Hmmm... What Did I Do Wrong?
weggy
Join Date: 2003-06-04 Member: 16998Members
Join Date: 2003-06-04 Member: 16998Members
<div class="IPBDescription">A commanding attempt</div> Well, after playing NS for about 2 weeks, I finally tried my shot at commanding. It was on Eclipse, my personal favorite map and the only one I know really well. This could get a little bit confusing, but try to bear with me...
I got down an IP fast, and immediatly thereafter an armory. I dropped 2 packs of mines, and people put them up at the doors. I dropped another IP, as well as an observatory. I sent 2 marines to Station Access Alpha to get the node there. I gave them 1 pack of mines to secure it. They built the node, and I told everyone to move to Maintinence Access to secure it - except for 1 person to stay and defend.
They moved to Maintinence, which happened to be their hive. Well, they got killed pretty quick. I told everyone to go back to base, and we'll secure Eclipse. By this time I had motion tracking up.
So they move back to the base and into the generator room. I put up a res tower there, and everyone built it and moved on. There was a Gorge in Eclipse, who was killed pretty quick. I plopped down a phase gate in base, and 1 in Eclipse. I put down a RT, a turret factory, and 2 turrets.
Now... this was where things got iffy. I told everyone to stay at Eclipse for a moment, but the 4 marines that were there ran off. The person defending the base was gone, and I had no idea where the rest of my team was. I plopped down 1 more turret there, and was out of money for now. I gave a person who left a WP to build it, but they ignored it. I started researching level 1 weapon upgrade as well. They all moved into Computer Core, which was mostly empty, save a few offense towers and a RT. At this time, the base came under attack. It seems everyone was somewhere around computer core right now. The aliens were chewing everything in sight, and I yelled at everyone to get back to the base. Of course, if they stayed at Eclipse like I said, they could be back instantly <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, I plopped down a phase gate and told everyone to build it and use it. Unfortunantly, a few aliens attacked during that time, delaying the build process. By the time the gate got up, skulks had overrun the base. I plopped down a command station in Eclipse as well as an IP, and told everyone to go there. I tried to scrap what I could of the base, but it was pretty overrun. The only thing I got was the observatory. They eventually killed the command chair and me.
Someone FINALLY got back to Eclipse, and started building. I hopped back into the command chair and put down a few more turrets. We held out for a while, but by that time, the aliens had pretty much won. They eventually over-ran our base and killed us. My team kept complaining I was a n00b commander for letting our base get killed.
I dont really think I was at fault here... if everyone had stayed at Eclipse like I said, they couldve gone through the Phase Gate and defended the base. But like I said, I am a newbie at this... so I just wanted to get a second opinion. Did I screw up somehow? Im scared to try commanding again ^_^
I got down an IP fast, and immediatly thereafter an armory. I dropped 2 packs of mines, and people put them up at the doors. I dropped another IP, as well as an observatory. I sent 2 marines to Station Access Alpha to get the node there. I gave them 1 pack of mines to secure it. They built the node, and I told everyone to move to Maintinence Access to secure it - except for 1 person to stay and defend.
They moved to Maintinence, which happened to be their hive. Well, they got killed pretty quick. I told everyone to go back to base, and we'll secure Eclipse. By this time I had motion tracking up.
So they move back to the base and into the generator room. I put up a res tower there, and everyone built it and moved on. There was a Gorge in Eclipse, who was killed pretty quick. I plopped down a phase gate in base, and 1 in Eclipse. I put down a RT, a turret factory, and 2 turrets.
Now... this was where things got iffy. I told everyone to stay at Eclipse for a moment, but the 4 marines that were there ran off. The person defending the base was gone, and I had no idea where the rest of my team was. I plopped down 1 more turret there, and was out of money for now. I gave a person who left a WP to build it, but they ignored it. I started researching level 1 weapon upgrade as well. They all moved into Computer Core, which was mostly empty, save a few offense towers and a RT. At this time, the base came under attack. It seems everyone was somewhere around computer core right now. The aliens were chewing everything in sight, and I yelled at everyone to get back to the base. Of course, if they stayed at Eclipse like I said, they could be back instantly <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Anyway, I plopped down a phase gate and told everyone to build it and use it. Unfortunantly, a few aliens attacked during that time, delaying the build process. By the time the gate got up, skulks had overrun the base. I plopped down a command station in Eclipse as well as an IP, and told everyone to go there. I tried to scrap what I could of the base, but it was pretty overrun. The only thing I got was the observatory. They eventually killed the command chair and me.
