Ns_nancy Strategy
Stoneburg
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
Join Date: 2002-11-11 Member: 8174Members
<div class="IPBDescription">against competent Marine teams</div> If you have played ns_nancy against a good and decent-sized (8-10) Marine team you know how hard it is. Usually it goes someting like: Marines secure mess hall, Marines win. Mess Hall is by far the most strategically valuable area on any map. A marine team that holds mess hall has pretty much the run of the map, if they take it early. I actually stopped playing Marine on nancy just because it became far to easy after people realised this. Drop 2 IP's, have your whole team rush mess hall, drop an armory and some mines there. Then start putting pressure on the hive while you take the whol map, or, if aliens are in Sub Space, just walk up and Siege it from MI. Anyway, it is far too easy for marines to win on this map (about 98% on an otherwise 60/40 server).
Now, here's how we've managed to win it as aliens.
The problem is (of course) holding Mes Hall. At the start of the game, before carapace is availabe, it is simply impossible for Aliens to hold any location that the Marines are determined to take. Marines are initially more powerful then Aliens, and their spawn-rate is much greater, actually as high as they want. So, you don't hold it with skulks, you hold it with gorges.
In the beginning of the round, the WHOLE Alien team needs to rush to Mess Hall. If you Manage to beat off the Marines that may be in there already when you arrive, have 3 people go gorge. EVERYONE stay in Mess Hall. When defending Mess Hall there are only three rules:
1. Be there. If you're not in Mess (or on your way there after spawning) you suck.
2. Keep the door closed. Use parasite or spit to KEEP THE DOOR CLOSED. Marines open it, you close it, repeat.
3. DON'T GO OUT! If you go out the door, you're an idiot. You're moving away from a room that offers great attack opportunities into a long hallway that offers a great opportunity to get shot down like a n00b.
When Marines attack, close the door!! Usually this will 'stagger' their attack and you will be up against 2-3 Marines instead of the whole team. Most Marines will go for the gorges, giving the skulks an easy target. Gorges should only use their heal-spray, jumping around wildly to avoid dying and at the same time healspraying friends and foes. Do NOT waste your energy, you WILL run out. Take every opportunity to regain it.
I have yet to see a Marine team take Mess Hall against 3 Gorges & 5+ skulks, this will sooner or later cause them to switch tactics. You can usually count on 2-5 serious attempts from the Marines on Mess before they give up, now they will switch and go for Aux Gen, which is next door. LET THEM.
You WANT the Marines to spend resources in Aux Gen and NoName Hive. Why? Because if they don't spend the res on buildings they will spend them on upgrades, it is easier to destroy buildings, but not now. Just hold Mess Hall. One skulk (and ONLY one!) can harass the Marines in Aux Gen, we are waiting for something to happen.
As soon as the gorges reach 14 res they drop a D-chamber, in the Res Node corner of Mess Hall. This is the signal. The moment lvl3 carapace is available skulks attack out. Stay in formation though. The main objective now is to kill Aux Gen and NoName. This should not present a problem to a full team of lvl3 cara skulks and gorges. However, you HAVE to leave at least 2 skulks (or 1 skulk and 1 gorge) in Mess Hall. This is imperative, you can not afford to lose your 3 D's.
After you clear out Aux Gen, which should be easy since you can back up against the wall and get healed by the chambers in Mess, kill NoName. When these two areas are cleared, we switch to containment.
There are two areas that need to be defended now, Mess Hall and Crew Lockers (right outside Aux Gen, on the way to MB). Mess Hall is easy now, with 3 D-chambers in there, so the Majority should be defending Crew Lockers. Try to take out the RT right outside MB if you can, but make sure you don't end up with a long spawn cue. Usually a gorge suicides now, since there is no need for 3 anymore, and the remaining 2 hang around Crew Lockers.
Now you have to decide wether to go for Res or focus on Containment. It is preferable to get the Mess Hall and Aux Gen RT up. Don't bother getting any more though, instead, spend the resources on a stack of DC's in Crew Lockers. If you stack them in the corner closest to Marine Base, your skulsk will be able to heal through the wall at the Res Node right outside MB. Once some DC's are up here, one gorge heads off, and all the skulks concentrate on now containing the Marines to their base and the area just outside it.
