Limits And Guidelines

Solaris · May 2003

<div class="IPBDescription">a few questions about better ns-mapping</div> Hi ppl.

I'm not aktually new to mapping (did some maps for quite a lot of games like Duke3D, Quake2, UT and so on) but new to NS-Mapping.
Maybe other mappers have the same problems but didn't post them thinking this is too "noobish" <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

After playing around with hammer and some of the entities I started to work an my first "serious" map for NS.
I studied the official mapping guidelines and did well about that "tactical" and "balancing", but what really troubles me is the limits for the r_speeds stated in the mapping guidelines.

First i designed my rooms using brushed only, after i hit the 800 w_poly I changed "supporting" architecture like pipes, lights, crates, computers and so on to func_wall entities, because i read somewhere that changin brushes to entities would lower the w_poly and increase the e_poly... but it didn't... w_poly still above 800 and e_poly 0.
Maybe I got something wrong about that technique? or just forgot a compiler option?
Would be nice if somebody could help me out.

Another thing i heared about is hit-brushes.. but i still could figure out in what places to put them to be really effective.
How exactly does this work? Are there any good tutorials about it? I couldn't find any <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif'>

Another question about the r_speed-limit is: does this limit also count in the ready room or may I have 1200 w_poly there?

Thx

Solaris

BlackSeer · May 2003

Some articles that can help out, you can find more on the same site

<a href='http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?go=polygon_reduction_1' target='_blank'>http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?...gon_reduction_1</a>

<a href='http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?go=polygon_reduction_2' target='_blank'>http://collective.valve-erc.com/index.php?...gon_reduction_2</a>

<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>

gaggle · May 2003

You can get away with more w_poly's in the ready room, yes, simply put because there's no fighting going on there so lower FPS won't be noticed as much.

Don't go much over 1000 of 'em though, at some point the software-render starts dropping faces like mad. Make sure you do tests with it.

It sounds like you need to dwelve deeper yet into the matters of w_polys before really grasping what's going on. It's a tricky buisness for sure, seemingly simple rooms can end up taking up loads of w_'s, and vice versa. One thing to remember with the Half-Life engine is that we get static lighting more or less for free. You should always remember to use lighting to your advantage, to hide areas without much detail, and to draw attention to the areas that does have sufficient detail. Certainly more of an art than science once you move into that area though.

The best way to avoid running into w_ poly overkill is to test, test, and test everything you build. Make it simple at first, and build it up from there. Don't build entire rooms between each compile only to find out you're going to have to delete a lot of stuff to make it playable. Since you've editied before you'll likely already be aware of those things though, so I'm really just mentioning it for the sake of having it mentioned <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'>.

amckern · May 2003

lern how to use hint brushes, these can save upto 80 pollys if used right

learn the gl_wireframe 2 tricks - these will show you the curant vis porthole your in, and also how many brushes are drawn - moving walls can make the vis porthole smaller, or bigger, and also change the size of the brushes that are drawn - the smaller the drawn brush the larger the r_speeds

check out the mapping for ns guide found in my sig

amckern

PS do a search for this at the counter map forums - <a href='http://countermap.counter-strike.net' target='_blank'>http://countermap.counter-strike.net</a> as tommy14 knows alot about this, and has made a valube contabution vioa the counter map forums with it

Ollj · May 2003

Solid walls and all brushes cause w_poly.
Converting random pipes into brushes will get you more w_poly most times because you see All sides of a visible brush (even backsides) and brushes do not affect VIS, and full VIS makes w_poly small.

e_poly are just all visible MODELS (point entities) in your map.

Solaris · May 2003

Thanx for the help so far.

After some testing and experimenting i pushed tho w_poly count in the current "problem area" from over 1000 down to 823 max (but still not below the official limit <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'>).

The "trick" to convert brushes into func_walls to avoid sliting up surfaces has turned out not to be much of a help... I saved 5 polys of the wall, but now have 7 additional polys from the pipe in converted to func_wall.
Are there any "standard situations" where converting to func_wall is a good idea in general and where it should be avoided?

About the texture scaling... first I used most textures on a 0.5 or even 0.25 scale, because they fit much better into the design that way..
When you say using a texture scaled to 2.0 it will save polys... does this work in both ways?
So will scaling a texture from 1.0 to 0.5 ADD some polys, too?
Does this only work with "full" integer values like 1.0 or 2.0 or will there be lower polys, too, if I scal a texture from 1.0 to 1.5?

Thanks for the tutorial links, but out of the two one was aimed at singleplayer poly-reduction only... the technique described there, however reminds me of what the hint-brush should do.
Bad thing i still haven't found a good tutorial how hint-brushed actually work and how they are used right.

Thx 4 your help

Solaris / Sonja

Frogg2 · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Solaris @ May 13 2003, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> About the texture scaling... first I used most textures on a 0.5 or even 0.25 scale, because they fit much better into the design that way..
When you say using a texture scaled to 2.0 it will save polys... does this work in both ways?
So will scaling a texture from 1.0 to 0.5 ADD some polys, too?
Does this only work with "full" integer values like 1.0 or 2.0 or will there be lower polys, too, if I scal a texture from 1.0 to 1.5?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>
No, it will increase your w_poly.

Do a test map, make a room do 1 wall with texs scaled to 2x
Make another with .5scale texs

compile load the map and turn on gl_wireframe notice how the texture scale affects how the wall is broken up.

amckern · May 2003

</span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>About the texture scaling... first I used most textures on a 0.5 or even 0.25 scale, because they fit much better into the design that way..
When you say using a texture scaled to 2.0 it will save polys... does this work in both ways?
So will scaling a texture from 1.0 to 0.5 ADD some polys, too?
Does this only work with "full" integer values like 1.0 or 2.0 or will there be lower polys, too, if I scal a texture from 1.0 to 1.5?
</td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'>

csg cuts the walls on the texture sizes

if the wad says the texture is a 64 x 64 (most normal csg cuts are done with this 64x64) - then scaling the texture down to 1/2 its size will make csg cut the brush more then at its normal size - making the texture larger also increases the csg cut size, meaning less vis leafs, and reduced pollys

tommy14 · May 2003

see my tutorial about <a href='http://www.slackiller.com/tommy14/tex-dimensions.htm' target='_blank'>Texture dimensions vs. appearance, memory, and r_speeds </a>, i think it covers most of this.

Limits And Guidelines

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