The 1.1 Veteran Test
Chopper_Dave1
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Is competitive play the right play?</div> Hi guys, haven't been around for a while thanks to a sudden loss of internet provider. I'm sure you all missed me. Sadly enough, I will have finals in just two weeks, so it'll still be some time before I become as active in this community as I was a month ago...
But I digress. I noticed today that NS has entered a playtest, and I am a bit concerned about the testers. Now, I understand the desire to make NS one of the "best competitive game to play" evar. Heck, I heavily anticipate it. But I can't get over this feeling that whatever balance these guys achieve during testing will be horribly unbalanced in your standard public server.
For example, pretend the playtesters come to the conclusion that, in order to keep balance in jetpack tactics, a jetpacker should only be able to have around 3 seconds of sustained flight. Now this ends up being just peachy for clan matches, but the poor n00bs in the public servers can't pick up a jetpack without running out of fuel, cratering, and wasting the team's resources. In the wonderful tradition of the NS community, a few people castigate the n00b for being an idiot, and after a few minutes, he gets frustrated and leaves the mod for good.
Extreme example, but the point still stands. Is clan match balance also good enough for public matches? It's all fine and good for us veterans if they game is so tightly knit that no cheap tactics can be used, but the newer players to NS might find themselves presented with an even greater learning curve and less room for error than ever before.
I know it's a bit unreasonable, but I think that the already implemented "casual match" and "competitive match" gameplay styles should be fully fleshed out in order to make NS 1.1 a good release for everyone. "Competitive match" should include all the gameplay checks and balances the expert playtesters come to agree upon, in order that clan matches could be as even and fun for them as possible. Meanwhile, "casual match" should be a completely different beast - perhaps with less expensive purchase prices, faster respawn times, and just a more leniant gameplay system in general. Servers would decide which type of gameplay style to use - popular n00b servers would probably stick to casual, while the more regular-frequented servers might run competitive play to keep things interesting.
In the very least, take the n00bs' needs into consideration while designing NS 1.1 - let's not make things too hard for new players and potential fans.
Thoughts?
But I digress. I noticed today that NS has entered a playtest, and I am a bit concerned about the testers. Now, I understand the desire to make NS one of the "best competitive game to play" evar. Heck, I heavily anticipate it. But I can't get over this feeling that whatever balance these guys achieve during testing will be horribly unbalanced in your standard public server.
For example, pretend the playtesters come to the conclusion that, in order to keep balance in jetpack tactics, a jetpacker should only be able to have around 3 seconds of sustained flight. Now this ends up being just peachy for clan matches, but the poor n00bs in the public servers can't pick up a jetpack without running out of fuel, cratering, and wasting the team's resources. In the wonderful tradition of the NS community, a few people castigate the n00b for being an idiot, and after a few minutes, he gets frustrated and leaves the mod for good.
Extreme example, but the point still stands. Is clan match balance also good enough for public matches? It's all fine and good for us veterans if they game is so tightly knit that no cheap tactics can be used, but the newer players to NS might find themselves presented with an even greater learning curve and less room for error than ever before.
I know it's a bit unreasonable, but I think that the already implemented "casual match" and "competitive match" gameplay styles should be fully fleshed out in order to make NS 1.1 a good release for everyone. "Competitive match" should include all the gameplay checks and balances the expert playtesters come to agree upon, in order that clan matches could be as even and fun for them as possible. Meanwhile, "casual match" should be a completely different beast - perhaps with less expensive purchase prices, faster respawn times, and just a more leniant gameplay system in general. Servers would decide which type of gameplay style to use - popular n00b servers would probably stick to casual, while the more regular-frequented servers might run competitive play to keep things interesting.
In the very least, take the n00bs' needs into consideration while designing NS 1.1 - let's not make things too hard for new players and potential fans.
Thoughts?
Comments
I haven't heard anything saying they will influence the future of NS...
