Actually, when marines are just <i>utterly</i> dominating (and I happen to be on the marine side [hey! stranger things have happened!]) I always start kicking and screaming for HA. 'Cuz you know, sure you could just end it with JPs, but there's nothing quite like the Mob O' HA.
Just play regularly on a certain server (doesn't especially matter which one) and eventually the regulars will get sick of JP rushing.
it may seem like whining and it may seem like impatience, and to a certain degree it is BUT i started this thread because i have noticed a lack of players on the servers of late, and have attributed this to jp ownage. I love this game and fully support it and do not like to see interest in it wane.
with the current changes planned i'm guessing 1.1 could be another month away, i suppose thats not very long, but how long would it take to code a patch that simple changes jp and hive cost?
It was just a suggestion, that would hopefully keep the interest in NS up, and at the same time give the Flayra, the Dev team and the play testers more time to work on 1.1 because ppl could return to a balenced game.
Just a suggestion. not a demand <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That is true topper, the uk servers 3 months ago at peak time were all pretty much full. now we are lucky if 50 people are playing at peak time. The only fun games now are when (and he will get abuse for it) a comm doesnt get JP + HMG (one way to promote rambo's btw) and goes instead for the old lockdown technique using on foot lmgers and phase gates OR The older siege method of hive control. But its like people used to think fades were, unstopable, however practice your lerking, spikes + JP marine = one dead marine, acuracy isnt a problem because as long as your crosshair is on them u hit them, dont be fooled by the animation <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->, also like the Fade craze (whitch saw the alien door overcrowded) the JP craze will die when more people realise lerk can easily kill jp+hmg (YES even on one hive, if someone lerks on one hive dont call out n00b or whatever you picked up from other mod(that will remain nameless) communities. so the gorge shares his res with one other alien... it still takes prefference.)) Fade = Toffee, JP+HMG = Toffee. HA+welder+HMG x5 = one lost cause as far as the aliens are concerned. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. ANOTHER thing that has cropped up is this "OMG COMM PUT A TF IN THE BASE WE LOOSE!!" <-------that actually makes me laugh.... Used to be 2x IP, armoury then tf and 3 turrets then res hunt. now its 1x IP, armoury go out for res, let skulks rush in take out IP and lose. quite funny, the irony is astounding. The point is, game balance is fine, as long as the players know how to play. Even with the new version on the way, in it, an experienced alien team against a less experienced marine team, the aliens perhaps fade, ler and onos up and procede to slaughter the marines, they marines then come to these forums and say aliens are unbalanced. becasue the marines didnt have the tech or the knowledge to counter this doesnt make it unbalanced. As it stands, the way to counter fades (the cheep way) is to simply get lvl2 ammo and lvl1 armour. whitch costs the same amount of res as an alien hive does(excluding the arms lab, that covers the actual cost of the fade <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ). (the expencive way includes a proto lab and more expence). YET the way to counter a JP and HMG rush on one hive costs the alien team 35 res (lerk who stays at the hive on defence, preferably with carapace and two DCs there also). and the marines have just spent 125 on buildings for the rush, minimum of 60 on the upgrades and each man that gets kitted out costs 34 res. now if that rush is stopped by a single lerk, (and ive seen it done alot) this cripples the marines and therfore inevitably costs them the game. as the chances of the marines having JP HMG and other upgrades is very slim, perhaps lvl1 ammo and armour, but not much else. Oh another counter, dont let them hold res nodes for very long...and harras the base taking out the proto, arms then armoury, in that order. You now have the knowledge, but what about the skill? Practice my friends practice.
Generally when a JP rush "fails" (all the initial attack marines die), the marines lose NOTHING. The marines that die will respawn at the base (and can defend if neccessary... but it should be packed with mines anyway). They can spawn another JP for the marines at minimal cost, do the weapons upgrade, again for minimal cost, and try again.
Now the marines come RIGHT BACK and try for the hive again, which has less health. While the lerk is defending the one or two JPs IN the hive, the rest of the marines are securing the hallway around the corner and building phase with mines. They only need to throw themselves at the hive a few times to win. This is all on 2 or 3 res nodes, so the aliens don't even have much to attack, except an endless stream of JP marines which are damn hard to kill if said marines know how to tap the spacebar.
