Remaining Half-life Monsters In Natural-selection

NerdIII · June 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">what works, what doesn't</div> I thought it was time for me again to do some research. In to threads I read about people wondering which Half-Life monsters work for Natural-Selection. Yes, barney works <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> - but he doesn't shoot, right? In fact, he shoots, but not at players. Though he goes mad at those military grunts and aliens.
To keep the list short I removed all the monsters that can't be loaded because the entity was removed completely or the entity was replaced by another one that is not compatible (no 'eyes').

Generally all monsters with working AI have the same frineds and foes as in vanilla Half-Life. E.g.: Barney will not attack any players, but the human grunts.

monster_flyer_flock:
as entity: 100% working
via monstermaker: not working

monster_grunt_repel:
not working

monster_tripmine:
as entity: not working
via monstermaker: looks like a marine mine, explodes as soon as players join the game

monster_hevsuit_dead:
always a non-solid jetpacker, half stuck into the floor

monster_miniturret, monster_turret:
always in 'ready' position, but no AI/shooting

monster_sentry:
same as above, but the model is replaced by the marine sentry

monster_cockroach:
100% working

monster_barney:
100% working, but does no damage

monster_bullchicken:
100% working, but only does damage with spit

monster_human_grunt:
almost fully working, except some cache problems with the weapon models.
Nice for testing but will sooner or later crash HL when running away for relaoding.
MP5 grenades replaced by marine grenadelauncher

monster_alien_controller:
100% working, but does no damage

monster_snark:
100% working, but does no damage

monster_alien_grunt:
working, but must not shoot its hornet gun or HL will crash
(keep away from fights)

monster_bigmomma:
working, but must not shoot acid or spawn babycrabs
(keep away from fights)

monster_barney_dead:
100% working

monster_hgrunt_dead:
100% working

monster_flyer:
100% working

monster_flyer_flock:
100% working

monster_bloater:
just eyecandy, no animations

xen_*:
all xen plants work 100%, except the light plant does not emit light (thanks tommy)

To see other monsters use cyclers or env_models.

A simple test map can be found here:
<a href='http://www.100free.com/N/NerdIII/monster_test.zip' target='_blank'>monster_test.zip</a>
as long as the free hosting company doesn't delete my account because I only use it to store files <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

If you find an error please post it.

Reese · June 2003

So wait, you're telling me we can have cockroaches? The hives will never look the same.... and now no mess hall will be complete without them.

NerdIII · June 2003

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'> Yep that's right, I've also thought of many places that need some roaches.
I've let a bullsquid, a marine, barney and an alien controller fight each other. After 5 minutes barney was killed! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'>
It is also fun to see marines fire Natural Selection grenades from their MP5s <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>
Oh and here is a testmap with some roaches and other monsters.
(Download the attached 'image' and save it as a .zip-file)

Shadowics · June 2003

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (NerdIII @ Jun 23 2003, 01:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> (Download the attached 'image' and save it as a .zip-file)  </td></tr></table> 
I can't get it to save, why didn't you just upload it as a .zip file?

tommy14 · June 2003

remember, non of this is acceptable in an offical NS map!

when i last checked, these worked:

xen - more aliens!

the xen light plant works - but you have to have it target a light entity to get the effect as usual.
the xen "spiking" tree works, and it will try to hit ya as it is supposed to/
the xen hair "grass" works and waves around.
the xen spore is there, i forget what it is supposed to do?

the xen tree reacts to player (kharaa or human) only, not to structures. and human turrets and alien offensives do not react to xen entity/creatures (light plant, spores, hair, tree).

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these showed up when i tested them behind a glass wall. don't think AI works well.....
monster_alien_grunt, monster_flyer_flock, monster_alien_controler, monster_bullchicken, monster_bloater, monster_hevsuit_dead, monster_hgrunt_dead, monster_human_grunt, monster_leech, monster_miniturret, monster_sentry, monster_snark, monster_turret, monster_bigmomma .

these do NOT show up at all:
monster_alien_slave, monster_cockroach, monster_babycrab, monster_barnacle, monster_headcrab, monster_gman, monster_human_assassin, monster_grunt_repel, monster_ichthyosaur, monster_houndeye, monster_rat, monster_satchelcharge, monster_scientist, monster_scientist_dead, monster_sitting_scientist, monster_tentacle, monster_tripmine, monster_zombie, monster_osprey, monster_apache, monster_nihilanth, monster_gargantua.