The purpose of veteran testing is took look for exploits, or glaring imbalances in gameplay structure. Things like the processing double siege in Hera (which didn't exist until a few days before release, one testing was completed on 1.0), or the siege cannon behind the unopenable door in Nancy. They will also be looking at resource economy, making sure that Marines and Kharra get upgrades and enhancements at the same rate, or if that rate differs that the side with the speed disadvantage has some kind of compensation.
As far as noobs go, if you are new to NS, you are going to get chastised at some point, there is no avioding that. This is just that kind of game. Also, whenever I command, I separate the noobs from the vets pretty quickly; vets get all the goodies first, so if a noob get a jetpack it means I can afford another if he dies. So I guess part of the responsibility for wasted res is on the commander as well <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
And I doubt that the Devs will cater to the competetive players at the expense of more casual players. They know that for a game to be successful you have to cater to the big masses, not the elite. For good and for bad.
I know it's a bit unreasonable, but I think that the already implemented "casual match" and "competitive match" gameplay styles should be fully fleshed out in order to make NS 1.1 a good release for everyone. "Competitive match" should include all the gameplay checks and balances the expert playtesters come to agree upon, in order that clan matches could be as even and fun for them as possible. Meanwhile, "casual match" should be a completely different beast - perhaps with less expensive purchase prices, faster respawn times, and just a more leniant gameplay system in general.
In the very least, take the n00bs' needs into consideration while designing NS 1.1 - let's not make things too hard for new players and potential fans.
Thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok.. Such a "switch" between casual and competitive play already exists. mp_tournamentmode. This server variable can be set to 0 or 1. With tournament mode on, It costs resources to respawn, friendly fire damages your teammates & structures.
<!--QuoteBegin--lyndak+May 6 2003, 8:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (lyndak @ May 6 2003, 8:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I thought the veteran test was only to let these so called veterans play the game?
I haven't heard anything saying they will influence the future of NS... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thanks, glad to know I'm only a "so called Vet" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
As for the qualifications of anybody that Charlie selects, you can be sure that we are all quite qualified.
And yes, the Veterans are there to INFLUENCE the competitive aspects of v1.1. Thats the whole point.
We are also mindful of casual play.
The testing is proceeding <i>somewhat</i> with regard to plan, although not to many of the Playtesters or Vets play 1.1 anymore. Its tough to get together timewise with exams and so few people.
But rest assured, Flayra, the dev team, the Playtesters, and the Veterans have been working like dogs to bring a better NS to everybody. In the two weeks I've been playing, we've had 3 server-side patches and 1 client side patch, plus numerous changes in game by Flayra.
Flayra has this great system that allows him to change certain values live. The most comical thing I ever saw was when he increased electric damage while HAMBONE was munching a node. HAMBONE died =D hehe
<!--QuoteBegin--Stoneburg+May 6 2003, 9:51 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stoneburg @ May 6 2003, 9:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And I doubt that the Devs will cater to the competetive players at the expense of more casual players. They know that for a game to be successful you have to cater to the big masses, not the elite. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Be assured, NS is going to be very fun game both for casual & competitive play.
I'm betting we'll hear from MonsE (maybe with some PR-like stuff) sometime soon. Notice how quiet that little bugger has been as of late ?
We're supposed to have even games at 2 hives (in 1.04), but more often than not the marine team collapses when fades appear. Surely everyone has had their share of a team of not-so-skilled players F4 when the first fade appears, not realizing that level 3 weapons/armor can hold them back no problem.
Are fades unbalanced...? No. Are they unbalanced in pubs where marines lack clan type-tactics to bring them down with just lmg's...? I would say so.
I would have hoped they'd have tested 1.1 with a batch of random players, seeing as that's what the vast majority of us will play with every day - seven strangers with varying ability and levels of combativeness who have to pull together for a win.
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's not good.
To be honest I've always been kinda reluctant to make any suggestions or critize Flayra's playtesting methods. I cannot claim to know what playtesting is like from the developers end and I'd hate to accidently insult anybodies intelligence or experience.
But I do know not having enough people during playtesting cannot be a good thing...