The problem is the JP is overpowered vs 1-hive aliens. If a lerk dies, 33 res gone. JPer dies, 9 res gone.
The 33 res you need is shared between the whole team so good luck getting it back before your hive goes down. Also this whole time, the marines only need to send one guy to go kill the "2nd hive" gorge or kill the 2nd hive if its up. The aliens are tied up either defending the main hive or trying to prevent the marines from taking all the res nodes. If they make the laughable mistake of defending the 2nd hive, then 1st hive falls or marines get godly res.
wow, thanks guys. I'd forgotten why I wasn't visiting the Gen forum.. You reminded me quite well. If you can't beat the marine JP/HMG rush, maybe <b>you are doing something incorrect.</b> Wow, bet no one thought of that. Grow up guys, learn how to counter that strat, since 2/3 of all marine teams go for it. 1.04 is fine, provided neither team stacks (and sometimes with stacking it makes for a hella hard game, but still possible to win with better strategy and tactics). Summary: People have whined about this since 1.0whatever, when the JP/hmg rush first worked. You're still whining... Why haven't you read the old posts, and seen some of the replies as to how to beat the rushing marines. I'll leave you guys with one bit of helpful info before going away from here for a long while.. Ever consider not letting the marines hold more than 2 resnodes? Ever heard of keeping the marines contained in their base, limiting their resources to just ONE rnode? I won't give hints as to how one should keep those resnodes down, but I figure the smarter of you will figure it out, eventually.
marines can tech to hmg+jp before the second hive with only their main base res node. but that is a bit off topic.
as far as enjoying 1.04... when I command I never get jetpacks unless the marines are really begging for them alot and we are already winning, or we are sucking and I know the jetpacks won't be used to rambo-assassinate a hive.
Fantasmo and BreakfastSausages: noone here is whining. We are discussing the fact the number of NS players is rapidly decreasing, and what might be done about it. vogru, can you tell us how much work a patch like yours requires?
There is allready a good way for aliens to counter jp/hmg rush. dont let them get res points! heh. no res = harder to put together a hmg/jp rush. many times i played we keeped them from getting jp/hmg gear by keeping them from res points. by the time they had the materials we had 2nd hive and webs which ment there rush was pritty much useless. a few well placed otowers and webs and jps die pritty much every raid unless they take the time to weld the web but even then the otowers fireing at them.
I play alot on voogru servers and aliens often win. id say like 50/50 depending on map. ns_eclipse is like 80/20 for aliens win chance unless u get a marine team doing good team work.
let 1.1 come at its own pace 1.04 isn't as bad as you make it sound
the JP/HMG thing does suck...no doubt...it's one of the things they are addressing but ...aliens still win where i have played ( i would say "maybe you just suck" but that is too mean ) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
i think part of the problem of people leaving ...is the departure of rambos in TFC and CS you could have these people who were playing DM (didn't know it was a TEAM game)
and still have a decent game NS kind of demands that you act as a team...or else you croak
now leave the devs in peace to finish 1.1 their heads are all tied up in the balance of 1.1 and it would take considerable time to <ul> <li>a. put their minds in 1.0 land <li>b. make adjustments <li>c. test <li>d. distribute <li>e. update servers </ul> its not worth it ...all that time could be spent finishing 1.1
Admittedly I haven't played in two weeks, due to work, not lack of intereset. Last time did play however there were plenty of counters to JP/HMG. I think people are just too quick to give up. Here's my hint:
Don't bother with a 2:nd hive. No point in starting a 2:nd hive if it will go down before it is up. Spend resources on: - RT's - DC's (not just the 3, put up healing stations at choke points) - OC's (to protect the Hive, healing stations and RT's) - Lerks (they kill JP's) - Gorges (they kill JP's AND heal teammates, 2-3 *good* gorges on a team is totally ok)
Now you are spending your resources on stuff that will actually help you, instead of saving for the mythical "second hive". So now your job is to protect your resource investment and destroy the Marines investment. Hunt down all undefended RT's and constantly look for weak spots. With Lerks, Gorges and Skulks patrolling the map, Rambos will fall easy, especially if the healing stations are well placed.