Someone FINALLY got back to Eclipse, and started building. I hopped back into the command chair and put down a few more turrets. We held out for a while, but by that time, the aliens had pretty much won. They eventually over-ran our base and killed us. My team kept complaining I was a n00b commander for letting our base get killed.
I dont really think I was at fault here... if everyone had stayed at Eclipse like I said, they couldve gone through the Phase Gate and defended the base. But like I said, I am a newbie at this... so I just wanted to get a second opinion. Did I screw up somehow? Im scared to try commanding again ^_^
Comments
some marines don't follow orders
some aliens are better than others
comming takes skill and patients
you will get the hang of it
never give up, never surrender
just keep trying to comm, one day you will win
comming takes skill and patients
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More like VICTIMS <img src='http://forum.pcgamer.co.uk/images/smiles/icon_twisted.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image'>
I didn't quite get your upgrade idea. If your marines only had lvl 1 weapons and aliens had lvl 3 carapace, it was no wonder they walked over your marines. Upgrades are very important: your marines are simply too weak to do anything to skulks if they don't have at least lvl 2 weapons (or coming soon) by the time skulks have lvl 3 carapace.
Keep on trying to comm. Sounds like you just needed some Marines with half a brain.
Let some pubbers scare you away from the comm chair!
Get back in NOW!
That comm sounds better than most, if some ppl didn't listen its thier own fault, they were probably only annoyed that medpacks weren't getting dropped quick enough which is usually low on my list of priorities.
You did the right thing with turrets though, if noone is willing to stay still, you'll need a tf to replace them. Although I'd suggest an arms lab + weapons or armor 1 (depending on your style), instead of an obs early on. With unskilled marines MT doesn't help as much as being able to take more skulk bites.
Stick with and good luck.
I suppose it just depends on how lucky you are with the attitudes of the first bunch of marines you attempt to command. Once you command a full game and win using your own strategy then the satisfaction is great.
when you play as comm, you forget what it is like to be a rine
The world of commanding is one big paradox
I try to have some fun, ask them to do stuff in a friendly manner, give them some goodies to keep them happy, and apologize if all goes to hell <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
8vs8 (2 marines i knowed to be relative good comms Blade and Nicki)
first: hear where the hive ---> some little silent blubbering a Waste
Yelling out "where gonna relocate to fusion go over satcomm not through double res" ---> they run through double --> i not worryd couse only 2 <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> died
i never gave them wps cause no marine ever accept this little blue point, i always use headset and calling them by their names
pushed down a commchair a cargo storage, 1 spawn,1 rt,
at this time marine start went down,
back a cargo strg blade buyd a armory, and i 3 pack of mines and rt in fusion hive
then waited for 45 res to get mt ( from time to time i always had to go out to help killing the red points u see with ur obs)
[At this point u must look how skilled ur team is (where they stand, guarding or else-->if not u need tf]
after relocate was complete for myself i yelled : Ok were gonna make 2 squads. First : Blade and 2 others
Second Squad: Nicki and 2 <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> with clans, 1 baseguard and me with mines
Chaos came up: Some guys run to waste ---> died
Others havnt understand what i sayd about the squads like Nicki,
the 2 other clanguys were english we found out later * i thought of were doomed
after 1 minute: Blade was with 2 guys a satcomm [builded rt there and after double rts a pg]
Nicki with 1 a double res
Motion come up and they defended well worth the 2nd hive and double through it
[aliens keept attacking double and sat and died *1 alien keept for my base but no chance against my aim, upgrds and mines ]
i upped lvl2 weapon, lvl1 armor,armory and ha, later lvl 3 weapon
Aliens get worse of dying and 2 of them left game
The PG a sat went done 1 time but rebuilded in a half minute
Double res towers went done but rebuilded in 4 minuts *Nicki wasnt able to get his squad guarding it
his squad kept running arround to keep gorgs down and attack sensless waste *this 3 guys never agree wps
J builded up 1 tf with 2 sentrs a base
J decided to not guard sat with a tf just 2 <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> and if some red points come near sat i sayed to go sat
couse less alien traffic there i done ha and the other upgrds for this res as fast as its possible though.
i got my 4 ha?s equipped and take them off
[aliens werent able to make a mass attack to my base couse of motion track i knowed where evry alien is supposed to go][remember the moral got lost to them due to the many dies]
puh really long for my first post *sorry guys
One of thoes mine packs placed near your critical buildings probably could have saved your base, but it was mostly your troops fault for not listening to you.
