Bunnyhopping

MulletMullet Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15910Members, Constellation
edited June 2003 in Off-Topic
<div class="IPBDescription">skill....or exploit...</div> Okay I just wanted to know how everyone else felt about bunny hopping. Personally, I dont mind it when you dont go overboard. Somepeople, i wont mention who, bunny hop like there is no tomorrow. They bunnyhop faster than an alien is with celerity, and they say its "skill". How in the hell is jumping 2 times faster than the game intended to skill? I could say that the shooting + flashlight bug is skill. Its not just with aliens, its with marines too. When they bhop with the marines, its like as fast as an alien with celerity, but they do it while crouched, so its silent....lame. What do you guys think? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo-->

Comments

  • InsaneInsane Anomaly Join Date: 2002-05-13 Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
    edited June 2003
    Whether or not people call it a skill, it still matches the definition of an exploit. That is, a quirk or bug in the engine that when used by a player, gives them an advantage, usually an unfair one.

    There's no doubt that bunnyhopping was obviously not deliberately programmed into the engine, so therefore it's an exploit. Hovever, it requres a certain amout of practice to perfect, so it can be called a skill, but if so, it's a skilled exploit.

    I can see this becoming a pretty heated argument, though. Remember MonsE's topic, people. -_-
  • Ph0enixPh0enix Join Date: 2002-10-08 Member: 1462Members, Constellation
    edited June 2003
    <!--QuoteBegin--Mullet+Jun 24 2003, 12:56 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mullet @ Jun 24 2003, 12:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What do you guys think?  <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I think this topic has been discussed and re-cycled more times then I care to remember in one form or an other.

    So please, if you've been in the forums for a while please just pass straight over this topic and anyone relatively new can 'enjoy' the same BHing arguements i've already seen nth times.

    Edit: As Insane has stated, often these turn into a flamewar, usually over whether its an exploit/skill. Play nice <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • DubersDubers Pet Shop Boy Edinburgh, UK Join Date: 2002-07-25 Member: 998Members
    Man this subject has been discussed , discussed more, re-dicussed and discussed to death.

    I think we can safely accept that bunny hopping IS and expliot.
  • MulletMullet Join Date: 2003-04-28 Member: 15910Members, Constellation
    It's not like I'm making you guys post...If you dont wanna read what I write, then dont read it. I realize this has been posted before, but im trying to make a point to <i>someone</i> and I told them i'd do this.....so no more posts about how people have already posted this! Thanks anyways. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • BogglesteinskyBogglesteinsky Join Date: 2002-12-24 Member: 11488Members
    its an exploit that requires skill to use <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    As much as I admire anything which demands skill, I don't like bunnyhopping for the simple reason that it detracts from the gameplay. In say, quake deathmatch or some other example of fast paced mayhem it's fine. In any team-based game where speed is not the highest priority, it detracts from the gameplay rather than adding to it.

    Another engine exploit which takes skill to use and *does* add gameplay is rocket\grenade\concussion jumping, which I'm all for. But I hate bunnyhopping.
  • Amped1Amped1 Join Date: 2003-02-08 Member: 13287Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--z.x. bogglestiensky+Jun 24 2003, 07:25 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (z.x. bogglestiensky @ Jun 24 2003, 07:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> its an exploit that requires skill to use <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Amen!
  • OttoDestructOttoDestruct Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7790Members
    Bunnyhoping ruins the purity of the game, and the environment itself. Thats all I'm going to say.
  • RandomEngyRandomEngy Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6146Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I like it because it adds another level of mastery to the game... something everyone can learn and use with practice. That's true whether you label it an "exploit" or not.
  • JediYoshiJediYoshi The Cupcake Boss Join Date: 2002-05-27 Member: 674Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--OttoDestruct+Jun 24 2003, 10:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (OttoDestruct @ Jun 24 2003, 10:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Bunnyhoping ruins the purity of the game, and the environment itself. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Enviroment? I would guess 40% of MODs at least allow you to bunnyhop -_-

    AKA: It wouldn't ruin the atmosphere of TFC because it's done there so often.
  • CowswinCowswin Join Date: 2003-03-17 Member: 14623Banned, Constellation
    There's no difference between this skill and exploit. If it was meant to be in the game, the would have a "bunnyhopping" variable or put it in the manual at least.