<!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif'><!--endemo-->
Flayra and the playtesters realize that while we do a decent job finding most of the problems under the hood of NS, there are some things that the "average player" - most people, including most playtesters - isn't going to find, simply because they require a level of ability that he/she doesn't possess.
That's why vets are critical to testing NS 1.1 - they really do have gaming skills that astonish me at times, and techniques that would be beyond me are standard operating procedure for them. I remember one playtest where we decided to test the efficacy of a certain kind of rush... and after the game ended, I realized that as well as we did, top-level clanners probably could have done it in half the time and with half the expense. If you asked me to JP-solo a hive, I wouldn't have nearly as good a chance of pulling it off as someone who really knows how to handle a jetpack and has the twitch skills to deal with incoming threats.
The vets and playtesters are ALL testing 1.1, in the interests of both pub and clan play. With regard to how well it's going, most of you are aware that it's the end of the school year, and many of the testers are bogged down in finals (or senior theses, as the case may be *cough*). We still get some healthy playtests going on the weekend, and during the week as well (though less frequently). I would say that 1.1 is moving steadily towards release, and should hit it right when it's ready. (;
Which direction is ns going for?
By the way welcome back chopper.
Seriously, pubbing in 1.1 is 10x as fun as pubbing in 1.04 was. I promise you won't be disappointed by it.
No, the only obvious change between tourney mode and casual pubbing is that Friendly fire is on, and spawning cost res, as Critical stated.
<b>Note from Flayra:</b> Spawning does NOT cost res in tourny mode.
I love Sealab 2021 <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
I still think Dave raises a valid point. I guess the advantage of a big client patch like 1.1 is that smaller server side patches can be released afterwards if the game is not properly balanced in all environments.
That said there's still the problem, if you can call it that, which has been in NS from the very beginning. If one team has experianced players who know how to work as a team, then they will almost certainly go on to win against a less experianced team. Sometimes it can be as simple as one player: a really good commander or a brilliant skulk. In any case experianced players are usually the defining line between success and failure.
Is this a bad thing? Well no, but it's virtually impossible to make the game both noob and veteran friendly. As it stands, NS will still be a game where the veterans of the game will hold the key to victory. New players will have to rely on other's experiance to learn how to play. Hence we, the people who have been with NS since the beginning, are the ones who should be helping the new players out. The developers can only bring so many elemants into the game before it becomes too "noob-friendly", which results in veterans getting a poorer gameing experiance and less entertainment. Given that NS is likely going to remain a game where experiance is needed for victory, it is up to we veterans to pass on our knowledge and skills to new players. I know from personal experiance that complete newbs can be transformed into excellent players in just a few days.
Our course is set! Educate the masses! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
rgr, I think this is what Flayra intends.
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+May 7 2003, 01:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ May 7 2003, 01:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If one team has experianced players who know how to work as a team, then they will almost certainly go on to win against a less experianced team.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are a brilliant man <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--Ryo-Ohki+May 7 2003, 01:13 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ May 7 2003, 01:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Given that NS is likely going to remain a game where experiance is needed for victory, it is up to we veterans to pass on our knowledge and skills to new players.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
NS will remain a game where experience and "twitch" skills are needed for victory. Thats the incentive to keep practicing and learning the game.
<3 boobs
We appreciate pub servers too. We're not going to ruin that aspect of the game. If we did that, we'd never find new clanners to take under our wings and educate. So, hold your horses, let both sets of PTs do their jobs, and I'm more than positive you'll be happy with the end result.
These replies are enough to give me those warm fuzzy feelings deep inside where I am sensitive like a women.
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't think the tension between casual and competitive play actually exists. As I see it, a game either works (i.e., it's "balanced") or it doesn't.
Pubs play the same game as clans, and all flaws in the game equally affect them, only less visibly and at a slower pace. If some aspects of the game are broken, the pubs will suffer eventually (as 1.0x demonstrated). However, if the game is balanced and fun at the highest level, newbies, who are essentially playing a subset of it, won't encounter problems either.
