A Plea Against Nerfing.

Exploding-Man · May 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">A perfect example why not to nerf things</div> Natural selection has proven to be an extremely fun mod. But nerfing has taken the fun out of certian mods IE counterstrike. So dont tone anything down too much. Its allready pretty balanced as it is.If marine comanders suck thats their problem. A good commander with good players can destroy hives when there are fades and sometimes even ONOS.

Paranoia2MB · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Exploding-Man @ May 28 2003, 03:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> A good commander with good players can destroy hives when there are fades and sometimes even ONOS.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Which happens, how often now?

Thought so, good bye.
lol

Nemesis_Zero · May 2003

The word 'nerfing' doesn't accurately describe what Flayra is doing. 'Reconfiguring the whole balance' hits it better. Thus, things on both sides are being weakened (which then gets called 'nerf' by careless testers), while others are being strengthened. It's just common sense to do both.

Carling · May 2003

The changes in 1.1 seem so much diffrent from 1.04 i belive we will have server running both version for a long time to come. Will be like having 2 games instead of one <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'> lol. Am still not sure if 1.1 will be better than 1.04 but from what i have read sounds like it will be.

Wow your old lol.

Name: <b>Nemesis Zero</b>
Posts: <b>3885</b>
Member No.: <b>75</b>

any one know who is Member No. 1 ?

Jabba_The_Hunt · May 2003

Sorry wheres your example? Theres still tens of thousands of counter strike Servers, I still play counter strike aswell as day of defeat and natural selection.

I never understand peoples objection to counter strike, fair enough if you don't like the game, but people who say the game got worse when it was balanced, or when it went retail don't know what they are talking about. I mean my understanding of the first counter strike beta was that the game became totally unbalanced once one side started winning, as the losing side didn't get any money, you can't say that led to a better game?

So my point is ns will get better as they release patches and upgrades, it may not become the game you want, but you don't have to play it, personally I'll play ns aslong as there are others to play against.

PseudoKnight · May 2003

Flayra is #2 and #1 is a generic forum admin.

Exploding-Man · May 2003

Dont even get me started with counterstrike. Its proof updates arent allways for the better. Lots of people will agree with me that counterstrike is the perfect example to my point. Anyway Im just concerned the aliens will be made too weak. Marines shouldnt let the aliens get all 3 hives anyway, and if they do they deserve to lose. Also toning down melee ability for bunnyhop countering wouldnt be a smart Idea. I heard something was done about this but I dont know what so maybye it was for the better. I dont know because Im not a play tester. Just dont let the game get so "balanced" it becomes not fun to play. And unlike you, Jabba, I will stop playing if the game begins to suck, because I dont like to play sucky games. But right now NS completely owns. Hopefully it will still own later.

Calantus · May 2003

Everybody remembers the bad nerfs, but does anybody remember the good ones? No. To say "Don't nerf" is rediculous. Each situation is different. The biggest problem with nerfing is it is often taken too far (jumping in CS) or done unnecessarily by devs who don't understand the game, and are swayed by the rampant whingeing that goes on by the vocal minority. As long as Flayra understands that nerfing is not the only answer, and that all changes need to be considered carefully and not done in a knee-jerking fashion, then all is right with the world of NS. I get the feeling that he does know this btw.

Besides... you CAN'T nerf a beta. You just can't. Nerfing is lowering the effectiveness of <i>existing</i> systems. If a system put into the beta (ie. onos at hive 1) is overpowered and thus reduced, it is not nerfing; it's tweaking. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>

Exploding-Man · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Calantus @ May 28 2003, 04:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Everybody remembers the bad nerfs, but does anybody remember the good ones? No. To say "Don't nerf" is rediculous. Each situation is different. The biggest problem with nerfing is it is often taken too far (jumping in CS) or done unnecessarily by devs who don't understand the game, and are swayed by the rampant whingeing that goes on by the vocal minority. As long as Flayra understands that nerfing is not the only answer, and that all changes need to be considered carefully and not done in a knee-jerking fashion, then all is right with the world of NS. I get the feeling that he does know this btw.

Besides... you CAN'T nerf a beta. You just can't. Nerfing is lowering the effectiveness of <i>existing</i> systems. If a system put into the beta (ie. onos at hive 1) is overpowered and thus reduced, it is not nerfing; it's tweaking. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'>  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
This is true. Im just afraid it will be overdone.

Nemesis_Zero · May 2003

Let's just say that a) three hives are no more the definite doom they used to be, and b) the marines are currently on the losing end. It'd be idiotic not to change that.