One gorge stays to keep building DC's until they are maxed out, and fills up Crew Lockers and Mess Hall with OC's, the other caps all the RT's on the map. As soon as he is done capping, he and the other gorge heads for the two open hives. Hives should be started simultaneously and as soon as that is done, defended against JP:ers. Don't be afraid to spend the Res, anything less then 8 OC's and 8 DC's in the hives is just stupid. If Marines aren't already defeated, Onos and Fades will do the trick once the hives go up.
Now, here's what you need to think of when doing this, in chronological order:
PRE-CARAPACE
- Don't let the gorges die. In the beginning, this is your big investment. It's not a disaster if one dies, but make sure someone else gorges up immediatly, you want and need 3 gorges all the time.
- Look out for rambos/scouts. This is extremely important. The only time I've lost with this tactic, we somehow let a Marine through to Port, he built a PG and Marines were all over the Map. Marines are NOT allowed anywhere other then Aux Gen and NoName.
- Stay together. Unless a Marine has been spotted on 'your' side of the map (ie: not in Aux or NoName), do NOT leave Mess Hall. Really. I'm not kidding. If you at any time have less then 80% of your team in Mess Hall, you might lose. With one guy checking/parasiting/harassing Aux Gen, you don't NEED to be anywhere else, the Marines will come to you.
POST-CARAPACE
- If you do a good job of containing, they probably have jetpacks. This is why you LET them build in Aux Gen and NoName, to slow down JP's, then you kill AUx Gen and NoName and they are back to square one. After you kill Aux Gen and NoName, scout the map for PG's, then stay alert for JP's in the vents. Make SURE to parasite JP:ers before you attack them, a parasited JP:er is almost useless in this scenario.
- Keep defending Mess Hall. Until the OC's are up, Mess Hall should NEVER be empty before it has (plenty of) OC's. This is extremely important, especially before you get the Crew Locker D's up, but after as well. Remember, it is about Resources and Chokepoints.
- Kill Marine Structures. Once you have Crew Lockers secured it is easy to attack MB, go for the expensive structures. Ignore IP's and everything, just go for the Proto Lab. If they don't have a Proto, go for the Obs. No Obs? Arms Lab/Armory/RT. Just make the Marines bleed resources and slow down their teching.
This is a *very* un-orthodox tactic. As such, it requires some 'teamwork', but actually not that much, you just need people to stay in one place. If your team doesn't want to work together, don't even try this. It is also an original and 'new' tactic. I have had several players from the 'big' clans go "3 gorges, n00b team" and disconnect when we implement it, thus missing out on the sweet victory. So don't expect everyone to be up for it, but it works [<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->]
Anyway, this was in response to the "Stop posting bad strategies" thing. Enjoy.
Now, here's how we've managed to win it as aliens.
The problem is (of course) holding Mes Hall. At the start of the game, before carapace is availabe, it is simply impossible for Aliens to hold any location that the Marines are determined to take. Marines are initially more powerful then Aliens, and their spawn-rate is much greater, actually as high as they want. So, you don't hold it with skulks, you hold it with gorges.
In the beginning of the round, the WHOLE Alien team needs to rush to Mess Hall. If you Manage to beat off the Marines that may be in there already when you arrive, have 3 people go gorge. EVERYONE stay in Mess Hall. When defending Mess Hall there are only three rules:
1. Be there. If you're not in Mess (or on your way there after spawning) you suck.
2. Keep the door closed. Use parasite or spit to KEEP THE DOOR CLOSED. Marines open it, you close it, repeat.
3. DON'T GO OUT! If you go out the door, you're an idiot. You're moving away from a room that offers great attack opportunities into a long hallway that offers a great opportunity to get shot down like a n00b.
When Marines attack, close the door!! Usually this will 'stagger' their attack and you will be up against 2-3 Marines instead of the whole team. Most Marines will go for the gorges, giving the skulks an easy target. Gorges should only use their heal-spray, jumping around wildly to avoid dying and at the same time healspraying friends and foes. Do NOT waste your energy, you WILL run out. Take every opportunity to regain it.
I have yet to see a Marine team take Mess Hall against 3 Gorges & 5+ skulks, this will sooner or later cause them to switch tactics. You can usually count on 2-5 serious attempts from the Marines on Mess before they give up, now they will switch and go for Aux Gen, which is next door. LET THEM.