If it's true for every other kind of game, why should multiplayer FPSs be any different? Chess, Go, soccer, tennis... doesn't matter if you play them in your backyard or at the world championship, the rules are the same and the games work.
<span style='color:white'>Expand your vocabulary.</span>
[edit]
Everyone who plays a game cares only about the winning. Professional players are simply better at winning than casual players. That is why you don't play chess against Gary Kasparov. However, the game of chess itself must still be free of exploits, so that Kasparov can play a fun game against Karpov, and Joe Doe can play against Jane Doe.
If the game of chess were broken, Kasparov wouldn't play it at all, he'd just publish a book titled "How White can force a checkmate in 41 moves" and move to the next game. The few remaining chess players would be separated into two groups: The winners who have read the book, and the losers who haven't.
[/edit]
As has been said before, They are here to test, and exploit, and in the long run, it means the serious exploits wont make it to us.
But dont expect 1.1 to be completey "exploit free" the JP rush wasnt even a tactic until a few months ago, and was an un-avoidable, and totally suprising tactic, or exploit. Thats what you have to remember, these guys are here to find them.
Allow me to rephrase his comment for people intent on not understanding.
Competitive play and "pub play" are not mutually exclusive. They are not 2 ends of a scale that a game must be positioned somewhere along. Where it was decided that a competitively-viable game must also be a poor pub game i have no idea, but some people seem to have gone into this thread automatically assuming this to be the case.
Any person who plays any game will gain experience at that game over a period of time. The longer a community plays a game, the more refined public play becomes. <b>All pub community play will tend towards clan play over an extended period.</b>
You can see this in NS 1.0x, you can see this in any mod you want to examine. And as the general knowledge of the pub scene increases, new players who join the scene are carried along with it. The strategies in use by clans today are the concentrated efforts of organised teams, attempting to find the most effective way of playing NS. What the clan scene does today, the pub scene will do in the future when they have caught up.
From TFs in the marine start, to 2 hive lockdowns, to jetpacks and early rushes, DMS, etc. The public scene has progressed from the release of NS to the present day, and the clan scene has always been several steps ahead because that is the nature of the clan scene.
Because of this, examining the play of clans at the highest level is the most sensible way of examining gameplay. These clans use the available tools in the most effective way they can, If the game is broken at this high level of play, then it is broken at pub play. Even if the pub community does not realise it yet.
You only need to look at 1.0x jetpacks for the ideal example of this. Given enough time the pub scene will catch up, and you now see JPs in full use on public servers. Had the top level of clan play been examined earlier, and gameplay adjusted with this in mind, JPs could have been addressed earlier, and the problems the public scene is running into now would not exist.
The very concept of trying to adjust gameplay by examining public serversis ridiculous. Pubs are a random collection of people with completely random levels of skill or experience, playing towards completely random game goals. That last part is important - game goals. The goal of NS is to kill all your opposition and prevent them from respawning. Yet on a public server, the goal each player is working towards is entirely personal and random. How do you account for the "balance issue" of half the alien team going lerk at an inappropriate time because they like the idea of being able to fly? Trying to balance a game under these conditions is absurd. You cannot gauge the skill of a team because its players are entirely random, so the result of a tactic succeeding or failing is completely meaningless and can be attributed to massive skill inbalances.
Examining gameplay requires a controlled environment. Public servers do not provide this. You adjust gameplay by examining competitve players in a controlled environment playing with the intention of winning. If the game balance works in this environment then it works in a pub environment as best as you can manage. After that, the task of making a game enjoyable for public play then becomes entirely seperate to the competitive gameplay tweaking - In otherwords, you add game elements that have no effect on competitive play but greatly help public play.
Help for new players, incentives for people to play towards the game goals, features which aid an unco-ordinated team work together. etc. etc. This is what is important to public server gameplay, not the 10 seconds extra research time on a certain item that may have a massive impact at the clan level. If you are a public server player and you're worried about the use of a 'veterans' testing group, this would be my advice to you:
Any adjustments made as a result of this type of testing will probably have ZERO effect on public play when 1.1 is launched. You would most likely consider these changes meaningless and not be impeeded by them in the slightest. Untill perhaps, several months down the road, when you play on a pub with an experienced group of players, and realise that a seemingly insignificant change managed to prevent a tactic that was seriously broken.