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I got down an IP fast, and immediatly thereafter an armory. I dropped 2 packs of mines, and people put them up at the doors. I dropped another IP, as well as an observatory. I sent 2 marines to Station Access Alpha to get the node there. I gave them 1 pack of mines to secure it. They built the node, and I told everyone to move to Maintinence Access to secure it - except for 1 person to stay and defend.
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All fine up to this point, this is a pretty common opening and theres nothing you specifically did wrong here, except....
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They moved to Maintinence, which happened to be their hive.
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You have to find their starting hive. From the beginning of the game you need to know where their hive is because it impacts on the whole game. At the beginning of the game, you can place your screen over each hive and listen for the pumping of the alien res node, or the scurrying of skulks moving out of the hive. Failing that, you built an obs. If you did not know the starting hive by the time your obs was down, your first action should have been to scan the hives and find their starting position.
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I told everyone to go back to base, and we'll secure Eclipse.
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Right here is where the game starts to go downhill, not when your marines decide to run off. The decision to tower up eclipse after finding their starting hive at maintenance is probably the worst thing you could do in this situation. You are a couple of minutes into the game, the aliens are getting carapace up and the gorge is probably pushing out of maintenance with res towers at south loop and possibly in computer core. The aliens have no interest in eclipse hive at all. At this point in time, the only things the aliens need to be concerned with are:
- The safety of their gorge
- The res towers they have probably placed between maintenance and CC
- Keeping CC clear
You may point out that this makes it easy to tower up EC, yes it does. But the reason the aliens are not concerned with EC is because they do not need it to win. EC provides you no tactical advantage other than a resource node, you have pumped more resources into securing it than you will get back from that resource node in several minutes.
Killing the gorge as you moved to EC was a nice little victory, however this could have been accomplished by a lone marine, and the decision to stay and tower up EC would have cost you the game against a competant alien team, assuming they hadn't rushed and killed your main. Now, your team went AWOL, it happens, but notably it happens more often when the marines don't think much to the commanders strategy. What your marines decided to do (Move in a group to CC) was infact a very sensible decision under the circumstances. Unfortunately, cross map your base defender decided to wander off, which i can't claim to be a sensible decision - this isnt your fault obviously, but probably should have been expected. There are very few pub players who will willingly stand in one position while nothing appears to be happening. You were unlucky, possibly you could have grabbed him as he started to wander off but that is wishful thinking.
Now, i'm going to avoid commenting on your attempt to tower 2 hives, i dont consider it much of a strategy but thats a very long argument that i can't be bothered to get into now. More importantly, the execution of your strategy was poor. Deciding to go for EC first is a poor decision, CC is the obvious choice for the 2nd alien hive, and a much easier location for the aliens to attack or defend from because of its position. Because of this, if you're going to take 2 hives, you needed to take CC first. The longer you wait, the harder it will become to take that hive. Even as you towered EC, the aliens were already dropping OCs in CC - as every second ticks on, the aliens get a higher level of carapace, then the ability to lerk, and possibly OC defences, it becomes harder and harder for you to take a hive. So you take the most difficult position first.
As for the gorge movement around EC, with motion tracking and the ability to scan, you should be able to track the gorge as a commander. Knowing what the gorge is up to is very, very helpful and if you can act on it you can inflict alot of damage to the alien team. Seeing a lone gorge in EC, it should be no problem to send a single marine to take it out. This sort of aggressive pressure can be used throughout the game whenever you see a gorge in a vulnerable position.
So, things to ponder:
- Be aggressive. EC was the easier hive to secure, but also the least attractive to the alien team. You pumped a great deal of resources into it, and none of that expense will mean anything if the aliens simply grab CC.
- Know what the aliens are up to. You can track a gorge easily on motion tracking using the commander mini-map (Its the blob moving slowly and stopping at resource nodes). The alien team has assets just as you do, and theirs are equally if not more vulnerable. Know what is important to the alien team, and if you get the chance, attack it. Killing gorges, res nodes or defence chambers in the early game sets the aliens back significantly.