You WANT the Marines to spend resources in Aux Gen and NoName Hive. Why? Because if they don't spend the res on buildings they will spend them on upgrades, it is easier to destroy buildings, but not now. Just hold Mess Hall. One skulk (and ONLY one!) can harass the Marines in Aux Gen, we are waiting for something to happen.
As soon as the gorges reach 14 res they drop a D-chamber, in the Res Node corner of Mess Hall. This is the signal. The moment lvl3 carapace is available skulks attack out. Stay in formation though. The main objective now is to kill Aux Gen and NoName. This should not present a problem to a full team of lvl3 cara skulks and gorges. However, you HAVE to leave at least 2 skulks (or 1 skulk and 1 gorge) in Mess Hall. This is imperative, you can not afford to lose your 3 D's.
After you clear out Aux Gen, which should be easy since you can back up against the wall and get healed by the chambers in Mess, kill NoName. When these two areas are cleared, we switch to containment.
There are two areas that need to be defended now, Mess Hall and Crew Lockers (right outside Aux Gen, on the way to MB). Mess Hall is easy now, with 3 D-chambers in there, so the Majority should be defending Crew Lockers. Try to take out the RT right outside MB if you can, but make sure you don't end up with a long spawn cue. Usually a gorge suicides now, since there is no need for 3 anymore, and the remaining 2 hang around Crew Lockers.
Now you have to decide wether to go for Res or focus on Containment. It is preferable to get the Mess Hall and Aux Gen RT up. Don't bother getting any more though, instead, spend the resources on a stack of DC's in Crew Lockers. If you stack them in the corner closest to Marine Base, your skulsk will be able to heal through the wall at the Res Node right outside MB. Once some DC's are up here, one gorge heads off, and all the skulks concentrate on now containing the Marines to their base and the area just outside it.
One gorge stays to keep building DC's until they are maxed out, and fills up Crew Lockers and Mess Hall with OC's, the other caps all the RT's on the map. As soon as he is done capping, he and the other gorge heads for the two open hives. Hives should be started simultaneously and as soon as that is done, defended against JP:ers. Don't be afraid to spend the Res, anything less then 8 OC's and 8 DC's in the hives is just stupid. If Marines aren't already defeated, Onos and Fades will do the trick once the hives go up.
Now, here's what you need to think of when doing this, in chronological order:
PRE-CARAPACE
- Don't let the gorges die. In the beginning, this is your big investment. It's not a disaster if one dies, but make sure someone else gorges up immediatly, you want and need 3 gorges all the time.
- Look out for rambos/scouts. This is extremely important. The only time I've lost with this tactic, we somehow let a Marine through to Port, he built a PG and Marines were all over the Map. Marines are NOT allowed anywhere other then Aux Gen and NoName.
- Stay together. Unless a Marine has been spotted on 'your' side of the map (ie: not in Aux or NoName), do NOT leave Mess Hall. Really. I'm not kidding. If you at any time have less then 80% of your team in Mess Hall, you might lose. With one guy checking/parasiting/harassing Aux Gen, you don't NEED to be anywhere else, the Marines will come to you.
POST-CARAPACE
- If you do a good job of containing, they probably have jetpacks. This is why you LET them build in Aux Gen and NoName, to slow down JP's, then you kill AUx Gen and NoName and they are back to square one. After you kill Aux Gen and NoName, scout the map for PG's, then stay alert for JP's in the vents. Make SURE to parasite JP:ers before you attack them, a parasited JP:er is almost useless in this scenario.
- Keep defending Mess Hall. Until the OC's are up, Mess Hall should NEVER be empty before it has (plenty of) OC's. This is extremely important, especially before you get the Crew Locker D's up, but after as well. Remember, it is about Resources and Chokepoints.
- Kill Marine Structures. Once you have Crew Lockers secured it is easy to attack MB, go for the expensive structures. Ignore IP's and everything, just go for the Proto Lab. If they don't have a Proto, go for the Obs. No Obs? Arms Lab/Armory/RT. Just make the Marines bleed resources and slow down their teching.
