Wanna Secure A Location For Cheap?
Kazyras
Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9722Members
Join Date: 2002-11-23 Member: 9722Members
<div class="IPBDescription">... and it's still early into the game?</div> "We're at cargo/processing/whatever comm, drop a TF."
How often do you hear this? My question is: why bother with sentries? They're more expensive than vital organs on the black market and they really don't help all that much against skulks unless you have a mass (5+) of them.
My solution is this: Just drop an armory and several packs of mine. Not only do you provide a source of unlimited ammo for your guards which makes it eventually pay for itself once they spend their 13th clip of ammo, it's a lot cheaper than a turret farm however small it is, and a lot more effective against skulks. Skulks have the tendency to make nearby sentries absorb every bullet fired at them (more on this in my upcoming structure placement topic) while the latter desperately (assume for an instant that an inanimate automated defense structure can be desperate) try to track and nail them. Often they kill all the guards and get killed by a sentry, then the next wave will chew down a sentry to create a blind spot on the TF and the location will be lost. Whereas with mines, skulks will have no cover except potentially the armory, and chances are, during all the running/hopping/dodging that occurs during fights, they'll end up blowing themselves up on a mine before doing any damage at all.
The reaction I sometimes get with this strategy are amusing:
"WTH an armory?"
Well yeah, so you can get ammo and easily mine the place up.
"We already have one in base!"
Do you mean by that that you will haul your butt all the way back to spawn to get ammo, or do you expect me to build 50 res worth of phase gates so we can follow your unwritten rule of "no more than 1 armory"?
How often do you hear this? My question is: why bother with sentries? They're more expensive than vital organs on the black market and they really don't help all that much against skulks unless you have a mass (5+) of them.
My solution is this: Just drop an armory and several packs of mine. Not only do you provide a source of unlimited ammo for your guards which makes it eventually pay for itself once they spend their 13th clip of ammo, it's a lot cheaper than a turret farm however small it is, and a lot more effective against skulks. Skulks have the tendency to make nearby sentries absorb every bullet fired at them (more on this in my upcoming structure placement topic) while the latter desperately (assume for an instant that an inanimate automated defense structure can be desperate) try to track and nail them. Often they kill all the guards and get killed by a sentry, then the next wave will chew down a sentry to create a blind spot on the TF and the location will be lost. Whereas with mines, skulks will have no cover except potentially the armory, and chances are, during all the running/hopping/dodging that occurs during fights, they'll end up blowing themselves up on a mine before doing any damage at all.
The reaction I sometimes get with this strategy are amusing:
"WTH an armory?"
Well yeah, so you can get ammo and easily mine the place up.
"We already have one in base!"
Do you mean by that that you will haul your butt all the way back to spawn to get ammo, or do you expect me to build 50 res worth of phase gates so we can follow your unwritten rule of "no more than 1 armory"?
Comments
armoury = 25 res
lets say 6 packs of mines which is quite alot = 48
3 turrets = 57
Ok, so you could set up a armoury with 6 mines, or a tf with 3 turrets.
BUT, if you want to keep that place drop a phase gate, and eventually you have to drop a tf because your men won't stay there and keep on holding it. And when in a pub do you actually get 5 people to be at the same spot at the same time?.
armoury = 25 res
lets say 6 packs of mines which is quite alot = 48
3 turrets = 57
Ok, so you could set up a armoury with 6 mines, or a tf with 3 turrets.
BUT, if you want to keep that place drop a phase gate, and eventually you have to drop a tf because your men won't stay there and keep on holding it. And when in a pub do you actually get 5 people to be at the same spot at the same time?. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
TF + 3 turrets = hahahahah lol. As I skulks I take that down with pretty much ease.
Armory + <b>6</b> pack of mines?? Are you insane, 3 are more than enough to secure a place. IMO turrets as in 1.04 are completely waste of res unless you're sieging a location.
armoury = 25 res
lets say 6 packs of mines which is quite alot = 48
3 turrets = 57
Ok, so you could set up a armoury with 6 mines, or a tf with 3 turrets.
BUT, if you want to keep that place drop a phase gate, and eventually you have to drop a tf because your men won't stay there and keep on holding it. And when in a pub do you actually get 5 people to be at the same spot at the same time?. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
TF + 3 turrets = hahahahah lol. As I skulks I take that down with pretty much ease.