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btw, how to show the models without using those entitys:

cycler, cycler_weapon do work to show most models, but the model cannot be interacted with - ie no shooting gun to be picked up, no operating turrets. there is a clip brush so it seems solid.

cycler_sprite also shows a model, but it does not clip it. of course it also shows animated sprites....

env_sprite cycler_sprite also shows a model, but it does not clip it. of course it also does sprites....

have fun on your custom private maps, until these are coded out!

The_Real_Quasar · June 2003

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (tommy14 @ Jun 23 2003, 09:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> remember, non of this is acceptable in an offical NS map!  </td></tr></table> 
I'm sure cockroaches would be!

NerdIII · June 2003

To open the example map:
right-click, save image as..., enter a name for it, go to the location where you saved the 'image', rename the extension (.jpg) to .zip and open it.

@tommy14: that sounds interesting. There are some strange differences. You are sure you saw monster_flyer_flocks, I'm sure i did not see them. Then again I am sure I saw (a lot) of crockroaches in my example map and you are sure they don't work.
Maybe you can also upload a map so we can put our experience together and get a complete list?
Thanks for the info up to know, I will 'verify' it and add it to the first post!
(I only used monster_maker so far, hence some entities are missing)

Shadowics · June 2003

Nerd : the 'image' link shows up as a red X - since it's an invalid image - so you can't right click > save as.

I was just doing a little testing with cockroachs myself and I can verify that they certainly do show up <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

NerdIII · June 2003

god damn then use Opera 7, to download the file! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>
Seems as if I have to ask the forum admin to give me some more rights...

UPDATE OF ENTITIES -> see first post!

tommy14 · June 2003

<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (NerdIII @ Jun 23 2003, 03:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> @tommy14: that sounds interesting. There are some strange differences. You are sure you saw monster_flyer_flocks, I'm sure i did not see them. Then again I am sure I saw (a lot) of crockroaches in my example map and you are sure they don't work.
Maybe you can also upload a map so we can put our experience together and get a complete list?
Thanks for the info up to know, I will 'verify' it and add it to the first post!
(I only used monster_maker so far, hence some entities are missing)  </td></tr></table> 
ok, my testing was from months ago soon after NS came out. so i don't have the map anymore. all i have left is my notes....

but my mehtod was: i just put BIG glass boxes in a room with human CC, and put some of the monster entity in the glass boxes, then noted what happened - and did it with a new series of monster entitys. that way i would not have to worry much about AI. i did not use the monster_maker, just the plain monster entitys i found in the HL/NS FGD that hadn't been "cleaned up" yet.

specifics - monster_flyer_flocks
it was a BIG room, and that was the only reason the monster_flyer_flocks showed. it turned out to be very big flock indeed, and the model went thru the glass! but AFAIK the model is "dead", there is no AI nor a series of animations, i don't remember HL even using it.
remember some of the stuff in HL was kinda a left over, un used but left in the PAK and code.

- cockroach - i NEVER saw it IN the glass box, and i looked around the room too. doesn't mean they weren't there, just i never could see the bugs. maybe i shoulda got a roach trap? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>
it could be they work, but my method of testing was faulty.

if you care, here is ALL my notes i made as well as ones i gathered from posts here about all sorts of stuff:
<table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If a func_seethrough is NOT opaque (i.e. rendered to an amount of 255 to the ground players) then it can be shot though.
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I have figured out how to make doors which are near impossible to 'screw up'.
Place the door and set its close delay to anything other than -1, leave 'use only' and 'toggle' flags unchecked.
Draw a block brush that extends either side of the door and convert it to a trigger_presence. Add the door to its 'activation target' property and leave all others blank.

The trigger will open the door and it will then close itself. Running in and out of the trigger like a nutcase has no adverse affects, at least not any I have been able to find.
Checking the 'toggle' flag in the door entity means it can easily get reversed.
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texture mem - officially a 4Meg limit.

1)Use fewer textures. If you can replace one texture by another, that's one fewer texture that Half-life has to load, which will result in lower texture memory. This is especially useful with small trim textures.

2)Reduce the size of your textures. You mentioned that you have a few 256x256 textures, so you could try resizing them to 128x128 in photoshop, re-applying the new texture, and doubling the texture scale. It won't look quite as good, but you will have reduced r_speeds and lower patches as a side effect.

3)Don't use animated textures, each frame of the animation is counted toward your texture memory. I freed like 2 meg just by taking out 1 animated texture.

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Func_Door
In normal HL these detect the presence of players and open automatically, not so in NS. If NS you have to trigger your doors using some other entitiy.