This is a *very* un-orthodox tactic. As such, it requires some 'teamwork', but actually not that much, you just need people to stay in one place. If your team doesn't want to work together, don't even try this. It is also an original and 'new' tactic. I have had several players from the 'big' clans go "3 gorges, n00b team" and disconnect when we implement it, thus missing out on the sweet victory. So don't expect everyone to be up for it, but it works [<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->]
Anyway, this was in response to the "Stop posting bad strategies" thing. Enjoy.
Comments
i can see how it could work though, very nice <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
1) With the node right outside of their base, the node in aux gen, and MAYBE the one in nonam eitself, and plus the original node, the marines can tech up to jp/hmg EASILY by just guarding the nodes and LETTING you have messhall. Then they can zip thru the vents and shoot subspace or port at their leisure.
2) If the marines are decent shots at all, they CAN build a seige if they want for only the price of an upgraded TF (which is what? 55 res?) and a seige which adds up to about 70. And then it's bye-bye D-chambers, and a res tower, and any o chambers you put up for you. And do you know how LONG it takes for 3 gorges to save up f they're ALL in messhall not capping any otehr nodes? The marines don't have to put turrets up because it's down a LONG hallway, and marines can tear up skulks that charge. Besides, you said not to go out the door anyways.
3) MArines can be INCREDIBLY sneaky. If the aliens hold my marines off in messhall I usually send my marines thry the vents to port. From there they can get to the other hives and start shooting the hive and spawn camping if the aliens are ALL in messhall. Or, send a few rambos to shoot the hives to alert the aliens so the aliens leave messhall, and then have the brunt of the marine team charge in and destroy everything. If mariens research MT, then this is even easier. As much as containment is nice, the aliens just can't camp one place and expect to win.
Oh by the way. I think if the comm REALLY wants he can drop a comm chair to hold the door open.
EASILY by just guarding the nodes and LETTING you have messhall. Then they can zip thru the vents and shoot subspace or port at their leisure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You only let them have those nodes for a limited time, probably not even long enough for them to make a real profit. Here is the time lines:
Marines--Rush Mess----Attacks Mess----------Takes Aux---Builds in NoName
Aliens---Rush Mess----Guards Mess----------3 D is up--Kills Aux-----kills NoName
Besides, the stem of your argument is basically that anything other then immediatly killing their IP's is "letting them" tech up to JP/HMG, know what I mean? In this
scenario you let them take Aux and Noname, so they spend res, you keep an eye out of JP:ers. The vents do NOT allow for a JP:er to get out unnoticed if aliens are holding
Crew Lockers and Mess Hall. And with D setup in those places, JP's/HMG's aren't a real problem. A JP/HMG:er in Mess Hall or Crew lockers is easy to kill, low ceilings and D
chambers healing you. Same thing with the vents most of the time..
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2) If the marines are decent shots at all, they CAN build a seige if they want for only the price of an upgraded TF (which is what? 55 res?) and a seige which adds
up to about 70. And then it's bye-bye D-chambers, and a res tower, and any o chambers you put up for you. And do you know how LONG it takes for 3 gorges to save up f
they're ALL in messhall not capping any otehr nodes? The marines don't have to put turrets up because it's down a LONG hallway, and marines can tear up skulks that charge.
Besides, you said not to go out the door anyways.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
70 + 25 (for obs) and 12 for pinging = 107 pts
3D chambers = 42 pts
Ok, so the Marines spend more then twice the res to combat the aliens, that's ok. I actually used to think that this strat was vulnerable to siege but still...
- Building a TF+Siege that early is going to hurt Marine morale
- Spending 100+ res will slow down the tech anyway
- Unless you build T's or leave Marines to guard it the TF and SC will go down pretty quickly
And also, the Marines have a short window of opportunity to build the Siege. After the 3 D go up but before you take Crew lOCKERS. Once you have Crew Lockers they will have
to build TWO siege location to get you out of Mess Hall, and if you can get Marines to spend 200+ resources sieging DC's at the point in the game where you are about to
start 2 hives, you've won.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) MArines can be INCREDIBLY sneaky. If the aliens hold my marines off in messhall I usually send my marines thry the vents to port. From there they can get to the
other hives and start shooting the hive and spawn camping if the aliens are ALL in messhall. Or, send a few rambos to shoot the hives to alert the aliens so the aliens
leave messhall, and then have the brunt of the marine team charge in and destroy everything. If mariens research MT, then this is even easier. As much as containment is
nice, the aliens just can't camp one place and expect to win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
LoL! You call that "INCREDIBLY sneaky"??
