-huge- Thankyou To Flayra & Co.
SuB
AusNS Forum Admin Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13723Members
AusNS Forum Admin Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13723Members
<div class="IPBDescription">... and why you won't hear me whining!</div> Thankyou!
I hear a lot of people whining about JP/HMG rushes, this exploit and that, such and such being overpowered, and so and so being underpowered... and while I don't expect that everyone should be as sympathetic to the development of such a ground breaking and truely refreshing game as this than I am, I really do wish some people who offer no <i>constructive</i> critiscism had even the slightest comprehension of what has gone into creating the magical world that is Natural Selection.
What Flayra and the gang have achieved so far, IMO, is absoloutely fantastic. Truely ground breaking, and uber-exciting <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Being a professional programmer myself, I have the utmost appreciation and respect for the amount of (unpaid) work all these guys, especially Flayra, have put into <i>the wonderful world we know as <b>Natural Selection</b></i>. The atmosphere of the game, the creativitness of the classes, weapons, structures and abilities, the re-focusing of the gameplay on strategy and not kills, and the integration of RTS with FPS all add up to the essential ingredient for an enduring cult classic.
More than anything, the feeling when playing the Frontiersman that the aliens are scary, disgusting, parasitic creatures that you must work together to eliminate at all costs <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> , and a then total role reversal in the mindset when you're on the Kharra side, battling individually but united through the hive mind as all of that reverses and the marines become quite convincingly a menacing force, out to exterminate your very feable existence, when all you're trying to do is protect the survival of your brethren Kharra buddies <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> and eventually, your whole species.
I didn't use to play many computer games... none at all in the last few years really. The one that got me back into gaming was Battlefield 1942... well, the BF demo on Wake Island really in the days when the demo servers were packed and we couldnt get enough. The novelty wore off pretty quickly once I sunk my teeth into the ins-and-outs of NS. For the record, I didn't like NS at first. I thought there was way too much going on and I'd never get the hang of it. I did get the hang of it though, pretty quickly, and now I can't stop raving about this game. The few brief instances i've gone back to play BF, I felt lonely, without a real overall strategic purpose, and quite bored to be honest. I don't really feel as though I'm playing with anyone else, despite there being lots of individuals playing on the other end... I'm just little old me running around on a map full of chaos and very little order.
The focus on communication and teamwork in NS makes me really feel as though I'm an integral part of something, and that I know, for good or bad, that there are other people in this game with me, and my team is going to win or lose together.
I have never once whined about the in-balances of the game. I do whine about clan stacking, cause I fail to see the merrit or enjoyment in raping a bunch of n00bs and everyone quitting the server as a result, but that can hardly be blamed on the game itself.
Yes, there are major imbalances in 1.04, and it is more than likely there will be a major imbalance once a certain tactic is found over time in 1.1. Why does this not worry me as much as some? Because I appreciate that setting two completely different races against each other, while maintaining perfect and consistent balance is certainly not something that is easy to achieve, or even achievable at all. It doesn't stop me from having a whole lot of fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's obvious that Flayra has grand plans for NS over the long term, and I certainly hope he maintains the motivation to realise them in the face of all the ungratefuls who don't have enough appreciation for the super-difficult craft of game creation. Being a coder myself (although not of games, which is what commands the most respect among the coding types), I realise why a 1.05 path won't come out... I realise why things have to be dropped because implementing them is proving too time consuming... I realise that although something might seem like the simplest, most benign thing to fix, the workaround can be exceedingly and suprisingly complicated... I realise what a massive juggling act coordinating playtests to get information that equates to real, unbiased feedback and translating that into the next release can be.
What is the point of this post? More than anything to thank Flayra and the rest of the dev team for their continued hard work and persistance, but also to stress to other players that their enjoyment of NS should be in the journey of it's development and continued evolution. I am extremely eager to play NS v1.1, but I'm having just as much fun anticipating it... I just wish Flayra was under less pressure to get the public 1.1 release out... <b>please take your time mate!</b>. Just take the time you need to make it what you want 1.1 to be. People will come back to try it out, but a lot of hopes will be riding on 1.1 from people with less passion for the long term plan than some of us have.... whatever the fate is in the end, it will be their loss as far as I see.