This works *wonders* against JP's and HMG's. But of course you won't pull it off, because, let's face it, you have no teamwork. Your teammates are all "n00bs". You are more concerned about your K:D ratio then saving that D-chamber that is under attack. You don't use voice-com or chat to communicate with your team. You can't be bothered to convince your team to work together. You scold the 2:nd person that goes gorge because you still live in the dreamland where you will get a 2:nd hive up if you just have one gorge save resources.
So yeah, unless you are willing to adapt a bit and maybe take responsibility for your and your teams shortcomings and actually do something about it, your best bet is to stop playing 1.04 and wait for the next update of Barbies Pet Rescue.. ehh.. I mean 1.1
i think this JP/HMG crap is getting out of control lately(i noticed when 1 'rine got a JP/HMG in the game and destroyed all our hives solo), comms tech up to JP/HMG quick and one guy assaults the hive(s) mostly you'll have enough time to put a second hive up if you have one gorge or two with one constant res hunting('rines will not venture out of base often, and the two gorge tandem is quite fast.). on Voogru(yes, i can connect finaly) you'll encounter less JP/HMG rushing and the 'rines will still have a decent chance.(well, if they rush and there's a admin strange things will happen).
the counters known to are: webbing (as soon as you get a warning, then WEB) and mass OC building with some DCs beneath the hive and letting skulks try the whole time chomping them.
(NOTE:as for this patch thingie, maybe they could release some teaser patch with perhaps a few(few=2-4) small changes on it? so they'll keep the masses happy and can spend more time on the real 1.1 before the masses start mass posting 'bout: "WHEN IS 1.1 OUT" again?)
I think that some ppl believe that if you don't place OC and DC you will lose quickly, not true @ all! I played a game yesterday where we had 1 gorge, who never put up a single OC or DC till the 2nd hive was up, he capped all the res nozzles, pooled his REZ and never worried about losing a RT. Why? He had a body guard and our team was forcing the Marines to defend there own base. plus as soon as one of them attacked a RT, we were all over them.
Team work is the most important thing! If you play as a team, JP/HMG's won't stop you! I find it helps to be on a team of OLDER players (ages 18 to 30), they listen more and work as a team better!
WE ARE TOAST V <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> ............. <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> ............ <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <---- Dinner time! thank you 1.1 <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> ...........
A lerk really doesn't do very good against a JP+HMG... I don't think you've ever tried to spike a good marine, he'll use the hive as cover and attack it with his HMG while hiding from you, not just floating in one place. If you do happen to kill them, they're not crippled from the supposed rush.. they can so easily just send even more out to take out that hive with a clip and a half of HMG in it.
On topic, a patch, eh, it sounds good... but chances are it'll slow 1.1, which I'd much rather have.
Lately, I've rarely seen marines win outright with a JP/HMG rush. The few times it worked, the aliens left their hive 100% wide open or they had a hive that was far too easily jetpack whorable, like every hive on ns_nothing.
The problem is that too many aliens player refuse to adapt. They falsely and blindly believe that they must absolutely not "waste" any res on anything else than 3 DCs, RTs, and a 2nd hive to win. Yet doing that is the best way to get crushed by a JP/HMG rush. Then they cry imbalance and say it's impossible to win. 1 lerk + a few well placed OCs + DCs under the hive (more than 3, try 6-7) make it basically impossible to JP rush the hive successfully.
Marines control the map in the early game. To win, you must take that control away from them. THAT is your true priority, NOT getting a 2nd hive up ASAP. DCs/OCs at critical choke points/rooms help immensely, and so do lerks.
YES, the marines dominate far too much, YES, JP/HMG -is- abusive, however a JP/HMG rush is NOT a free win for them if you play it smart.
You could either have 1.05 that would in itself probably have to 1) be made 2) play tested 3) would still have some kind of balance issue for everyone to complain about and 4) delay 1.1 -- or you could just have 1.1 as soon as possible. I choose the later.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines control the map in the early game. To win, you must take that control away from them. THAT is your true priority, NOT getting a 2nd hive up ASAP. DCs/OCs at critical choke points/rooms help immensely, and so do lerks.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't fully agree with you! yes the Aliens have toget HIVES But the Marines have to get the RT's to get any where, you you can get and hold more of the RT's then the Humans, your in control, then you can get a second hive and wath the Marines squirm!