As I said in the initial post, you have to expect this. If Aliens hold Mess Hall marines WILL try to go through Aux Gen, you can let them get NoName but NOT get out on the
Map, ie: to Port through Sub Tunnel.
And: "the aliens just can't camp one place and expect to win." They can camp a series of places in a certain order and win, big.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh by the way. I think if the comm REALLY wants he can drop a comm chair to hold the door open.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah. 30 res down the drain and he just made it even easier for the aliens to defend Mess, gj com!!
There' nothing new here, your three scenarios are just what the tactic is tweaked against. Basically you are proving the validity of it by EXACTLY mimicing the
anticipated Marine moves.
Ive been thinking, and my conclusion is that you should not build in mess hall, rather you should build the first 3 d chambers in the corner of crew lockers. Thus allowing the skulks to move up to the res node outside their base.
Assuming that the skill of the teams are decent and equal on both sides, if you allow marines to have several res nodes they can easily afford to siege mess, and also purchase upgrades.
It does cost marines more to siege than it costs to build 3 d chambers, but the cost comparison is not the only factor, aliens have sacrificed a great deal of their economy by not building res nodes, and they have also lost their investment in defense chambers, leaving them at a disadvantage.
to sum up my thoughts on this plan:
1) It could be improved by being more aggressive sooner
2) Expect to lose if your containment at auxgen/mess is not flawless
3) Marines cannot be allowed to have res nodes,
4) This is probably the best shot aliens have got for winning nancy.
the ailens will all be in mess hall repelling the attackand will not get back to the hives in time so my 1 marine will sit on top and empty a couple of clips into it.
Hive will be dead, if we are lucky, the other marines will have succeeded in taking mess hall, if we are unlucky, mess hall will not have fallen.
the jp then heads off to any other hive that may be in progress.
when i get some more res, i give out a few more jp hmg welder and send them off as backup for the original
Do you mean that you defend Mess until you can afford 3 D *then* go to Crew Lockers to drop the D? Could work I guess. I am assuming that this is what you mean, since defending Crew Lockers without holding Mess Hall is pointless. I still have some strong doubts about this version though
- Moving from Mess Hall without leaving D + skulks to Crew Lockers leaves Mess wide open. If you leave enough to defend it, you may not beable to take Crew Lockers.
- More importantly, this leaves no room for Marine expansion. If actually DO manage to put the first choke up at the MB you will be containing the Marines to their spawn. The problem with this is that it is way too easy for Marines to attack out (proximity of spawns) and/or siege, in case they don't just opt for teching on one res node and camping base. Mess Hall is pretty much between MB and the hives, making it nuch easier to hold from a 'logistic' point of view.
- Getting to Crew Lockers is harder then getting to Mess Hall. Everyone knows where Mess Hall is and unless you spawn in NN it's hard to get Crew Lockers.
If the idea to move immediatly to Crew Lockers is to avoid the "sneaky marine" scebario (ie: one gets through and gets a PG up somewhere) then I would rather stick to Mess Hall and trust my team to be vigilant. The time we lost with this strat, I was a gorge in Mess, I actually *saw* a yellow blip for half a second somewhere between Sub Space and Port (I guess a skulk ranpast him without noticing), I just didn't push the team hard enough to go get him, something I regret of course. Anyway, this tactic of course doesn't give a "guaranteed win" like all the other tactics presented on this forum, but it *does* give the Aliens a good chance of winning, unlike all other Alien strats I know.
bogglestiensky:
As I said earlier, that is exactly what Marines do most of the time. You will NOT get JP/HMG before 3 D's are up though, and with 3 D's in Mess against unupgraded Marines, Aliens can hold it with 2-3 skulks. Hell, I've held it as a gorge with just one skulk companion against a rush of 6-7 Marines. JP:ers can not get out without being noticed, and as soon as the "JP's!" call goes out people shoul be on their guard. Once again, this is exactly what Marines do most of the time, and if the Aliens have their act together it usually fails. A better shot would be to have most of the team rush Mess as a distraction just to cover the noise of the JP:er, once he gets past Mess Hall he should try to sneak up a PG. If you assume that your Marine team i co-ordinated enough to pull off flanking, co-ordinated attacks, distractions and JetPack ninjaing (actually knowing when to do what) then you can't assume that the Aliens are just a bunch of n00bs.