So... thankyou Flayra for concieving this wonderful concept and new style of gameplay, and thankyou for dedicating your time to making so many people that much happier that they are able to indulge themselves in the world you've pieced together. Also a big thankyou to everyone that helps Flayra realise his visions with models, sounds, maps and everything else we take for granted!
You all deserve to be very chuffed!
Keep up the awesome work! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I hear a lot of people whining about JP/HMG rushes, this exploit and that, such and such being overpowered, and so and so being underpowered... and while I don't expect that everyone should be as sympathetic to the development of such a ground breaking and truely refreshing game as this than I am, I really do wish some people who offer no <i>constructive</i> critiscism had even the slightest comprehension of what has gone into creating the magical world that is Natural Selection.
What Flayra and the gang have achieved so far, IMO, is absoloutely fantastic. Truely ground breaking, and uber-exciting <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Being a professional programmer myself, I have the utmost appreciation and respect for the amount of (unpaid) work all these guys, especially Flayra, have put into <i>the wonderful world we know as <b>Natural Selection</b></i>. The atmosphere of the game, the creativitness of the classes, weapons, structures and abilities, the re-focusing of the gameplay on strategy and not kills, and the integration of RTS with FPS all add up to the essential ingredient for an enduring cult classic.
More than anything, the feeling when playing the Frontiersman that the aliens are scary, disgusting, parasitic creatures that you must work together to eliminate at all costs <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif'><!--endemo--> , and a then total role reversal in the mindset when you're on the Kharra side, battling individually but united through the hive mind as all of that reverses and the marines become quite convincingly a menacing force, out to exterminate your very feable existence, when all you're trying to do is protect the survival of your brethren Kharra buddies <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> and eventually, your whole species.
I didn't use to play many computer games... none at all in the last few years really. The one that got me back into gaming was Battlefield 1942... well, the BF demo on Wake Island really in the days when the demo servers were packed and we couldnt get enough. The novelty wore off pretty quickly once I sunk my teeth into the ins-and-outs of NS. For the record, I didn't like NS at first. I thought there was way too much going on and I'd never get the hang of it. I did get the hang of it though, pretty quickly, and now I can't stop raving about this game. The few brief instances i've gone back to play BF, I felt lonely, without a real overall strategic purpose, and quite bored to be honest. I don't really feel as though I'm playing with anyone else, despite there being lots of individuals playing on the other end... I'm just little old me running around on a map full of chaos and very little order.
The focus on communication and teamwork in NS makes me really feel as though I'm an integral part of something, and that I know, for good or bad, that there are other people in this game with me, and my team is going to win or lose together.
I have never once whined about the in-balances of the game. I do whine about clan stacking, cause I fail to see the merrit or enjoyment in raping a bunch of n00bs and everyone quitting the server as a result, but that can hardly be blamed on the game itself.
Yes, there are major imbalances in 1.04, and it is more than likely there will be a major imbalance once a certain tactic is found over time in 1.1. Why does this not worry me as much as some? Because I appreciate that setting two completely different races against each other, while maintaining perfect and consistent balance is certainly not something that is easy to achieve, or even achievable at all. It doesn't stop me from having a whole lot of fun <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
It's obvious that Flayra has grand plans for NS over the long term, and I certainly hope he maintains the motivation to realise them in the face of all the ungratefuls who don't have enough appreciation for the super-difficult craft of game creation. Being a coder myself (although not of games, which is what commands the most respect among the coding types), I realise why a 1.05 path won't come out... I realise why things have to be dropped because implementing them is proving too time consuming... I realise that although something might seem like the simplest, most benign thing to fix, the workaround can be exceedingly and suprisingly complicated... I realise what a massive juggling act coordinating playtests to get information that equates to real, unbiased feedback and translating that into the next release can be.
What is the point of this post? More than anything to thank Flayra and the rest of the dev team for their continued hard work and persistance, but also to stress to other players that their enjoyment of NS should be in the journey of it's development and continued evolution. I am extremely eager to play NS v1.1, but I'm having just as much fun anticipating it... I just wish Flayra was under less pressure to get the public 1.1 release out... <b>please take your time mate!</b>. Just take the time you need to make it what you want 1.1 to be. People will come back to try it out, but a lot of hopes will be riding on 1.1 from people with less passion for the long term plan than some of us have.... whatever the fate is in the end, it will be their loss as far as I see.