I stopped playing NS sadly cos im sick and tired of seeing the same **** games over and over again, for the love of god release a simple 1.05 server patch where the jps are more expensive cos the more time the so called "playtesters" spend fannying around the more people are turning away from NS.
You can't just hope that they come back when 1.1 eventually comes along.....
<!--QuoteBegin--Rion+May 30 2003, 07:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rion @ May 30 2003, 07:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A lerk really doesn't do very good against a JP+HMG... I don't think you've ever tried to spike a good marine, he'll use the hive as cover and attack it with his HMG while hiding from you, not just floating in one place. If you do happen to kill them, they're not crippled from the supposed rush.. they can so easily just send even more out to take out that hive with a clip and a half of HMG in it.
On topic, a patch, eh, it sounds good... but chances are it'll slow 1.1, which I'd much rather have. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I am talking clan matches/gathers here, and yes I play VERY high standard players, I have played lerk for maybe 6 months now (at one point i couldnt fade anymore :o ) so that probably helps, The marine would fly about shooting the hive getting picked off one by one, Spikes are the best weapon IMO. takes 10 to kill a marine with no armour upgrade, and they are 100% acurate to the crosshair (the animation makes it look like they drop off, dont adjust your aim for this) So just get your crosshair over them and they die REALLY fast.
<!--QuoteBegin--DarkFrost+May 30 2003, 08:34 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkFrost @ May 30 2003, 08:34 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--Rion+May 30 2003, 07:11 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rion @ May 30 2003, 07:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A lerk really doesn't do very good against a JP+HMG... I don't think you've ever tried to spike a good marine, he'll use the hive as cover and attack it with his HMG while hiding from you, not just floating in one place. If you do happen to kill them, they're not crippled from the supposed rush.. they can so easily just send even more out to take out that hive with a clip and a half of HMG in it.
On topic, a patch, eh, it sounds good... but chances are it'll slow 1.1, which I'd much rather have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I am talking clan matches/gathers here, and yes I play VERY high standard players, I have played lerk for maybe 6 months now (at one point i couldnt fade anymore :o ) so that probably helps, The marine would fly about shooting the hive getting picked off one by one, Spikes are the best weapon IMO. takes 10 to kill a marine with no armour upgrade, and they are 100% acurate to the crosshair (the animation makes it look like they drop off, dont adjust your aim for this) So just get your crosshair over them and they die REALLY fast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah right :rolls eyes:
The problem with JP is that it isn't a Jump pack.. it's a flight pack.. in short.. if you conserve fuel you can stay airborne for at long as you want to.
The simple patch would be either: 1. Don't let JP's recharge unless the marine is on the ground, or 2. Decrease fuel amount to ½ and make it so it takes double time to refuel.
You can do both, but that is cutting it a little close i think...
Anyhow if you can ground a Jetpacker just 50% of the time, he will no longer be "invincible" and able to solo hive. On the other hand, he should still be able to do a lot of other stuff, like going thought vents...
so in 1.04, the alien counter to jp is to.. a) Forgo a 2nd hive alltogether? - ahh 2 hive lock down, dont ya just love it. b) deny marines res - yeah that works, provided they dont relocated to dbl res. c) Lerk - vs HMG/JP? not a chance.
I understand the chances of there ever being a 1.05 patch are about the same as a la/lmg vs Onos. But what i dont understand is how ppl cant see a problem with 1.04
Maybe its coz in New Zealand we have a relatively small NS community, and as a result we have a lot more experienced players compared to the number of noobs. My point is, when you get top players battling it out, you hardly ever see an alien win. Just watch the USA vs NZ demos, aliens didn't win once.
