Spawn Camping
Lucid
Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10534Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10534Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">your opinion</div> It seems alot of people get mad when marines start a spawn camp. They start complaining and calling names. How many of you think its just part of the game (lets keep this discussion to 1.04 please. I think spawn camping may be dealt with in 1.1).
I have no problem with it and think its necessary. Should the aliens be able to run around the map and do whatever they want without having to be responsible for the hive? I think not. If there are 3 marines coming to the hive and most of the aliens are dead should and alien just say "no big deal, they will be nice and wait outside til i'm done chewing this res node" ? If this happens the remaining aliens have to work as a team to stop the spawn camp before it happens. I hear people say that spawn camping takes no skill and no strat because the aliens are so weak when they spawn. But the marines had to make it all the way to the hive without dying, kill all the aliens that might be in the hive when they get there and to do it right you have to time it when there aren't many aliens alive. "well the marines can spawn faster, no fair!" ya but the marines have to spawn, get ammo then get to your hive. Aliens spawn right at the hive, so what.
Oh and i love the "you can spawn camp as long as you shoot the hive too" rule on some servers. Right like i'm gonna unload a clip of ammo into the hive when a pair of skulks comes back to the hive to save it. I'll spawn camp til i get backup then i'll start shooting the hive, or knifing the res node (teamwork). Also if all the aliens are dead i could waste 10-20 bullets on spawners and put the rest of the clip into the hive while still having enough time to reload before the next spawn. Sorry but its your teams fault for not keeping track of how many aliens are dead and where the marines are.
I'll admit this sucks when its like 4 clanners vs nubs but the nubs are gonna lose no matter what the stacked team does right?
Oh and what about the reverse side of this? If most of the marines die should a skulk not be allowed to attack the IP's? ya... right..... If the marines have to be responsible for their base the aliens should be responsible for theirs.
I have no problem with it and think its necessary. Should the aliens be able to run around the map and do whatever they want without having to be responsible for the hive? I think not. If there are 3 marines coming to the hive and most of the aliens are dead should and alien just say "no big deal, they will be nice and wait outside til i'm done chewing this res node" ? If this happens the remaining aliens have to work as a team to stop the spawn camp before it happens. I hear people say that spawn camping takes no skill and no strat because the aliens are so weak when they spawn. But the marines had to make it all the way to the hive without dying, kill all the aliens that might be in the hive when they get there and to do it right you have to time it when there aren't many aliens alive. "well the marines can spawn faster, no fair!" ya but the marines have to spawn, get ammo then get to your hive. Aliens spawn right at the hive, so what.
Oh and i love the "you can spawn camp as long as you shoot the hive too" rule on some servers. Right like i'm gonna unload a clip of ammo into the hive when a pair of skulks comes back to the hive to save it. I'll spawn camp til i get backup then i'll start shooting the hive, or knifing the res node (teamwork). Also if all the aliens are dead i could waste 10-20 bullets on spawners and put the rest of the clip into the hive while still having enough time to reload before the next spawn. Sorry but its your teams fault for not keeping track of how many aliens are dead and where the marines are.
I'll admit this sucks when its like 4 clanners vs nubs but the nubs are gonna lose no matter what the stacked team does right?
Oh and what about the reverse side of this? If most of the marines die should a skulk not be allowed to attack the IP's? ya... right..... If the marines have to be responsible for their base the aliens should be responsible for theirs.
Comments
When I read the title though, I immediately thought of the endgame. That is, one team has for all practical purposes won (other team has no resnodes and is confined to one room/hive), but doesn't deal the death blow. For example comm says "Don't kill the hive, let's have some fun instead" and sends five people in with ha/hmg that just kill every respawning alien for a few minutes (luckily there's still F4, which I fully endorse in situations like this). Or one of the aliens insists that you must not touch the Ips so that you can all get 73h "elite" p0\/\/4 57475.
To sum it up: Spawncamp if you will, but do it to win, not to get stats or **** the other team off. Be nice to your enemies, without them, this game wouldn't be half as fun.
Oh and something else, when the game starts maybe for thye first 5mins , if the skulk rush is sucsessful and we kill all the marines but they have an ip, I usualy get everyone to fall back and let them build (in public ) cause wheats the point of having short games? if you play gorge and you have been w8ing for the res for your first res node and then.....readyroom its anoying :/
its part of the game.
but, heh, ive been kicked numerous times for this... when i (alone) spawn camp the hive with full 250 lmg and 30 pistol, i get to kill at least a dozen skulks... they admin_vote_kick me outta the server....