    They don't.

    It's a skill AND an exploit just like any other hacking. Not everyone can hack into the Bank of America, but those that do are skilled. They're also exploiting weaknesses in the system. Therefore it's BOTH. Stop trying to seperate the two. At least in this instance.
  • Nemesis_ZeroNemesis_Zero Old European Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 75Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    In NS, bunnyhopping is officially an exploit, as it can be seen by the means taken against it in 1.1.

    Deal with it.
  • V_MANV_MAN V-MAN Join Date: 2002-11-03 Member: 6217Members, Constellation
    What annoys me about it is that the marines can do it both forward and backwards at speed thb tho I wouldn't mind it if it wasn't silent that fact that it is silent means it's lame.
  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Jun 24 2003, 01:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jun 24 2003, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In any team-based game where speed is not the highest priority, it detracts from the gameplay rather than adding to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Speed is a highest priority in NS.

    I guess you have to have different viewpoints on the subject, and most of you here are agreeing against bunnyhopping. I somewhat support it. I suppose because it's because I play in a clan and use it to my advantage like most clanplayers do. I don't find it lame at all, because it adds a little depth to the somewhat shallow Marine play we see in the current version of NS, where the gameplay is just track, shoot, kill. I've never really had a problem killing a bunnyhopping Marine as a skulk, but that's just me.

    Anyway, I'm a bit miffed it's going out in 1.1, but as I hear from vets, you kind of develop the skill to use your one fast jump to "dodge" skulks which I think is a good replacement for bunnyhopping, it doesn't give an overwhelming advantage to anyone, but those that can use it have that little edge.
  • Skillzilla1Skillzilla1 Join Date: 2003-05-14 Member: 16282Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Insane+Jun 24 2003, 07:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Insane @ Jun 24 2003, 07:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Whether or not people call it a skill, it still matches the definition of an exploit. That is, a quirk or bug in the engine that when used by a player, gives them an advantage, usually an unfair one.

    There's no doubt that bunnyhopping was obviously not deliberately programmed into the engine, so therefore it's an exploit. Hovever, it requres a certain amout of practice to perfect, so it can be called a skill, but if so, it's a skilled exploit.

    I can see this becoming a pretty heated argument, though. Remember MonsE's topic, people. -_- <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Exactly what I thought. Plus you almost HAVE to bunnyhop to be a competitive clan in 1.04. Well you did before all the good ones went to PT :/
  • KEm1KaL1KEm1KaL1 Lerky Lerky Join Date: 2003-02-21 Member: 13797Members
    Since it is being taken out in 1.1, it is very obviously not supposed to exist therefore it is definitely an exploit, however, I will not deny that it takes skill to perfect and skillzilla is very right, to survive in competitive leagues, you need to push the limits of exploiting, do as much as you can without crossing the line to win.

    <!--emo&::lerk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/lerk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='lerk.gif'><!--endemo-->
  • dr_ddr_d Join Date: 2003-03-28 Member: 14979Members
    The question isn't whether it's a skill or exploit but whether or not it belongs in NS. This question has already been answered.
  • LikuLiku I, am the Somberlain. Join Date: 2003-01-10 Member: 12128Members
    Skill in Bunny Hopping? LOL!
  • JediYoshiJediYoshi The Cupcake Boss Join Date: 2002-05-27 Member: 674Members
    edited June 2003
    Gimmie a demo of you bunny hoping in anything, as you know, it's not just jumping up and down forward (-_- )

    IMO: I've never seen real bunny hoping in NS, just people who strafe against walls and jumping in a striahgt line.
  • XzilenXzilen Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11642Members, Constellation
    Eh, if all clans made an agreement not to try to exploit the engine to the max to try to win then I think it would be an easier loss for some people when it is taken out.
  • OttoDestructOttoDestruct Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7790Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IMO: I've never seen real bunny hoping in NS, just people who strafe against walls and jumping in a striahgt line. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Wallstrafing is a server side variable which can be changed.
  • JediYoshiJediYoshi The Cupcake Boss Join Date: 2002-05-27 Member: 674Members
    On another note, real bunny hoping would get you around the outside of this map in roughly 6 seconds.