Anyway, fingers crossed 1.1 gets here soon to bring back all the leaving players.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->so in 1.04, the alien counter to jp is to.. a) Forgo a 2nd hive alltogether? - ahh 2 hive lock down, dont ya just love it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. It's to set up strong defenses in hive rooms/key locations BEFORE getting it or a JP/HMGer will just waltz in and nail it (that, or your initial hive.) You have to make it so that 1) your initial hive and the one you will be taking are JP proof and 2) any attempt at a marine advance toward either hives will be stalled enough for the 2nd hive to finish.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->b) deny marines res - yeah that works, provided they dont relocated to dbl res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thought New Zealanders were "elite"? Relocating is a tactic newbies use that hardly ever pay off VS good aliens. Relocating is essentially giving up map control for at least 5 minutes, and you won't necessarily be able to take it back. Double res or no, you most likely won't be able to stop aliens from getting 2 hives and enough res to use it unless you manage to JP **** one which can be prevented by proper hive defenses (DCs + OCs + 1 lerk.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->c) Lerk - vs HMG/JP? not a chance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lerk sitting on top of a hive that has DCs under it with some OCs peppered around the hive room VS HMG/JP = lerk.FragCount++
A JP/HMG rambo surely is beatable, this is the reason why aliens still win games. But as a fact, on all servers with some skill and teamplay, marines seem to win at least two thirds of all games. So how to beat broken marine tactics is not the point at all. The point is both teams will often have less fun playing than if the odds were roughly even. And this seems to be the reason why (another plain fact) the NS community is shrinking.
I might add a 1.05 patch would not need to be perfect - we have been teased so long everyone knows the big patch will come one day and rule a lot. It would not need to make NS a perfectly balanced game - just soften up the hard and pointy bits somewhat so NS is a lot more fun for a lot more people. I repeat my statement a pre-release of one or several of the new maps would likely also stir up interest. The regular maps seem to be played dry, or why else are so many people playing custom maps of sometimes downright horrible quality?
Relocation is risky, but it pays off, marines have advantage in the early game so they can usually pull it off. Relocating costs, but relocating to dbl res points means you only have to fortify one position, and you get twice the res, and often locks down a hive in the process.
Yes, one rambo JP/HMG can be dealt with, but if the marines can get one, they can get more. One of the first targets a pair of JP/HMGers go for are the DC's under the hive, they go down easy, once they have, aliens loose def upgrades and hive soon dies.
the speed at which JPs are available is the problem, and that is why they are being changed in 1.1 If you dont believe JP rushes are over powered now, go play a clan match vs some of the top clans and they'll show you just how fast you can crank them out.
If 1.1 is going to only be another 2 weeks away, fine, great, see you on the servers <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> but if all these new changes take another 2 months to test and refine, then its in the best interest of the game to keep things balenced till then - no chance of it happening, but next time im com, dont ask for a jp <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
Just play regularly on a certain server (doesn't especially matter which one) and eventually the regulars will get sick of JP rushing.
People come, people go, it's called the <b>PROCESS</b>. Don't you think they will return once v1.1 gets released?
One word that describes this thread;
Starts with <b>w</b> ends with <b>hiners</b>
...
BUT
i started this thread because i have noticed a lack of players on the servers of late, and have attributed this to jp ownage. I love this game and fully support it and do not like to see interest in it wane.
with the current changes planned i'm guessing 1.1 could be another month away, i suppose thats not very long, but how long would it take to code a patch that simple changes jp and hive cost?
It was just a suggestion, that would hopefully keep the interest in NS up, and at the same time give the Flayra, the Dev team and the play testers more time to work on 1.1 because ppl could return to a balenced game.
Just a suggestion.
not a demand <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
The only fun games now are when (and he will get abuse for it) a comm doesnt get JP + HMG (one way to promote rambo's btw) and goes instead for the old lockdown technique using on foot lmgers and phase gates OR The older siege method of hive control. But its like people used to think fades were, unstopable, however practice your lerking, spikes + JP marine = one dead marine, acuracy isnt a problem because as long as your crosshair is on them u hit them, dont be fooled by the animation <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->, also like the Fade craze (whitch saw the alien door overcrowded) the JP craze will die when more people realise lerk can easily kill jp+hmg (YES even on one hive, if someone lerks on one hive dont call out n00b or whatever you picked up from other mod(that will remain nameless) communities. so the gorge shares his res with one other alien... it still takes prefference.)) Fade = Toffee, JP+HMG = Toffee. HA+welder+HMG x5 = one lost cause as far as the aliens are concerned. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. ANOTHER thing that has cropped up is this "OMG COMM PUT A TF IN THE BASE WE LOOSE!!" <-------that actually makes me laugh.... Used to be 2x IP, armoury then tf and 3 turrets then res hunt. now its 1x IP, armoury go out for res, let skulks rush in take out IP and lose. quite funny, the irony is astounding.