If aliens follow these guidelines, they have a chance. That is the difference. On the server I play, nancy is (was?) known as ns_marines_always_win. Every other Alien strategy basically boils down to: Let the Marines have Mess Hall, then lose. The old "truth" is that: <i>aliens can not hold an area that the marines want</i>, especially early game, before carapace. The way to change this is multiple gorges and that is what this tactic is based on.
Also, what do you do if aliens start at noname?
One more thing: I think depending on what hive you have the marines can definitely run to messhal before the aliens can. And DEFINITELY before the aliens evolve into gorges.
EDIT: There is one fast counter to this. Won't work 100% of the time, but has a good chance: Shotgun rush. You'll have no D chambers up by that time, plus all their hits are one hit kills, so your heal spray will do jack squat.
then the gorges move into crew lockers and drop 3 d in that corner which allows healing through the wall at the res node near marine start. so with these d chambers you can still block marines from mess/ aux gen but now you can cover the res node as well.
now have 1 gorge stay to support the containment team, and the other gorges run off and start capping nodes. or possibly have a one gorge go back to skulk, maybe even 2. with 3 d chambers and level 3 carapace, there isn't any reason a whole team of skulks should let a marine escape. so marines will have only their base node.
My main purpose in suggesting an early move to crew lockers is to cut the marines off from the second res node. No decent commander is going to just build turrets in no-name or whatever while you secure mess at your leisure, if you give them an inch they will tech you by a mile.
also, if they want to siege you out, they will have to do it on 1 node, and they will have to build the siege very close to their spawn. So you then fall back to the original mess hall / aux gen choke points, and build the d chambers that you originally proposed. Now the marines have to siege you AGAIN. (hopefully by this time you have some res nodes elsewhere and can afford to build a couple things.
In my experiences seeing aliens do this on cofr, if the containment is not perfect aliens lose. and if aliens are content to only hold mess hall, they are too easily sieged.
Faster then with one gorge. It's pretty fast actually, try it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'd imagine it won't be any faster than one gorge building a RT first, and then dropping 3 D towers.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for once AGAIN showing that you don't understand the point. It is not about the economy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, you are SCREWING over your economy this way.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NO WAY!! Really?!? OMG!!! I had no idea!! I am such an idiot!! The ECONOMY?!? Man, I totlly had absolutely no idea.. you mean it hurts the ECONOMY!??!?!??!!??! OMG FFS BBQ!!
Yeah, you kinda missed the point.
The rest of your post goes on and on about how if Marines get through you will lose (imagine that, if your tactic fails, you lose!?) or tell me things that you hold as true, like Marines with JP's will get to the hive and aliens can't do anjything about it, that doesn't really match Real Life™.
Here's the thing, I can sit here all day and defned the basic idea behind the strat or the specifics of it. You can keep missing the point, repeating yourself, and stating the mot obvious and easily counterable tactics as "ingenious". It won't change anything. This tactic gives you something against a competent marine team that no other tactic I know of will: A fighting chance.
If you don't have a problem winning nancy with your incredibly original "One gorge build 2-3 RT's, 3 D's and save for hive" then this strat is NOT FOR YOU.
Oh, and if I say "If you hold A you win", you saying "No, because if you lose A you lose" isn't really a good argument.
And I don't listen to any "economy" arguments because they are just ignorant. Res that you can't spend is worthless. In theory you will get a better economy with one or two gorges, and I'm sure that will be a great comfort when you're being spawncamped. "Hey guys, sure, we're all in the spawn que but IF we had someone alive and the Marines didn't totally own the hives, we could have gotten one up.. great huh?"
- NoName Hive -
I forgot to mention this. If you start in NoName you have a good chance for either a quick win or forced relocation. When the round starts half the team runs to Mess Hall (as usual) and the other half run through Crew Lockers to Marine base (the roundabout way, don't show yourself. Once Marines hit Mess Hall this second team attacks their base. Unless Keyser is COM and jumps out and kills you all, you should be able to force them to relocate. Usually you eat 2 IP's and the RT, and force the reloc to Mess Hall, or you eat some IP's and manage to secure Mess Hall.