Trigger_Gravity
This doesn't work at all. Pity, it would be usefull for a space mod.

Trigger_Camera
This doesn't work at all.

gamestartedstatus
According to the official guidlines NS is supposed to fire this trigger at the start and end of a round. The NSTR used to do this. NS Doesn't.

Team_hive (target on spawn)
You can toggle the status of an entity using this property of a hive. However if a hive that is active when the map is loaded is the first hive of the game the entity gets toggled twice (once when the map is loaded and once when the game starts).

Func_Resource (target on build)
You can toggle the status of an entity using this property of a resource node. This fires once when the node is built and again about second later, just before it starts animating.
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xen

1. more aliens!

the xen light plant works - but you have to have it target a light entity to get the effect as usual.
the xen "spiking" tree works, and it will try to hit ya as it is supposed to/
the xen hair "grass" works and waves around.
the xen spore is there, i forget what it is supposed to do?

the xen tree reacts to player (kharaa or human) only, not to structures. and human turrets and alien offensives do not react to xen entity/creatures (light plant, spores, hair, tree).
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Weapons / Items can't be spawned into a map.

func beverage entity also doesn't work

func_healthcharger does not work in NS
-------------------------------------------------
func illusionary report on skins changed with smartedit off:
skin -1 is still the empty skin, as usual.
skin -3 still works as water, like always only the top texture shows. the usual for HL mods.
skin -4 works as slime, but different. usually slime is death on contact - but in NS it only kills when your feet leave the ground....again like water only the top side keeps the texture.
skin -5 works as lava still, instant death. all sides keep the texture.
skin -7 also works like water, kinda like it always did.
skin -16 has stopped working, no longer works like a ladder the way it does in all most HL mods i have tested so far.

-----------------------------------------------
func water is mostly good, one NS peculiarity is slime...
skin -1 is empty - only water top texture shows.
skin -3 is water as usual, including underwater fog.
skin -4 is supposed to be slime, but worked as plain water, no death or hurt.
skin -5 is lava, still works as instant touch death, all sides show the texture.
skin -16 is still ladder if the texture is not a ! prefix name.
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first create a multisource... name it (for example "door_source") and turn off smartedit.
click the "add" button then enter a key which is the name of the weldable ... example "door_weldable" enter in any random number for the value

next, create the weldable, name it "door_weldable" set "target to trigger on finish" to "door_source"

step three is to create the func_button... we'll call it "door_button". set it's target as "door" and it's master as "door_source"

last, create the door, name it "door" and give it a master of "door_source" (this will prevent the commander from opening the door)

and you're all done

-summing that all up, you should have:
1) a func_door with a multisource as its master
2) a func_button targetting the door and with the multisource as its master
3) a multisource with the func_weldable as a source
4) a func_weldable with "target on finish" pointing at the multisource

i had to turn off smart edit, and add a target field to the weldable. Otherwise it acted as iff nothing pointed at the MS at all...
--------------------------------------------------------

to get a welder instantly, you must have cheats on... then go into console and type "give weapon_welder"
the other useful one for map-checking is "give item_jetpack"
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There are many guaranteed bugs with marine buildings if the buildings are standing on: z-height-level 0

Some more bugs can happen if you have 2 large horizontal planes above each other.
(build structure fades throught the top plane and (hopefully) stops in the lower plane...)
Then use func_seethrough on the upper level and/or func_nobuild (not correct name, cant remember) on the vertical areas.
Smal horizontal places above each others dont make thoose bugs.
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If you are creating the texture yourself I have heard it said that using capitals for the name, and using odd characters like underscores can cause problems.
In my map I had a conveyor, and it mysteriously didn't work, I then changed the name from "SCROLL_CONV01" to "scroll_CONV01" and for some strange reason it started working.

also

If a 'scroll' texture was anywhere on the brush, this is probably what made the textures move. 'Scroll' textures are funny if used anywhere except on a func_conveyor.