Armory + <b>6</b> pack of mines?? Are you insane, 3 are more than enough to secure a place. IMO turrets as in 1.04 are completely waste of res unless you're sieging a location. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't keep a location without turrets, skulks can jump over mines, turrets are the next best thing to marines.
i havent.
Err, just spend a second or two to *think!*
A skulk can jump over a few mines, yes. But if the Armour/Area has 30 mines planted all over the floor, where is the skulk gonna jump to? He is gonna get blown to bits, unless he wants to spend 5 minutes half-stepping around each individual mine.
Ak.
"No, just place the damn mines in the vents and the buildings k.thnx"
n00b plants all mines in one doorway at skulk height, so anything can jump over it.
n00b refuses to leave location because of the red trip mines and he doesn't wanna get killed.
Err, just spend a second or two to *think!*
A skulk can jump over a few mines, yes. But if the Armour/Area has 30 mines planted all over the floor, where is the skulk gonna jump to? He is gonna get blown to bits, unless he wants to spend 5 minutes half-stepping around each individual mine.
Ak. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The roof. I'm hoping with 1.1 and the skulk body being rotated the proper way that it'll be easier to run upside-down in the roof, but even now, you can use it to get around the pesky floor mines.
I also like how <i>quickly</i> mines can be set up as opposed to turrets. It takes barely more than the time to get one armory up to secure some areas (quite evil?), although the mines will have to be maintained (well worth it?).
And they can keep entrances mined (see <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=20&t=31760' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...ST&f=20&t=31760</a> for details) and they can put mines on top of things as well, so why would you plan on them not doing that? This is an effective strategy but of course people who don't know how to play might waste their mines and you might make them pay. I didn't think this forum was to discuss how good strategies can be defeated when newbies perform them poorly.
Marines (with pistol) + turrets > Marines + mines.
This is what happens when you have a base with just turrets in it: skulks find/make a blind spot and eat everything.
You need marines to hold a location. Mines and turrets are just there to assist. Mines do just as good a job at assisting when you are fighting skulks, but for a whole lot less res. When fades come around, a mined hive is a deathtrap, and turrets aren't much better at holding out against acid spam. So, if you're going to defend a location, either don't let them get fades or don't plan on keeping it for long :-p
So, you're only left with two times that areas (other than your base, duh) are actually worth defending. One, of course, is the two hive lockdown. The other is when you are sieging a hive. Locking down hives is well done with mines, because it prevents the kharaa from getting fades. If you are sieging, you might as well get at least a few turrets to protect your investment. A pack of mines around the TF does wonders, too.
Note: This will not work against fades.
What kind of games do you play? "I find a free spot and eat the whole base"? Yeah? WHat is the COM doing, sleeping? What are the Marines doing, watching TV?
I don't drop an armory in MB, I drop 1-2 IP's, then the Armory at the first point I want to control (Reactor Room/Atmos/Mess Hall/etcetc). This works. 2-4 packs of mines + a constant Marine presence (they will be heading there for ammo anyway, even if you don't station a guard), you will not get in there "find a mine free spot" or whatever and eat anything. You will run in there, jump over a mine, get shot by a marine and blow up on another mine while trying to doge/get the Marine.
You need an armory anyway, you don't *need* a TF. So by building the armory the way I just said it is basically "free", you have to build it anyway, so the real cost is:
16-32 pts for mines
instead of
20+19x3=77 res for TF and Turrets.
Oh, and you will not take down a TF with three turrets by yourself unless the COM is incompetent, I guarantee it. If you're constantly clearing out mined bases and eating TF's as a skulk, stop playing on newbie servers.
My point stands: you need to have marines around to have any kind of successful base defense. You can go around mines and stand on the structures to eat them, and turrets are defeated with a circle-strafe/blindspot tactic. However you get your marines to be there is up to you.
"No, just place the damn mines in the vents and the buildings k.thnx"
n00b plants all mines in one doorway at skulk height, so anything can jump over it.
n00b refuses to leave location because of the red trip mines and he doesn't wanna get killed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ho Ho Ho!
I need a hearty laugh <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
No matter how many mines you have guarding how many entrances, a skulk will always find a way.
Fades aren't free, either, and neither is hive 2. A good commander is contesting these kinds of things and has a pretty good idea of when the aliens will be able to achieve these things. Using mines will not screw them up.