And as a side note, it is not necessary to tower hives or ever use turrets in a game. A second hive can be delayed by taking down alien resource nodes, can be prevented by walking in and killing it before it builds. When an alien team spends most of the game defending against you, you don't need to spend resources on defences.
Bee ee aggressive! Bee ee ay gee gee are ee ess ess eye vee ee!
Sorry - very useful post but it brought back memories of Faith No More... <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
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I think placing the screen over the hive and listening for the res node is stupid (the fact that it can be done), and I hope it isn't possible in 1.1.
For some strange reason i dont always hear the res node sound, even when the hive is there after i scan.
But i usually listen the hive sound, cuz it is has that *shhhh* sound. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I listen for the sounds of skulks running around in the hives.
"F****** get up a comm console where i am!"
"Wheres that?"
"PRESS SPACE YOU NEWB COMMANDER!"
Pressed it and nothing happened. I got out and pistolized a few destroying the console and he came and made the commander console where he wanted it.
Trouble is he didnt tell me where he wanted it... im a rubbish <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> commander.
-always put pressure on anything the aliens want, make sure you have <b>at least</b> 2 people on assualt duty at all times, killing nodes, attacking hives, ect
-upgrades are key, mt is not all it seems with decent players, i have my 2nd wep upgrade and at least lvl 1 armor before i think about MT. unless your marines just walk into every room and always get ambushed, get upgrades
-watch your team, find out who you can trust with medpacks, ammo, and hi-tech. if you notice a guy who is not following orders, goes off and dies and constently wants something from you, dont be afriad to say "no, follow orders and i might think about it"
edit: come play with us at CoFR, youll learn a lot from us
You look like you have your head in the right place. To improve you need to be aware of what's going on in the game. The commander is most valuable when he is using his top-down viewpoint to advantage by listening all over the map for alien activity, being aware of where your marines are at all times (use the minimap to assist you in this). Combine these to scout ahead and warn marines of ambushes or interceptions. You can pinpoint the location of the gorge with your ears and send a couple of marines to take him out. Any time you take out a gorge it's like giving yourself 30 seconds of breather time at the minimum.
Make sure your marines are topped off with life all the time. Even if they're not currently following orders and accomplishing your current goal, a marine who dies is out of the rotation for like a minute (for respawn time and moving back into position). The only time I avoid this is when the marine is a complete waste of time, a total rube.
Coordinate your marines with each other on the map to act as a sort of moving wall. They're much more flexible than turrets in that they can move. If you have a marine group covering North Core (computer core) and a smaller group covering horseshoe, you only need one marine to hold eclipse, triad, station access, and power subjunction nodes.
Use recycling to hedge against a greater loss. For example, if you have a turret farm in eclipse that's going down to two skulks, and you have one marine moving in, estimate quickly whether he can stay alive. If you're even leaning towards no, start recycling turrets (not the turret factory). If he saves it you've lost, say, 30 res (and gained 30 to drop new turrets). If he dies you lose maybe 40 res and have 30 to rebuild.
Building every resource tower is better than building a small number that will more likely stay alive. The argument against this is that "many" of those towers won't "pay off," but the problem with this view is that it's concerned with how many resources you get over time. Consider how you play! When is a commander ever worried about how many res he's spent or how many he's taken in? Never. A commander wants a faster intake, and more res towers is key to that.
If a resource tower comes under attack and it can't be saved, recycle it. By the time it finishes recycling you'll probably have enough res to rebuild it. Do it. In most situations if you have a choice between dropping a resource tower and saving for a building or upgrade, you should get the tower first.
If you want aliens to not get the other hives, use your marines to put pressure on them, and to kill the gorge before he can put up a hive. To truely be a good commander you will need to learn how to comm without the use of turrets. Another thing 1 ip is only necessary unless you have a bunch of peopel (like 8 and up) in this case i would build one, and keep it there unless my team was dying a lot.
Phase gates should be used to rush aliens and that alone, phase gates arent that good but can sometimes be used, i wouldnt recommend them.
Motion tracking is good, but do not forget that marines NEED weapon upgrades and armor upgrades to win the game. The bare minimum you should have level 1 guns/level 1 armor. And another thing level 1 armor is basically the only armor upgrade you need, unless you have a TON of res.
uhhh not much more to add.... just play a bunch and get some experience.