- Not Getting To Mess -
Twice when I played Marines got there first or cleaned out the first wave. Don't attack, wait until your WHOLE team i there and have 2-3 people gorge up, THEN attack. If you die, tough luck, you lost.
Breakfast:
I just doubt you will be ABLE to push the Marines that far back that early, and I feel that dropping the D in MEss is a lot safer. I suggest you try your idea out and see how it works.
And come on... if the containment isn't perfect, you lose. I HAVE BEEN SAYING THAT ALL THE TIME!! It is in the INITIAL POST.
Let me make it clear then: <span style='color:red'><b><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>If the containment isn't perfect, you LOSE</span></b></span>
Clear? Good.
Here's the thing:
If you DON'T have trouble winning as Alien on nancy, DON'T BOTHER READING OR POSTING.
Oh if you're going for perfect containment anyways, why not use sensory chambers?
Heh, yeah <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Perfect containment is like... impossible? Only time I see unupgraded skulks contain marines is when they outskill them 100-0. Even if the whole team is trying to contain and with gorges. Stoneburg's strategy is too ideal. Might work, most likely not. Huge chance of failing and ruining the game for aliens. Besides, I've never seen marines auto-win the minute they get Mess Hall. They still have to get to Mother Interface to lock Subspace (usually gorges put OCs in mother if marines get mess) and going to Port is no small thing. You might be able to keep Mess Hall if all your team is there, but Aux as well? Come on. By the time you have WOLed mess with your crippled economy, marines will have Aux, Unnamed and people waiting in Port for a PG. Aux is nice terrain for skulks, but if they succeed in PGing unnamed and port, it's game over. Nice 2 hive-lockdown and the camp-teching begins.
Still, I'd love to test that strategy although it sounds cheesy.
Heh, yeah <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Perfect containment is like... impossible? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Perfect containment is like... completely doable. Since if you follow the strategy you only have to hold two places, Crew Lockers and Mess Hall, until Marines get Jet Packs. The 6 times I have implemented this strategy we have won 5, the loss came from failed containment as I described ealier, one marine got through and built a PG.
Yes, if you fail implementing the tactic, you will lose. If you let Marines destroy your initial DC's, especially before you get 2 T's and Crew Locker DC's up, you are in real trouble.
To summarize:
- If you FAIL to implement the strategy, you lose (duh!)
- You actually have to WORK and use your brain to win
If you play on a server where Marines don't always wn on nancy, where Marines holding Mess Hall does NOT always equal a slow (or fast) painful loss then by all means do NOT use this strategy.
If, however, you plan to critisise it, don't keep posting platitudes like "If you let the Marines get through and kill your hives, you lose". Actually, before you critisise it, try it. I'm basing all my opinions on experience (backed up by knowledge of game physics) not speculation. And if you're going for the speculation route, at least be *original* .
Did I mention that unless the Marines always win you shouldn't try it? I think I did.
And since there ARE probably people on the forum that will think "Sensory chambers.. yeah!" let me point out hat the tactic is rather obviously based on...
- Healspray from multiple gorges making it possible for aliens to hold a position pre-carapace
- DC's healing range ignoring walls
- Getting DC's (thus carapace) quickly will allow Aliens to dominate the map long enough to clear up Marine expansion
if marines control mess, aliens chances of holding mother interface are very poor.
so marines take mother, now they have 3-4 nodes, they can siege subspace, they can siege the res outside aux command from mother, and they can siege aux gen.
now marines have 3-5 nodes and aliens cannot have more than 2
even if aliens managed to get the second hive up (assuming they didnt start in sub and die to siege already) they will only have 2 res, which means they will not be able to afford a strong enough army to fight the marines bases, which are by now well entrenched.