Btw., why are we only talking about marines spawncamping? What's to prevent a pack of skulks from doing the same?
It has an alien counterpart - sometimes a few sadistic gorges web the IPs and healspray or throw babblers at spawning marines. With the base entrance blocked by their WoL , the marines can't escape especially if the comm has been killed.
If they're in your hive, it's pretty much your fault they get there. There is no unwritten rule that says "marines can't go in a hive because it's unethical to go there and if they decide to do so they can't shoot skulks"
Remember it's about as easy to go take down a hive by 3 spawncampers than to take down a marine base with 3 skulks if that base is empty just as well. (1 or 2 get the spawn(s) and the last one covers him and they follow by eating everything up.)
The difference is that marine bases are RARELY empty while hives are often. Why? Go figure.
On the Marine side, this is a lot less of a factor. Multiple spawn points, MUCH higher ROS, and the all-powerful DB pretty much assure that Marines have a chance to bring the game back if a single Skulk (or even a small group) gets into their base and kills all the defenders. Aliens, on the other hand, get to spawn in one at a time, in leisurely fashion, against an enemy with a ranged weapon and effectively unlimited ammo if the Comm drops them more when they're getting low. Plenty of time to reload between single-unupgraded-Skulk spawns, too.
I've only managed to break a Marine spawncamp ONCE, and that was in the Mother Hive on ns_nancy. I had time to drop down into the pit and race around long enough for a second Skulk to spawn, and then darted up to take out a couple of the six (!) marines that were sitting there and spawncamping, never shooting at the Hive itself. Needless to say, they were feeling a little sheepish in the readyroom when we turned the game around after THAT much of an advantage.
Usually the Hive rooms are very open spaces, with little cover. I know this is a design issue... but exactly what were the mappers *thinking*? Hive rooms are, for the most part, PERFECT for the Marine method of fighting. If they had boxes.. pillars.. chunks of discarded vent.. SOMETHING to hide behind, regen and come back at the single spawncamping Marine (Fusion Reactor hive comes to mind especially) then the aliens might have a chance to break the camp. It's a map-design issue though, and not.something that can easily be corrected through a team buff, beyond possibly the group-spawning thing.
Anytime that you have players spawning into the world, there is the chance that your enemy may be there at the exact same time too. Also take the fact that its very easy for players to learn where the spawns points are, and its very easy to be spawn killed. How could spawn camping be dealt with? Heh...
Curiosly:
In an RTS, have you guys ever seen somebody cry "spawn camp" when their base was under attack... and a unit that had just been created at the barracks spawned and was killed?
Spawn camping is ok, the situations most people talk about is when one to three marines enter the hive and starts killing aliens without touching the hive. This is a smart move as it takes 13 lmg-clips to kill a hive and if they start shooting the hive they might let a skulk slip away, in which case they've lost their advantage. In public mode this might be a problem from time to time if there is a complete lack of communication, in which case the one to three marines wont get any reinforcements. This is usually solved by them running out of ammunition due to the lack of a decent commander.
If you were to implement some sort of "anti-rushing" system this would more or less let the aliens do their own thing and forget about hive defense for the first 4-5 minutes. This would not only lessen the team work on public players, but also make the game even more linear, in the sense that marines now only have the option to tech up and then attack (with small alterations such as rush res towers and defend them, or deny the aliens resouces to gain the time advantage needed).
I have no problem with it and think its necessary.
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Oh and what about the reverse side of this? If most of the marines die should a skulk not be allowed to attack the IP's? ya... right..... If the marines have to be responsible for their base the aliens should be responsible for theirs.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spawncamping isn't exactly the most interesting or dynamic thing to do gameplay-wise. Killing the same alien 6 times in a row, just sitting there = fun? Hardly.
I don't think any game is designed with spawncamping intentionally part of the gameplay.
It's only a part of gameplay because it's near impossible to completely prevent it.
The problem isn't so much with a marine being in hive shooting at spawning aliens; the problem is that a spawncamp can be very hard to break (ranged weapon vs melee weapon, no element of surprise in favor of the melee weapon + health&ammo spamming comm) - and the aliens don't have an equivalent to that kind of tactic.
Personally i don't get mad at the spawncampers; they aren't breaking any 'rules'. It's just that this particular rule ('spawncamping is possible') sucks.
If spawncamping is good then why is it that only marines can effectively spawncamp? The only situation where aliens can spawncamp marines is when marines have already lost anyway. Whereas spawncamping by marines can -cause- them to win the game.