A typical pub game is not effected by this sort of tweaking, because in a typical pub game the balance issue of 'phase gates having 500 extra health' pales in significance to the balance issue of '2 guys wanting to jump around and wave their knife in the air instead of getting through the phase gate'.
I hate the clan scene. And yes I have been in a clan.
Don't get me wrong the games when they were good were really good but when games lasted less than 5 mins. They sucked. It was only when the clan games lasted longer than 5 mins and HA against Fades started to kick in that it got really good. But unless NS manages to get rid of those 5 min wins I don't think I'll ever return to the clan scene. Ever.
Then theres the other thing. Clans take NS way too seriously. It's all about the winning which can make games boring and caustic as hell when your teammate is out to win a moans every time you shoot him when he strafes into view. All I want to do is have a good game of NS without some person shouting at me. Which was the whole reason I turned to clanplay. But alas Clan Play wasn't what I was looking for. In fact, I've had much more fun pubbing with non clanners than those clan games.
So I don't think I will be joining a clan. It's too much hassle and really, it leached the fun out of NS.
So I don't think I will be joining a clan. It's too much hassle and really, it leached the fun out of NS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats not the clan scene's fault. You just joined a clan which didn't suit you. Try and find a less serious clan, perhaps with people you already know and you'll probably find you enjoy it more.
All I want to do is have a good game of NS without some person shouting at me.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There's a difference between being serious and being a jackass. Shouting at people for trivial reasons sounds more like the latter.
Thank you, TeoH, that's the eloquent version of what I wanted to say. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I really don't think so....
I must however admit, that i HATE those <5Min games... they take a lot of fun out of the game, but this is what the Playtesters and Veterans are working on right now: BALANCE.
If you want to see how balanced a game really is, you have to test it with players that have a very high skill, good understanding of the game and tactical understanding... that's clan players.
Pub players should have exactly the same POSSIBILITIES than clan players (so please please please do not make anything cost löess/more, do more/less damage or something in Public games!!!!!)... and because they most likely won't have the skill/experience (yet!!) to use them, public gaming will be lots of fun.
Pub Players will learn and adept (just like they did in the previous versions), it will take some time but it will happen.
So if we see the "clan level" on the top and "casual play" below it, non-clan players will get better with every game until the are close to the clan level.
The often talked about "gap" between clan and public play is a gap between different levels of skill and ORGANISATION.
Just imagine you and some friend playing soccer... you may do fine and you may have fun.
On the other side there are the professional soccer players.. they have a lot of training, organisation and tactics... but they play the SAME GAME with the SAME RULES.
With enough training you and your friend have the POSSIBILITY to become as good as the Pros... nobody would wan't to change the rules of soccer (or chess.. that was a very good example, Twex) so that children can learn it more easily.
Every game is about WINNING. Clans try to archive victory as EFFECTIVELY as possible.
If you think that this is not fun, than it's because you personaly don't LIKE it... that's not the fault of the clans.
Clan-Scrims are the MAX of what the NS-Gamplay can provide, so this MAX has to be tested and tweaked.
If the MAX is balanced, it's up to the players and their attitude if and how to use the POTENTIAL.
A games potential should not be lowered because a lot of players are not capable (yet!!) to fully use it...
-my2cent-
<b>Hyper, please don't try to get around the swear filter.</b>
Hyper
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/me looks at CS.
and look what happened. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
and look what happened. :0 <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What did happen?
Honestly, i'm not exactly a CS player here.
Since CS is a game with much less focus on RTS style strategy than NS, and much more focus on sitting in a corner and headshotting people with some form of sniper rifle derivative - I would expect pub play to tend towards clan play in the sense that pub players learn which weapons are most effective / which corners are coziest to sit in / how to aim at peoples heads.
Alternatively they could follow in the footsteps of the CS clans by all downloading OGC, either way supports my point.