Nil_IQ · May 2003

Um... Didn't I read on the beta board that it is now ALIENS that are overpowered? I can see exactly why that is; aliens have been given a whole lot of extra stuff (move chambers that give energy, wol's that regen without dcs, a USEFULL sensory chamber...) but all the marines were given is electrified tfs and rts.

The marines themselves are just as soft and squishy as ever <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Mebbeh, just mebbeh, instead of nerfing the aliens, marines need to be made more powerful to compensate?

Supernorn · May 2003

lets just stop telling the dev team and the playtesters how to do their job shall we?
they are perfectly capable at making NS better so just leave them at it. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

MonKeyTurD · May 2003

a nerf to me in this game, is making it somehow closer to cs, eg. jumping, ns should employ q2 strafe jumping for all units, even onos <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

Exploding-Man · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil_IQ @ May 28 2003, 04:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Mebbeh, just mebbeh, instead of nerfing the aliens, marines need to be made more powerful to compensate?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
I like how this guy thinks.

Impy_The_Lerk · May 2003

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'>
to fix bunny hopping in ns have a "old man alien" class a guy who runs around the whole server holds marines down and breaks there legs to give them a limp....
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>
-Impy

KingKupo · May 2003

why are we discussing 'bout something that isn't even out yet? just wait 'till it's out and if you don't like it, whip up another thread(or renew this one). but then again, who needs logica?

NS should be around teamwork, and with the reign of the JP/HMG rush, they decided to make some adjustments to JP(maybe they'll make it like before in another verson) 'cause mostly you'll just see one guy with JP/HMG(and if your unlucky 2-3) and he will prollie succeed(sad isn't it?).

Immacolata · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil_IQ @ May 28 2003, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Um... Didn't I read on the beta board that it is now ALIENS that are overpowered? I can see exactly why that is; aliens have been given a whole lot of extra stuff (move chambers that give energy, wol's that regen without dcs, a USEFULL sensory chamber...) but all the marines were given is electrified tfs and rts.

The marines themselves are just as soft and squishy as ever <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Mebbeh, just mebbeh, instead of nerfing the aliens, marines need to be made more powerful to compensate?  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
You've not seen ns 1.1 yet, so your assumptions are understandable but wrong. The reason marines lose a lot right now is mostly due to a small bug and perhaps a bit of economy tweaks. It's not a power problem right now in my opinion. Marines got plenny of whoop-**** to hurl at aliens.

Turkey2 · May 2003

damn I loved q2 strafe jumping, but thats a bit excessive, would be pretty funny though. I used to be able to do some pretty sick jumps.

UnderDOG · May 2003

we still will most likely have something like aliens win in pubs, marine win in matches

criticaI · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil_IQ @ May 28 2003, 04:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> aliens have been given a whole lot of extra stuff (move chambers that give energy, wol's that regen without dcs, a USEFULL sensory chamber...) but all the marines were given is electrified tfs and rts.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
If one more person makes that statement, I am going to hurt them.
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'> <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'>

lolfighter · May 2003

Just making the losing side more powerful can be dangerous though. "Oh, now the marines rule, so we'll make the aliens stronger. Wait, now the aliens are too strong, we'll make the marines stronger." In the end NS will be the HL-equivalent to <a href='http://www.fileplanet.com/files/40000/48479.shtml' target='_blank'>Excessive Overkill</a>.

Seikeden · May 2003

<b>I could selectively edit the flames out of this, but it's easier to just drop a nuke on the whole post. Get a grip, man.</b>

Exploding-Man · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Immacolata @ May 28 2003, 06:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil_IQ @ May 28 2003, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Um... Didn't I read on the beta board that it is now ALIENS that are overpowered? I can see exactly why that is; aliens have been given a whole lot of extra stuff (move chambers that give energy, wol's that regen without dcs, a USEFULL sensory chamber...) but all the marines were given is electrified tfs and rts.

The marines themselves are just as soft and squishy as ever <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'>

Mebbeh, just mebbeh, instead of nerfing the aliens, marines need to be made more powerful to compensate? </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
You've not seen ns 1.1 yet, so your assumptions are understandable but wrong. The reason marines lose a lot right now is mostly due to a small bug and perhaps a bit of economy tweaks. It's not a power problem right now in my opinion. Marines got plenny of whoop-**** to hurl at aliens.  </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> 
Ill trust ya on this one... This is all I wanted to hear.

A Plea Against Nerfing.

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