The point is, game balance is fine, as long as the players know how to play. Even with the new version on the way, in it, an experienced alien team against a less experienced marine team, the aliens perhaps fade, ler and onos up and procede to slaughter the marines, they marines then come to these forums and say aliens are unbalanced. becasue the marines didnt have the tech or the knowledge to counter this doesnt make it unbalanced.
As it stands, the way to counter fades (the cheep way) is to simply get lvl2 ammo and lvl1 armour. whitch costs the same amount of res as an alien hive does(excluding the arms lab, that covers the actual cost of the fade <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ). (the expencive way includes a proto lab and more expence).
YET the way to counter a JP and HMG rush on one hive costs the alien team 35 res (lerk who stays at the hive on defence, preferably with carapace and two DCs there also). and the marines have just spent 125 on buildings for the rush, minimum of 60 on the upgrades and each man that gets kitted out costs 34 res. now if that rush is stopped by a single lerk, (and ive seen it done alot) this cripples the marines and therfore inevitably costs them the game. as the chances of the marines having JP HMG and other upgrades is very slim, perhaps lvl1 ammo and armour, but not much else. Oh another counter, dont let them hold res nodes for very long...and harras the base taking out the proto, arms then armoury, in that order.
You now have the knowledge, but what about the skill? Practice my friends practice.
Generally when a JP rush "fails" (all the initial attack marines die), the marines lose NOTHING. The marines that die will respawn at the base (and can defend if neccessary... but it should be packed with mines anyway). They can spawn another JP for the marines at minimal cost, do the weapons upgrade, again for minimal cost, and try again.
Now the marines come RIGHT BACK and try for the hive again, which has less health. While the lerk is defending the one or two JPs IN the hive, the rest of the marines are securing the hallway around the corner and building phase with mines. They only need to throw themselves at the hive a few times to win. This is all on 2 or 3 res nodes, so the aliens don't even have much to attack, except an endless stream of JP marines which are damn hard to kill if said marines know how to tap the spacebar.
The problem is the JP is overpowered vs 1-hive aliens. If a lerk dies, 33 res gone. JPer dies, 9 res gone.
The 33 res you need is shared between the whole team so good luck getting it back before your hive goes down. Also this whole time, the marines only need to send one guy to go kill the "2nd hive" gorge or kill the 2nd hive if its up. The aliens are tied up either defending the main hive or trying to prevent the marines from taking all the res nodes. If they make the laughable mistake of defending the 2nd hive, then 1st hive falls or marines get godly res.
If you can't beat the marine JP/HMG rush, maybe <b>you are doing something incorrect.</b> Wow, bet no one thought of that. Grow up guys, learn how to counter that strat, since 2/3 of all marine teams go for it. 1.04 is fine, provided neither team stacks (and sometimes with stacking it makes for a hella hard game, but still possible to win with better strategy and tactics).
Summary: People have whined about this since 1.0whatever, when the JP/hmg rush first worked. You're still whining... Why haven't you read the old posts, and seen some of the replies as to how to beat the rushing marines.
I'll leave you guys with one bit of helpful info before going away from here for a long while.. Ever consider not letting the marines hold more than 2 resnodes? Ever heard of keeping the marines contained in their base, limiting their resources to just ONE rnode? I won't give hints as to how one should keep those resnodes down, but I figure the smarter of you will figure it out, eventually.
as far as enjoying 1.04... when I command I never get jetpacks unless the marines are really begging for them alot and we are already winning, or we are sucking and I know the jetpacks won't be used to rambo-assassinate a hive.
I play alot on voogru servers and aliens often win. id say like 50/50 depending on map. ns_eclipse is like 80/20 for aliens win chance unless u get a marine team doing good team work.