STD-S][LveRW0lf*
That being said, here's what I have to say:
There really isn't any set strategy that will get you a win. No matter what people tell you, there really isn't a "trick" to commanding, or to strategy. In fact, if there is one thing I've found, it's that unpredictability gets me the most wins. By using a strategy that NO ONE has ever seen before - for example, say relocating to power sub-generator in eclipse - you'll totally throw the aliens for a loop and they won't know what to do to defend against you. So as far as commanding and strategy goes, I say do some experimentation. Try to deviate from what you have seen other commanders do (within reason - don't use your starting resources to buy 4 CC's for example), then improve on that. Commanding well in NS is all about improvising.
Also, as a general rule, you should try to avoid teching in too many directions in once. Being a jack of all trades doesn't usually win you games in NS, I'm afraid. Instead of concentrating all your resources in pumping up both marine armor AND weapons, for example, spend all of your money upgrading weapons and compensate for the lack of armor with HA. Or, do the exact opposite, and rush the early HMG with heavy armor upgrades. But don't try to research motion tracking, armor, weapons, AND equipment all at once - you'll find yourself running dry on resources pretty quick. Try getting an early strength, capitalize on it, then try to compensate or your weaknesses in the late game with any extra resources you might be mining. Once again, this is all about experimentation and experience.
Finally, and probably most importantly, you need to exert a certain aura when commanding to get people to follow your orders. You aren't commanding little computer peons, but actual living people, and actual living people don't like to follow orders from people they don't get along with or feel aren't skilled. I can't really teach you to be a good commander in this sense, but I can give you a few tips:
-Don't take sh|t from anybody. Try to be nice to people as much as possible, but if someone starts questioning your orders, rain your fury down on them. For example, if I build a turret factory early in the game for whatever reason, and some smart guy says, "OMG, you n00b, build a observatory/arms lab first," I'll reply on voicecomm (very important, you gain much more credibility when people hear your voice) "Look, I'm your commander, and if you want to win, follow my orders and do as I say, and don't question my orders." If someone does something you don't want them to do, get stern with them. And when I say "stern," I don't mean "scream your lungs out." People don't listen to a commander that yells "OMG I TOLD YOU TO GET BACK TO BASE COME ON YOU IDIOTS." Instead, <i>scold</i>. Say, in as serious a voice as you can muster, "I told you guys to stay in Eclipse, but because you did not, no one was able to phase back to main base and defend it from that alien rush." Notice the cause-effect statement there - that's a good way to get people to pay attention to you. Also, remember the names of repeat offenders, and don't give them any equipment. When you do that to people, be sure to remind them why ("This is what you get for not defending Eclipse!").
-Give players health, even when they don't request it. By using your minimap (players appear as moving blue dots), you can quickly and easily jump and check up on every player on your team. If you can manage to jump to a player, notice he isnt at full health, and heal him, then that player will respect you. For every person that says "Comm, give me...oh wait, you already did, nevermind, thanks comm," you'll have another player who's more willing to follow your orders.
-Motivate the players by giving them short-term goals. If they ask you for an HMG, tell them that you'll be able to give them an HMG as soon as they capture and defend two more resource nodes. If they complain about carapace, tell them to harass the alien main hive and kill the defense chambers there. If they're wandering them around doing nothing, find the gorge using motion tracking, waypoint him, and instruct your marines to hunt him down. Address players by name, saying "Player 1, kill that fade and I'll give you the next HMG." It really helps in getting people to follow your orders.
-In the same manner as the above suggestion, try to stay ahead of your players. Issue orders as much as possible, even when redundant. Use names, because it makes players feel special. Instead of saying "I need three people to go to Eclipse," say "Player 1, Player 2, and Player 3, go defend Eclipse," and give then them a waypoint.
Good luck!
you mean 'patience', unless you mean like, the comm getting **** and beating the crap--er, well, I won't get into that.
Sigh, anyway....
STD-S][LveRW0lf*
The rant about taking sh|t from no one didn't have anything to do with you, Silverwolf, you vain loon <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->. I was talking about the kind of people who, in pubs, constantly try to tell you to do something different. "No, you n00b comm, you're suppsoed to build <insert structure here> first!!111" I run into one of them almost every game.
it DOES suck when the rines are trying to comm from the field. assertiveness has to be put forth repeatedly, and emphatically.