The reason why aliens don't always appear to "take responsibility for their hive" is that they don't have enough res early on in the game to make proper defenses for the hive(s). They have to leave the hive to get res, the gorge has to be protected and marines have to be slowed down. They usually can't afford to leave a few skulks for defense, which isn't much of a defense anyway.
So it isn't that marines are more responsible, it's just that they have more res (during startgame).
Anyway this will change with 1.1 since it makes aliens start with more res. No more *waiting* before the 2nd res chamber can go up.
Your players are all dead while the other team is still alive. They are in your base, thus they have more or less won the game already, but you are offered a second chance. You've got a chance, albeit slim, to get rid of those pesky marines and continue the game.
that or more random spawn points, like in maintenance hive on eclipse, you can spawn below the walkway, giving you a chance for marines not to see you spawn.
The main problem....as always is the Alien economy. With Jp's being teched so fast, you have a hard time just getting up 3 rts and a hive befor the marines start shooting it up. If you tried to put down some OCs and DC's in the hive you'll never get to see the 2nd hive.
Fortunatly in 1.1 you could easily have 2 gorges. One res capping and the other sucking and building def in the main hive. Once again 1.1 saves the day! Huzzah....
The idea that aliens can't spawn camp is silly. Haven't you ever had a skulk hanging on your IP while chomping, so that it kills any spawning marines immediately? The only big difference here is that only two or three marines will even have the <i>chance</i> to spawn, since an IP has so much less health than a hive, and the skulk doesn't have to divide it's attention (/ammo) between chomping the IP and chomping the marines, while the marines do. Even if there are two IPs, they can still be effectively spawncamped by a single skulk, unless they happen to both spawn a marine at the exact same time. Just chomp an IP till a marine spawns in your teeth, then switch to the other. Three is probably pushing it, unless they're close together and the spawnings are nicely spaced out timewise.
The only changes that would effect spawn camping that I've seen in the changelogs are slightly more armor for unupgraded skulks, and 40-per-second hive healing instead of 20.
The trick to survive a spawncamp is to not rush the marines right when you spawn if you get a chance to do anything. Just try to make it on top of or behind the hive, while counting the 8 seconds it takes for the next person to spawn. Once the skulks in the hive outnumber the marines, you can probably go eat them.
a) we get mad, angry, frustrated, etc etc when
- were blown to pieces
- eaten
No matter what the game is, were still going to get some feelings when it happens, and its guranteed to happen frequently. The worst camping moments, are when single marine ducks down in the corner. He has a good view everywhere inside the hive, shoots, asks for ammo (and gets). And continues :> Trust me, that can be sooo.. I call this tactic "spawn lockdown", but then again, skulks can spawn camp too, just eat them up.. ..
Sure it does stop both teams from advancing, in that way its part of the game.
BUT if it continues over 5-10 minutes it becomes something else..
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> *hohoo*
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif'><!--endemo--> *oh no...medpack?*
Sure techinically skulks can "spawn camp" too by biting down on the Ips then killing any marines who spawn but the main difference is a skulk can take out an IP in a short time & thus end the "suffering" quickly. It's not as frustrating for the Frontiersmen. Marines, however, can't do the same with a hive so their only option is to endlessly spawn camp. Most people get kinda sick of being spawn camped around the 3rd or so kill. Some may have higher tolerances for it. This is why aliens get more tiresome of marine spawn campers than marines do.
I'm sure this will be better corrected in 1.1 since multiple gorges will become viable & 1 can cap res nozzles while another builds hive defenses early. I personally view spawn camping as lame even if it's a tactic that's accepted by most of the community. People should just learn good ethnics. If you're a marine & you rambo early to the hive then proceed to duck in a corner & spawn camp aliens endlessly then don't be surprised later if the aliens should they get 2 hives go into your base then web up the IPs & kill you for a good 10 minutes. Think about what the other team feels like.