let 1.1 come at its own pace
1.04 isn't as bad as you make it sound
the JP/HMG thing does suck...no doubt...it's one of the things they are addressing
but ...aliens still win where i have played
( i would say "maybe you just suck" but that is too mean ) <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
i think part of the problem of people leaving ...is the departure of rambos
in TFC and CS you could have these people who were playing DM (didn't know it was a TEAM game)
and still have a decent game
NS kind of demands that you act as a team...or else you croak
now leave the devs in peace to finish 1.1
their heads are all tied up in the balance of 1.1 and it would take considerable time to
<ul>
<li>a. put their minds in 1.0 land
<li>b. make adjustments
<li>c. test
<li>d. distribute
<li>e. update servers
</ul>
its not worth it ...all that time could be spent finishing 1.1
Don't bother with a 2:nd hive. No point in starting a 2:nd hive if it will go down before it is up. Spend resources on:
- RT's
- DC's (not just the 3, put up healing stations at choke points)
- OC's (to protect the Hive, healing stations and RT's)
- Lerks (they kill JP's)
- Gorges (they kill JP's AND heal teammates, 2-3 *good* gorges on a team is totally ok)
Now you are spending your resources on stuff that will actually help you, instead of saving for the mythical "second hive". So now your job is to protect your resource investment and destroy the Marines investment. Hunt down all undefended RT's and constantly look for weak spots. With Lerks, Gorges and Skulks patrolling the map, Rambos will fall easy, especially if the healing stations are well placed.
This works *wonders* against JP's and HMG's. But of course you won't pull it off, because, let's face it, you have no teamwork. Your teammates are all "n00bs". You are more concerned about your K:D ratio then saving that D-chamber that is under attack. You don't use voice-com or chat to communicate with your team. You can't be bothered to convince your team to work together. You scold the 2:nd person that goes gorge because you still live in the dreamland where you will get a 2:nd hive up if you just have one gorge save resources.
So yeah, unless you are willing to adapt a bit and maybe take responsibility for your and your teams shortcomings and actually do something about it, your best bet is to stop playing 1.04 and wait for the next update of Barbies Pet Rescue.. ehh.. I mean 1.1
the counters known to are: webbing (as soon as you get a warning, then WEB) and mass OC building with some DCs beneath the hive and letting skulks try the whole time chomping them.
(NOTE:as for this patch thingie, maybe they could release some teaser patch with perhaps a few(few=2-4) small changes on it? so they'll keep the masses happy and can spend more time on the real 1.1 before the masses start mass posting 'bout: "WHEN IS 1.1 OUT" again?)
I played a game yesterday where we had 1 gorge, who never put up a single OC or DC till the 2nd hive was up, he capped all the res nozzles, pooled his REZ and never worried about losing a RT.
Why?
He had a body guard and our team was forcing the Marines to defend there own base.
plus as soon as one of them attacked a RT, we were all over them.
Team work is the most important thing!
If you play as a team, JP/HMG's won't stop you!
I find it helps to be on a team of OLDER players (ages 18 to 30), they listen more and work as a team better!
WE ARE TOAST
V
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> .............
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> ............ <!--emo&::onos::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tiny.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tiny.gif'><!--endemo--> <---- Dinner time! thank you 1.1
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> ...........
On topic, a patch, eh, it sounds good... but chances are it'll slow 1.1, which I'd much rather have.
The problem is that too many aliens player refuse to adapt. They falsely and blindly believe that they must absolutely not "waste" any res on anything else than 3 DCs, RTs, and a 2nd hive to win. Yet doing that is the best way to get crushed by a JP/HMG rush. Then they cry imbalance and say it's impossible to win. 1 lerk + a few well placed OCs + DCs under the hive (more than 3, try 6-7) make it basically impossible to JP rush the hive successfully.
Marines control the map in the early game. To win, you must take that control away from them. THAT is your true priority, NOT getting a 2nd hive up ASAP. DCs/OCs at critical choke points/rooms help immensely, and so do lerks.
YES, the marines dominate far too much, YES, JP/HMG -is- abusive, however a JP/HMG rush is NOT a free win for them if you play it smart.
I don't fully agree with you!
yes the Aliens have toget HIVES
But the Marines have to get the RT's to get any where, you you can get and hold more of the RT's then the Humans, your in control, then you can get a second hive and wath the Marines squirm!
You can't just hope that they come back when 1.1 eventually comes along.....
On topic, a patch, eh, it sounds good... but chances are it'll slow 1.1, which I'd much rather have. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am talking clan matches/gathers here, and yes I play VERY high standard players, I have played lerk for maybe 6 months now (at one point i couldnt fade anymore :o ) so that probably helps, The marine would fly about shooting the hive getting picked off one by one, Spikes are the best weapon IMO. takes 10 to kill a marine with no armour upgrade, and they are 100% acurate to the crosshair (the animation makes it look like they drop off, dont adjust your aim for this) So just get your crosshair over them and they die REALLY fast.