If you have something worth defending...choke point, hive etc. you assign guards, we both agree on
But then you say that the guards will get killed and after that the TF will. Whats the difference in having a path of mines blown up and then your guards killed? You need to place mines very well in many places to hold a skulk out, and once thye get carpace they need 2-3 mines to blow up...thats about 1 pack of mines to hold one skulk out...once...
They will probably come 2-3 at the time and are able to kill marines
the best way to defend is to use phasegates and then have a TF(or mines if you wish) to keep the skulks from eating you phase before reinforcements arrive. With a TF, they need to take out 1 turret and then the TF unless they wish to die all the time. Without a TF they need to blow up one hole in a doorway and another mine at the phase(armoury in your case). Correct me if im wrong but mines dont take long to blow but a TF does...
Main thing though, you use these turrets and mines to buy TIME, for your more intelligent and well aiming(hopefully) marines to get there.
Every time I try guarding a turret farm from skulks, I almost always die. It's very hard for me to move/dodge with all those structures around, secondly, skulks often just jump over everything and own me while I'm trying desperately to dodge but keep getting stuck in those things who rival with expensive furniture in the usefulness & affordability departments. When I try shooting at the skulks, it seems the sentries are the one receiving all the bullets. Whenever a turret FINALLY kills the skulks, it's often very long after I and the other defenders are dead and most turrets half chewed if not gone.
Yes, there's the mines + turrets thing, but you're only really compensating for the sentries' lack of effectiveness. Plus it's very expensive. All that money could be spent on upgrades like MT to make your guards more effective and weapon upgrades to make them & the mines deadlier. Just use marines instead of sentries and toss them several packs of mines to help.
|............T
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|TF..PG..T
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works great if you can find a little crany tp put it in so its like this
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|TF.PG..T
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<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->have you ever seen a skulk dodge over 30 mines in one spot, while trying to fight off marins at the same time?
i havent.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i have, they tend not to mine the floor most often, and then put laser ones one door walls, they cant alwasy reach the door roof, so you can often slip by there, and if the can reach the roof, suicide it once
the marines had takin some place and had tf and pg there (it was probly a hive local cus we realy wanted it and they had the other) so i carad and snuk around about 30-40+ mines (no joke they lined the floors all acrose the entrence, it took efort to get around em) then i bite there humpers, bit a spawner or 2 and almost killed ther bases pg (which was half the purpose, the other half was to distract them so they dont reinforce those defending i think it was fusion, and maybe pull some from there to main base) and just generaly made a nusence of myself, did that twice, second time i hit a laser (it was on the other side of the wall so my cara saved me, but i was hurtin) and didnt live as long, 3rd time they stoped me but that ok, my distraction let the others take fusion and hive 2 was almost done, we then faded, blasted the mines (it was desighned so blasting the mines didnt hurt the rines though <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo--> killed main base, and the relocated to waste, which we asulted. (i told them not to destroy the phase gate at rine base cus we could use it to get right to the middle of waste, i did that 2 times till some fade decided he had to kill the pg, then i had to go the long way <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
long story short, mines are more of a deturant than anything else, tf can keep away more troublesome aliens, marines are the best, but keep the others as backup
Dmg should be higher too, at least with wpn uppgraes...ever tried to kill a hive with regular turrets? I did...took what? almost the time to build the damn thing...or at least make them faster so they will kill something from time to time..
Mines are better if you get all of them to blow up and replace them, but thats the problem...to secure a position and move on you cant replace them...turrets at least dont need to be reloaded =/...
If you spend 100 000 000 res on 6 turrets, TF, Phase, armoury and 4 packs of mines, just to be able to leave it unwatched...
Basedefence should be easier...right now defence is unimportant for marines...they constantly need to push...OCs are better for that same reason...still costs less
About this matter, i would definately go for turrets. One trespassing gorge spits and your men are dead and your little outpost completely destroyed. Or a fade. Turrets are a lot harder to kill for a fade than mines. Except that also turrets are easy to kill for a fade, but you know what i mean allright <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
You cannot realistically afford turrets in the early game either. If you go for turrets to secure a location, then your marines will not have the upgrades necessary to fight skulks with carapace and they will get owned elsewhere. Amory + mining is cheap enough to still allow for reasonably fast upgrading, and plenty effective enough to deny 1 hive skulks an important location.
Turrets and a TF is a onetime investment...mines needs to be replaced and constatly guarded...one way is to simpl put down a phase and mines the whole thing so you can zap marines in when needed, but in 1.1 that wont work as well either...