Let me put it this way--if I ran a server (which I don't) I would half-encourage spawn camping. If the Aliens actually let them get there, it's their fault. One time, we relocated to the hive that they were in, built 5 spawn portals, and spawned and shot the hive to death. If the Aliens actually let us build a Command Chair, for one, and 5 other Infantry Portals, they deserve to lose! Even in a hive like Viaduct, it's very easy to fend off spawn camping. I have never lost to spawn camping, since we <i>always</i> have fended them off and killed them. I <i>do</i> think it can be unfair, but really, what other way is there to win? Jetpack/HMG? That certainly counts as spawn camping, since you're all shooting the hive, and when they spawn, you kill them. Sieging? You'd have to set up an outpost outside of the hive, and to keep them from rushing it, you have to spawn camp to keep them off, unless you rely heavily on turrets. Let's face it: killing a hive takes a <i>long</i> time. Even if you have an HMG. Maybe not with fully upgraded weapons, but it takes a while. In that time that you're taking down the hive, Aliens have to spawn. So, as they spawn, you just keep killing them. That counts as spawn camping. When you win as a Marine, it's almost always because of spawn camping. Peeweeuhd.
P.S. No one reply to this or any other post to prevent flaming, just post your opinion on spawn camping.
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I'm not sure if I would view it as "good" per se. But it is somewhat understandable when the hive itself is an objective.
Herein lies a fundamental issue: The very place at which skulks spawn is a marine objective.
So at some point, for marines to win, there will likely be camping of some sort going on. Equally understandable is the fact that the team on the receiving end of the camp will not be having much fun. If it is an extended spawn camp f4 is almost sure to be on the cards.
I would like to see it more difficult for a small band of marines to camp a hive in such a manner. Sounds like the next version might just do that.
Anyway, my opinion is thus:
Spawn camping is only an issue for aliens because of the extreme weakness of fresh-spawned skulks, and marines' ranged weapons. When 'rines spawn, they have all their health and armour, and can jump away and kill the skulk from afar (if it's not a skulk, you're SOL). Not to mention multiple IP's.
Spawn camping is OK as a prelude to losing, especially when the whole team is doing it, but when it's just 1 guy it gets really annoying.
I support aliens spawning in waves, as Flayra suggested he might implement, (that is, when an alien spawns, all other aliens waiting to spawn do so too) which would render solo spawn camping worthless because of lots of spawns at the same time.
This is a bit OT but does anyone else remember back in the first few days of 1.0 when people would accuse you of "Spawn camping" If you tried to destroy thier hive or the marine base? Fun times they were.
Let me put it this way--if I ran a server (which I don't) I would half-encourage spawn camping. If the Aliens actually let them get there, it's their fault. One time, we relocated to the hive that they were in, built 5 spawn portals, and spawned and shot the hive to death. If the Aliens actually let us build a Command Chair, for one, and 5 other Infantry Portals, they deserve to lose! Even in a hive like Viaduct, it's very easy to fend off spawn camping. I have never lost to spawn camping, since we <i>always</i> have fended them off and killed them. I <i>do</i> think it can be unfair, but really, what other way is there to win? Jetpack/HMG? That certainly counts as spawn camping, since you're all shooting the hive, and when they spawn, you kill them. Sieging? You'd have to set up an outpost outside of the hive, and to keep them from rushing it, you have to spawn camp to keep them off, unless you rely heavily on turrets. Let's face it: killing a hive takes a <i>long</i> time. Even if you have an HMG. Maybe not with fully upgraded weapons, but it takes a while. In that time that you're taking down the hive, Aliens have to spawn. So, as they spawn, you just keep killing them. That counts as spawn camping. When you win as a Marine, it's almost always because of spawn camping. Peeweeuhd.
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I don't mind spawn camping as long it's...
1. Apart of killing the hive/base.
2. It's not going to last long.
Like I said before. If a skulk is munching on IPs & kills whoever spawns in then it sucks but it'll be over quickly at least & you have a chance to kill him at least since you spawn in with upgrades unlike aliens who have to gestate to get them. Aliens are much more in danger of being spawn camped in the early game than marines are since skulks die in 9 bullets & marines have the res advantage to get mines/turrents up in their base or by it. If a commander builds in the alien's own hive with 4 IPs & they take it down then yes they deserve to win. Yes, I'll get spawn camped but it's not going to last long at least. It's a lot more honorable than, "LOLz, letz spawn camp dem until we have both hives locked down den get every res node on the map & level 3 everything booyah rofl r00fles!1"
I dunno, maybe I'm the only one who sees there's a problem with 1 lone marine being able to kill off keep the alien team killed off. Kinda kills teamwork. I hope Flayra is able to put in that "wave spawning" so it'll at least eliminate the 1 marine solos alien team.
Btw., as distress beacon does not rely on Ips, but uses the spawn points that you appear in when you enter the game (those at the marine start in other words), it is considerably less useful if you relocate to a hive. Your own fault I say. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->