So... thankyou Flayra for concieving this wonderful concept and new style of gameplay, and thankyou for dedicating your time to making so many people that much happier that they are able to indulge themselves in the world you've pieced together. Also a big thankyou to everyone that helps Flayra realise his visions with models, sounds, maps and everything else we take for granted!
You all deserve to be very chuffed!
Keep up the awesome work! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Absolutely spot-on about this part. I don't know how it works, but when I hear alien sounds, especially gestating sounds, regenerating sounds, jumping, etc. as a marine it disgust me. I think: "Urgh! Sickening!" But when I play as a Kharaa it sounds great! And marines building stuff and welding - all these sounds anger me: "How dare they build an rt on OUR res node! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo--> " Superb stuff.
But having never played anything other than a human hero in FPS games, playing an alien still feels ... wrong ... as though I've done something naughty. When I find a lone marine structure and eat it my heart beats like crazy - "I can't believe they've let me get away with this!" Nothing else has thrilled my body so physically than this game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
So I too want to say thanks. But you have to bear in mind that no matter how superb an achievement, it has to remain playable, else it becomes a back-patting exercise between programmers - sort of like guitar solo-wankery that only other masturbators can appreciate.
Now go to church and praise the Lord because he sent us Flayra who shows us the light beyond the ctf-darkness.
You can't do that on a MMORPG (my favorite games, second only to table top D&D).
And to those that'd rush Flayra, in the words of my friend on the cattle farm, "Cowboy Up!"
For those who've got no clue what that means, think of a rodeo. Cowboys being slung to the ground, breaking bones, ripping tendons and ligaments, but they don't cry about it. They get up, dust themselves off, and walk out of the arena....sometimes with a bit of help.
So the meaning is, "Suck it up, don't whine, and do what needs doing." In this case, let the devs do their jobs.
Flayra is my Shepherd...<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sorry, this post didn't start out as a discussion of these things, but I figured I'd go ahead and say them.
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One thing I wanted to get off my chest. I wish people would stop making things out to be a devs vs vets thing. There is not some generalized feelings of animosity that we have towards all the vets. Have you seen how much Flayra has changed in the game, based on feedback from both PT's and Vets alike?
What we do have a problem with is individual people, whether they are PT's, Vets, or any other community members, who
1. Have a problem voicing their opinions in a constructive, helpful manner, and make antagonistic posts merely to start an argument
2. think that the devs have some personal vendetta against them simply because we don't agree with some of their suggestions
Contrary to popular believe we are not saying that we don't welcome criticism, and that every post needs to be "NS is perfect, you guys rock!". But is can be disheartening to see the same threads over and over again about how "OMG, Ns is going to die if such and such is changed, what a sucky idea, etc." Some people cannot get beyond their own personal preferences, to see the overall picture about how something may fit in, so they make it their personal crusade to try and get a feature changed, well after the devs have made a final decision on it. Flayra is one of the most subjective and thoughtful people I know, and if a feature he was really attached to proves that it isn't working, or someone can voice an intelligent argument against it, he won't hesitate to take it out.
Admittedly there are times when one of us gets a bit stressed out and sick of the constant stream of negativity and flips out on someone, and for this we apologize. But I don't like to hear how we are being blamed for promoting any kind of "us against them" mentality against the vets, or that we are showing some kind of favoritism towards the PT's.
By the way, sorry to single your post out, Sling_Blade, it's just something that's been bugging me for a while.
GIVE THAT MAN SOEM PAI
well said
A quick trip to the neighborhood EB will reveal shelves upon shelves of unplayable, designed-by-committee, all-things-to-all-people games. The whole reason the mod scene is interesting is because it doesn't have to please everyone. The authors can conceive and realize a coherent vision of a game without trying to make it more like <i>Popular Game X</i>. And the authors can take risks with the design, and experiment with unproven ideas.
I guess what I'm driving at here is that I hope NS continues to innovate and push the boundaries of the FPS genre. And I hope NS doesn't fall into the trap of homogenizing the play experience in order to silence the complainers (like, ahem, certain other mods).