    <img src='http://www.frailart.net/members/trueyoshi/mix.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    <!--QuoteBegin--Duff-Man+Jun 25 2003, 03:38 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duff-Man @ Jun 25 2003, 03:38 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--SoulSkorpion+Jun 24 2003, 01:07 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SoulSkorpion @ Jun 24 2003, 01:07 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In any team-based game where speed is not the highest priority, it detracts from the gameplay rather than adding to it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Speed is a highest priority in NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
    It *isn't*. NS has more to it than pure speed - it's also got RTS strategy, teamwork, melee skills, the difficulty in tracking moving targets, etc. etc. It isn't a pure adrenaline-based twitch shooter. Bunnyhopping increases the pace of the game, which I think weakens it.
  • JediYoshiJediYoshi The Cupcake Boss Join Date: 2002-05-27 Member: 674Members
    What do you mean changing the pace of the game will weaken it? 1.1 will have shorter games anyway.
  • pardzhpardzh Join Date: 2002-10-25 Member: 1601Members
    I refuse to believe that being fast in NS is not important. It's just all too obvious in every game/match/scrim I've played that the faster you can get to a node being eaten, the less chance you'll have to recycle it. The faster you can get to a hive and keep the aliens penned up in it, the fewer ones you'll have to deal with eating your nodes, etc.

    When you take games to a higher level of competition, they become faster paced. Every little thing matters. Take a look at any RTS game in high level ladders. Every little point of gold or wood matters and pro's use every little point of gold or wood for upgrades, buildings, units exactly when they want to and as fast as they can. It's just a fact of competitive gaming.
  • SoulSkorpionSoulSkorpion Join Date: 2002-04-12 Member: 423Members
    I didn't say speed isn't important. What I meant was that if you want to bounce around like a ferret on crack, play a fast-paced twitch shooter. I have nothing against bouncing around like a ferret on crack, but I don't think NS is the game for it. Yes, it's an advantage if you can reach a res node that's under attack as fast as possible - I don't think it's a good thing to be able to do that, however. There need to be limits. There's a difference between something that's an advantage and something which enhances the game experience.
  • TalesinTalesin Our own little well of hate Join Date: 2002-11-08 Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
    <!--QuoteBegin--Duff-Man+Jun 24 2003, 08:14 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Duff-Man @ Jun 24 2003, 08:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I refuse to believe that being fast in NS is not important. It's just all too obvious in every game/match/scrim I've played that the faster you can get to a node being eaten, the less chance you'll have to recycle it. The faster you can get to a hive and keep the aliens penned up in it, the fewer ones you'll have to deal with eating your nodes, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Or maybe you should just defend them more effectively in the first place? Or drop a phase gate? They *are* there to facilitate rapid transit, WITHOUT exploiting.
    <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
    When you take games to a higher level of competition, they become faster paced. Every little thing matters. Take a look at any RTS game in high level ladders. Every little point of gold or wood matters and pro's use every little point of gold or wood for upgrades, buildings, units exactly when they want to and as fast as they can. It's just a fact of competitive gaming.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    There is a difference between micromanaging resources and, say, map-exploiting. Map-bugging will get you s**tcanned from 'competitive' play faster than you can say 'legal tactic' in the majority of RTS ladders out there. Bunnyhopping in NS is no different, excepting for the lack of a precedent. Though currently, a number of leagues will auto-resign you from a match for silent bunnyhopping.. and possibly remove you from further competition in that organization for a set period. Hopefully a few will expand this to any Marine bunnyhopping, period.


    It's been stated by the Developers that Marine bunnyhopping in NS is an exploit. A cheat. Not supposed to be in there in the first place. Illegal.
    Any of this getting through?
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