On topic, a patch, eh, it sounds good... but chances are it'll slow 1.1, which I'd much rather have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I am talking clan matches/gathers here, and yes I play VERY high standard players, I have played lerk for maybe 6 months now (at one point i couldnt fade anymore :o ) so that probably helps, The marine would fly about shooting the hive getting picked off one by one, Spikes are the best weapon IMO. takes 10 to kill a marine with no armour upgrade, and they are 100% acurate to the crosshair (the animation makes it look like they drop off, dont adjust your aim for this) So just get your crosshair over them and they die REALLY fast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah right :rolls eyes:
The simple patch would be either:
1. Don't let JP's recharge unless the marine is on the ground, or
2. Decrease fuel amount to ½ and make it so it takes double time to refuel.
You can do both, but that is cutting it a little close i think...
Anyhow if you can ground a Jetpacker just 50% of the time, he will no longer be "invincible" and able to solo hive. On the other hand, he should still be able to do a lot of other stuff, like going thought vents...
Just my 2 cents.
a) Forgo a 2nd hive alltogether? - ahh 2 hive lock down, dont ya just love it.
b) deny marines res - yeah that works, provided they dont relocated to dbl res.
c) Lerk - vs HMG/JP? not a chance.
I understand the chances of there ever being a 1.05 patch are about the same as a la/lmg vs Onos.
But what i dont understand is how ppl cant see a problem with 1.04
Maybe its coz in New Zealand we have a relatively small NS community, and as a result we have a lot more experienced players compared to the number of noobs. My point is, when you get top players battling it out, you hardly ever see an alien win.
Just watch the USA vs NZ demos, aliens didn't win once.
Anyway, fingers crossed 1.1 gets here soon to bring back all the leaving players.
a) Forgo a 2nd hive alltogether? - ahh 2 hive lock down, dont ya just love it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. It's to set up strong defenses in hive rooms/key locations BEFORE getting it or a JP/HMGer will just waltz in and nail it (that, or your initial hive.) You have to make it so that 1) your initial hive and the one you will be taking are JP proof and 2) any attempt at a marine advance toward either hives will be stalled enough for the 2nd hive to finish.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->b) deny marines res - yeah that works, provided they dont relocated to dbl res.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought New Zealanders were "elite"? Relocating is a tactic newbies use that hardly ever pay off VS good aliens. Relocating is essentially giving up map control for at least 5 minutes, and you won't necessarily be able to take it back. Double res or no, you most likely won't be able to stop aliens from getting 2 hives and enough res to use it unless you manage to JP **** one which can be prevented by proper hive defenses (DCs + OCs + 1 lerk.)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->c) Lerk - vs HMG/JP? not a chance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lerk sitting on top of a hive that has DCs under it with some OCs peppered around the hive room VS HMG/JP = lerk.FragCount++
I might add a 1.05 patch would not need to be perfect - we have been teased so long everyone knows the big patch will come one day and rule a lot. It would not need to make NS a perfectly balanced game - just soften up the hard and pointy bits somewhat so NS is a lot more fun for a lot more people. I repeat my statement a pre-release of one or several of the new maps would likely also stir up interest. The regular maps seem to be played dry, or why else are so many people playing custom maps of sometimes downright horrible quality?
Relocating costs, but relocating to dbl res points means you only have to fortify one position, and you get twice the res, and often locks down a hive in the process.
Yes, one rambo JP/HMG can be dealt with, but if the marines can get one, they can get more.
One of the first targets a pair of JP/HMGers go for are the DC's under the hive, they go down easy, once they have, aliens loose def upgrades and hive soon dies.
the speed at which JPs are available is the problem, and that is why they are being changed in 1.1
If you dont believe JP rushes are over powered now, go play a clan match vs some of the top clans and they'll show you just how fast you can crank them out.
If 1.1 is going to only be another 2 weeks away, fine, great, see you on the servers <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
but if all these new changes take another 2 months to test and refine, then its in the best interest of the game to keep things balenced till then - no chance of it happening, but next time im com, dont ask for a jp <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->