There is a marked difference between someone who whines and someone who offers constructive criticism.
One person I hold a lot of respect for in this community is Martigen, because whenever he points out a fundamental flaw in the game or even just small trivial things, he provides a decent amount of insight into exactly why he thinks something is the way it is, why it needs to be changed, and how the dev team might go about approaching it. I have a sneaking suspicion Flayra values his opinions a lot more than most for this very reason, although that's just speculation.
This my friend is called constructive criticism, and I can tell you as a developer myself that there is nothing more valuable than <i>constructive</i> criticism. There is very little merit or use however in "this sucks I don't know what you were thinking" type comments, because although they point out something that is not to your liking, there is no thought or articulation behind what could be done to address the problem.
If you are unable to express your concerns or suggestions in an intelligent and helpful manner, but instead have to resort to whining about certain features to communicate your displeasure, then you have nothing much at all of any use to contribute and it would probably be better that you didn't. Speculation of in-balances in a game you haven't even played are also rife... and I can say with a lot of confidence that 1.1 will be for the most part a totally different game than the 1.04 one we're all used to.
I just wanted to say thanks to the dev team, especially in light of how much negativity gets thrown around, and I hope that they realise that it's generally much more common for people to communicate their displeasure than their pleasure and that the people who do appreciate all the work they're doing are most likely the <i>silent majority</i>.
Thanks to everyone else who's echoed my sentiments, and posted their own. Keep it up!
It is this kind of honest, positive feedback that will take this game further than the void of un-constructive criticism that runs rampant on these forums.
<Flayra> I'm on the verge of just shutting this whole vet thing down, it's just been a waste of time so far.
Now, I am sure that was taken out of context, but I am sure that there are vets who have done a good job playtesting, giving suggestions that are constructive, and trying to help Flayra, and when they see that quote it probably contributes to a feeling of animosity. I'm not saying it is Flayra's fault, that's just one example. You say you get annoyed about people posting the same thing all the time, or not liking a change you make. Well... that's the community. Being that this is a large group of people, and that the demographic is teenagers for the most part, you can't expect everyone to be a logic minded rational polite person who is mature. I used to work for a popular gaming site, and after a bit, I just got tired of it. I got tired of all the immaturity. I got tired of the constant criticism. I kept telling myself I was doing it for the community, but I found myself disliking most of the community I was supposidly serving. For people like me who find some parts of the community annoying (and I imagine some devs may have reached this point) you have a few choices. You can tell yourself you are doing this for the people in the community you do like, and ignore the retards. You can actually limit whom you serve to only those you like (possible for server operators... but not a mod author). Lastly, you can just not serve the community.
One thing that DOESN'T work, and I've tried, is try to tell the community that it is immature and to stop doing X because it annoys you. It usually only serves to **** the community off and make the situation worse. Any idea you have that involves changing the community is simply impossible. You can't have as much influence as the thoasands of IRC conversations going on every minute. The community is what it is. It has good parts and bad, and you have to either learn to ignore the bad parts, deal with only the good parts, or not deal with the community at all.
If you are someone whom the community annoys, my best advice to you is to just stop reading the posts and the PMs as much as you can. I think one of the main reasons gaming companies have PR people is so that they can shield the devs from the rawness of the community and deal with the it in a way that is best for their product. You guys could do the same thing. Find someone who enjoys working with the community and whom it doesn't annoy, and who understands it. Then only have that person deal with the community and let the devs more or less see only the best side of the community.
As for Flayra, you're innovation motivates me. I can no longer play other FPS, such as Firearms and Day of Defeat, like I used to. 5 minutes of unorganized shooting, where people yell at you for using the mic, and I'm done. Back to the strategy and teamwork of NS. NS has been the top slot in my list of games since the hour it came out, back on Haloween night. I that the game I'd been anticipating for a long long long long long time has JUST been posted for download, and rushed home to try it out. This game fit me like a glove. It takes a little more thinking and teamwork than any other mod or game that I've seen, and it immediately piqued my interest. I've played it EVERY day since it came out, and for me, that's a huge something. GOOD WORK!!!!!