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put the marine spawn at the "south" end of the map so that when marines leave their spawn area, "left" and "right" from the marine (first person) view matches "left and right" from the comm view. as an example, eclipse unfortunately is backwards so if you say "need a turret at left entrance" the commander will put it on the RIGHT side from the first person view. this is subtle but helps the marines communicate effectively
-------------------------------------------

monsters:

work? monster_barney_dead, monster_barney (talks and shoots at other HL monsters.), monster_alien_grunt, monster_flyer_flock, monster_alien_controler, monster_bullchicken, monster_bloater, monster_hevsuit_dead, monster_hgrunt_dead, monster_human_grunt, monster_leech, monster_miniturret, monster_sentry, monster_snark, monster_turret .

do not work? monster_alien_slave, monster_cockroach, monster_babycrab, monster_barnacle, monster_headcrab, monster_gman, monster_human_assassin, monster_grunt_repel, monster_ichthyosaur, monster_houndeye, monster_rat, monster_satchelcharge, monster_scientist, monster_scientist_dead, monster_sitting_scientist, monster_tentacle, monster_tripmine, monster_zombie.

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both a regular func_train and a func_tracktrain that worked fine.
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You can kill a marine resource tower with a trigger_hurt that does 10,000 damage, and an alien resource tower with only 7,000
----------------------------------------------------------------

monster_osprey, monster_apache, monster_nihilanth, monster_gargantua do NOT work.

monster_bigmomma DOES work, kinda.

func friction does NOT work.

phasegate, turret, siegeturret do not work.

cycler, cycler_weapon do work to show most models, but the model cannot be interacted with - ie no shooting gun to be picked up, no operating turrets. there is a clip brush so it seems solid.

cycler_sprite also shows a model, but it does not clip it. of course it also shows animated sprites....

env_sprite cycler_sprite also shows a model, but it does not clip it. of course it also does sprites....

env_shake, env_funnel work.

game_score i could not test, my sv_cheats did not show if score changed.
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I also recomend that you don't have any brush entities larger than 316 in any dimension, apparently these are always 'visible' to HL, even if you don't have line of sight to them.
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env_gamma modifies the gamma ramp, so if you don't put any on your map, nothing will make the gamma change, it'll use the last map's env_gamma. so Just put an env_gamma, and set it to 1 (if you like it that way)

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Allocblock full error in NS is often caused by the info locations,
until the next version try to keep info locations less than 32 high for major mem savings.
another that *might* help is to scale up 4x textures that are invisible - SKY, AAATRIGGER, {invisible, SEETHROUGH, any texture made invisible with fx 0.

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TF range = 1200 units diameter = 600 radius
seige cannon range = 1100 units
combined range from TF to max is 1700 one way. 3800+ space between hives?

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remember env_sound can mess up your map from someone else's previous map.
so put an env_sound around spawns to restore sound to normal.

</td></tr></table>

Carling · June 2003

Snarks do bite dmg on my server just not bomb dmg.. lol.

NerdIII · June 2003

hey tommy, quite a nice list! Took you ages to compile it, right? Though beverage still works, it is in my test map and is triggered by a trigger_multiple just above the rusty step on the floor.

@Carling: You set some of the server variables, right? A pity that they can not be set by a map entity <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>

NEW DOWNLOAD LOCATION (see first post)

tommy14 · June 2003

now all you got to do is test it in multi play and see what still works - i bet a lot of AI will not.

NerdIII · June 2003

damn, that was what i forgot about <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>
why didn't you come up with that a bit earlier??? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'>
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

tommy14 · July 2003

since NS2 is supposed to come out at the end of July, are you gonna retest everything then?

BlackPanther · July 2003

I'd love to see trigger_camera entity work in NS. Would bring a whole new feel for marines who want to enter a room and know whats in it before they do.

NerdIII · July 2003

Hey Panther you could still use trigger_presence and mark them on a mini version of the map.
And yes I will test the entities again in NS 2.0, though to be honest I believe that Flayra - while cleaning up his code - deletes all the unnecessary entities. (PLEASE DON'T DO IT FLAYRA! DO YOU HEAR ME???)

KungFuSquirrel · July 2003

I specifically deleted them all from the new .fgd. Whether or not they still work, I have no idea.

NerdIII · July 2003

It is for funmaps only, anyway - although a few xen trees here and there make the game even more hazardeous. Well, you could leave the xen_entities in at least. They all work perfectly. For the other entities (fun)mappers will have to use QuArK now. I support QuArK so I will keep the list up to date and hope the one or the other mapper with a Hammer will upgrade to more actual tools that incorporate the latest development in atomic physics and a Phyton. (don't think tooo much about it)

tommy14 · July 2003

we don't HAVE to be limited to quark, the FGD is just a text file and quite editable to make a custom version with most of the ZEN & other HL entities in it - then you can see if they work, and release the FGD as a NS_fun.fgd ! <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

NerdIII · July 2003

*lol* Not a bad idea at all.

Remaining Half-life Monsters In Natural-selection

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