from this situation, it is a simple matter to siege port engine (especially if you do it before the second hive is done)
One Marine stays behind to build 2 IP's, build nothing else. Everyone else rush Mess Hall. As soon as they take Mess, drop an Armory. Get some mines on the ground, cap Mess and have the next Marine to spawn cap the res outside base. It will be guarded by default since the Marines are always walking past it on their way to Mess Hall for ammo. If Aliens start in Port or NoName, have 2 Marines go to MI then SS to cap it, while the rest move towards the hive. Keep the Marines busy attacking so they die, that way your base and Mess is constantly defended by freshly spawned rines against ninja-skulks. If a skulk somehow manage to start chewing the IP's, just jump out and shoot him, the IP's are at the bottom of the ramp so you can't miss. If they had NoName or Port, you now have 5 nodes, if they had Sub Space, you are now sieging their hive from MI while a marine or two is capping Aux and NN... blah blah.. yada yada.. easy win. The only thing I have seen beat this (pretty standard by now) tactic (that I invented! <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->) is the above one.
Mess Hall is in my opinion by far the most important spot on any map. More so then Processing on hera, cargo on nothing or tanith etc.
Really? Every game that I comm Nancy the first thing I do after I build an IP and an armory is to drop mines and have the marines bring it to mess hall. I don't even stop and take the RT right outside marine start -- I delay doing that because Mess Hall is too important to lose. Once I mine up the place, I get the RT and turrets up. From that point on it's smooth sailing.
Whichever hive the aliens start in, I grab RTs on the opposite side of the map, and that hive. Then I siege port, even before the second hive is up.
Occasionally, I find that the aliens first hive is port. It doesn't make it any less easy to siege. Occasionally, I find that it's their only hive and I just won. Usually, though, they built in the hive that I didn't make a trail of RT's toward, and it's just an easy JP/HMG (or even just LMG!) mopup from there.
I believe this is the strat that Stoneburg is trying to counter.
To Stoneburg -- a well thought out alien strategy. It just might be the counter to what I usually do. I'm interested in seeing how it works, from a personal level. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Maybe we'll see each other on CoFR sometimes, my name is [UCB]Dragonrider
PS: Oh, and Alien economy isn't always the supreme objective. Multiple gorges are very cool. Once, it was a 2v2 on Tanith, and on aliens it was Kyreinn and I. I suggested to him that we both gorge and defend each other that way. We secured RR and started getting D and RTs. In a little bit into the game, some more aliens started to join. I was afraid they'd be like, 'OMG, n00b team 2 gorges f4!!!!11one'. I was pleasantly surprised when, instead of complaining, half of them ALSO went gorge. We ended up winning once the D chambers went up -- right after that we rushed the marine base and took them out. The Marines accused us of hacking because we owned them with a gorge rush. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Happy skulking
SO hopefully you have equal tech to counter the (oh so over used) JP/HMG assault. (equal tech to counter the JP rush isnt hard to achieve because if they tech straight to JP HMG they can only have lvl1 guns and armour on those two nodes, if they dont want the kharaa to have 3 hives by the time they get going. (tryed and tested btw))
recently I have been thinking that not all 3 gorges should build d chambers.
with multiple gorges healing each other + skulks, they are very tough even without carapace.
so I think you should plan to have 1 gorge build d chambers, and the other 2 save for res nodes.
the level 1 carapace + all that healing will be pretty nice, but this plan is adaptable. The key I think is: the less d chambers you need to hold mess the better.
if it becomes apparent that 1 d is not enough, then 1 or 2 of the saving gorges can also build d. but if you ARE able to hold mess with only 1 d, or even 2, you will be giving your economy a big boost by getting res nodes several minutes sooner.
oh and never make mess hall your first res node, ive seen gorges build d chambers in mess, then make their first res in mess as well. Then the marines siege and destroy it all. now it is like 10 minutes into the game and aliens have nothing at all.
SO hopefully you have equal tech to counter the (oh so over used) JP/HMG assault. (equal tech to counter the JP rush isnt hard to achieve because if they tech straight to JP HMG they can only have lvl1 guns and armour on those two nodes, if they dont want the kharaa to have 3 hives by the time they get going. (tryed and tested btw)) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err... try reading more then the first sentence of my post?
Breakfast: You can tweak it all you want, but when you're up against a good Marine team I bet you will want the 3 D's before any RT's. 1 D doesn't make much difference carapace-wise and doesn't heal enough to help out the gorges.
Good point about the RT in Mess Hall though, it will make it extra vulnerable to siege, on the other hand it will be extremely easy to defend against everything *other* then siege so it's a judgement call.