV's and the taxes would be a burden, since not everyone can afford to fork over an extra thousand or so because of the governors opinion on pollution.

Also, during our power crisis, he made a deal with a power company, increasing our power costs by hundreds, and there was some politics involving the prevention of not being able to build power plants.

All in all. Gray Davis, is ... a complete, idiot.

BTW, Arnold Schwartzawhatever might run for governor eventually, and I'm seriously thinking about voting for him, who, you might be surprised is actually an intelligent man.

Xzilen · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jul 13 2003, 04:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> This article has quite a bit of partisan bias, but it contains a summary of and links to a lot of necessary factual information.
<a href='http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/biggerthanwatergate.html' target='_blank'>http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/biggerth...nwatergate.html</a>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
The bias in this article is clearly shown to be towards the left. What a load of crap this is. I could go on, and on but the article speaks for its self.

Perhaps post something with more crediblity next time.

moultano · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sirus @ Jul 13 2003, 07:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> BTW, Arnold Schwartzawhatever might run for governor eventually, and I'm seriously thinking about voting for him, who, you might be surprised is actually an intelligent man. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
We in ohio will probably have jerry springer running for senate. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'> <a href='http://www.runjerryrun.com' target='_blank'>http://www.runjerryrun.com</a> I'd vote for him in a second.

Xzilen · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Jul 13 2003, 05:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> I hate democrats.....Republicans pwnz j00.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
OMG <3 <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

moultano · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Jul 13 2003, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Perhaps post something with more crediblity next time.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Read the rest of the thread. I posted a whole list of them.

Xzilen · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jul 13 2003, 05:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> The site certainly has a political bias, but the facts in the articles appear as near as I can tell to be factually true. I've seen them mentioned several times from other sources. For instance, the 18,181 coicidence was referenced in time magazine. I will try to find links for you. Here's a link on the Chuck Hagel connection: <a href='http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx' target='_blank'>http://www.hillnews.com/news/012903/hagel.aspx</a> .  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
And we all know that Time magazine editors would NEVER populate a site like that *cough cough*

Xzilen · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (moultano @ Jul 13 2003, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Jul 13 2003, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Perhaps post something with more crediblity next time. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
Read the rest of the thread. I posted a whole list of them.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I appolgize, I usually tend to not read through the entire thread before I post.

NumbersNotFound · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>BTW, Arnold Schwartzawhatever might run for governor eventually, and I'm seriously thinking about voting for him, who, you might be surprised is actually an intelligent man. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

I'd actually believe it... you don't get to be that muscular and successful without organization and dicipline, both of which require some mental activity.

moultano · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xzilen @ Jul 13 2003, 07:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> And we all know that Time magazine editors would NEVER populate a site like that *cough cough*  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Here's another site then. <a href='http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/110802_sn_number.html' target='_blank'>http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/news/110802_sn_number.html</a>

Salty · July 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zel @ Jul 13 2003, 05:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> at the risk of losing all credibility for my entire future at these forums, i must admit i would love to see micheal moore as president.

i dont see anything wrong in being a pascifist and idealistic.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
You do know he is a communist right?

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>BTW, Arnold Schwartzawhatever might run for governor eventually, and I'm seriously thinking about voting for him, who, you might be surprised is actually an intelligent man. </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

The fact that California considers him a Republican scares me more then anything. Hes not exactly for a "free market."

Libertarian > all your bases. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

CplDavis · July 2003

Im not even going to touch this...

oops dang.

A Serious Threat To Democracy

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