Temp Gorging
Solus
Join Date: 2003-05-02 Member: 16015Members, NS1 Playtester
Join Date: 2003-05-02 Member: 16015Members, NS1 Playtester
<div class="IPBDescription">Why it is doing more harm then good.</div> Have you ever been a kharaa and have someone on your team say they'll Temporarily go Gorge? Have you done it yourself? (I have, until I figured how the resource system works) Well, understand why doing this can hurt your team more than it helps.
<b>Temporary Gorging Explained</b>
Temp Gorging is when a kharaa decides to change into a gorge (usually because he has full res) and build a resource point or some towers. Once the fellow kharaa has exerted (used up) it's res, it then changes back into a combat alien. This does have some advantages, but also comes with many disadvantages.
<b>Advantages</b>
<ul>
<li>Your team gains an extra resource point
<li>You are in a hard to reach spot (which is only accessible by vents)
</ul>
<b>Disadvantages</b>
<ul>
<li>You now require a share of the resource pool, making it slower for the dedicated gorge to gain res
<li>You have wasted 13 resource points changing into a gorge
<li>You will probably waste 4 more res changing back into a skulk
<li>Your team loses a fighter and has less of a defense/attack force
</ul>
<b>Overall</b>
Using this strategy is more than often harming your team because the dedicated gorge is now recieving res slower, even though the team possesses an extra resource point. Not only that but, up to 17 res was wasted during the process meaning that the gorge has lost gaining that much res. (Because by the time one skulk has 33 res, the others aren't far behind). If more than 1 person does the strategy, that is quite a lot of wasted res.
Then, because more of the team is using their share of res, the gorge is losing out on that too.
<b>Example</b>
There is a team of 8 kharaa. There are two dedicated gorges on the team. This means that in total, there are 14 shares all up. Each gorge gets 3 and each kharaa gets 1.
2 people decide to temp gorge. (13x2)+(4x2) = 34. That is a total of 34 res wasted, which could have gone to the other gorges into saving up for a hive or building more towers and res. Not only that, but those temp gorges are then taking more shares because gorges use 3 shares. So while gorged, the skulk will probably recieve 1-2 res every minute and the gorges will get 3-6 res a minute.
Once the temp gorgers change back to a skulk, there is still an after effect. Since they don't have full res now, they require their shares compared to the other skulks who probably have 33 and don't require shares.
This slows down the gorges a lot and makes it impossible to save up for a hive, so they will probably spend it on towers.
Even though those temp gorgers got 2 extra resource towers, it still puts the other gorges behind as it takes ages for 2 res towers to generate 34 res (amount lost by evolving).
<b>Conclusion</b>
Overall, I think Temp Gorging is bad for the team and will slow getting that second hive up.
Come post your piece of advice about "Temporary Gorging"!
<b>Temporary Gorging Explained</b>
Temp Gorging is when a kharaa decides to change into a gorge (usually because he has full res) and build a resource point or some towers. Once the fellow kharaa has exerted (used up) it's res, it then changes back into a combat alien. This does have some advantages, but also comes with many disadvantages.
<b>Advantages</b>
<ul>
<li>Your team gains an extra resource point
<li>You are in a hard to reach spot (which is only accessible by vents)
</ul>
<b>Disadvantages</b>
<ul>
<li>You now require a share of the resource pool, making it slower for the dedicated gorge to gain res
<li>You have wasted 13 resource points changing into a gorge
<li>You will probably waste 4 more res changing back into a skulk
<li>Your team loses a fighter and has less of a defense/attack force
</ul>
<b>Overall</b>
Using this strategy is more than often harming your team because the dedicated gorge is now recieving res slower, even though the team possesses an extra resource point. Not only that but, up to 17 res was wasted during the process meaning that the gorge has lost gaining that much res. (Because by the time one skulk has 33 res, the others aren't far behind). If more than 1 person does the strategy, that is quite a lot of wasted res.
Then, because more of the team is using their share of res, the gorge is losing out on that too.
<b>Example</b>
There is a team of 8 kharaa. There are two dedicated gorges on the team. This means that in total, there are 14 shares all up. Each gorge gets 3 and each kharaa gets 1.
2 people decide to temp gorge. (13x2)+(4x2) = 34. That is a total of 34 res wasted, which could have gone to the other gorges into saving up for a hive or building more towers and res. Not only that, but those temp gorges are then taking more shares because gorges use 3 shares. So while gorged, the skulk will probably recieve 1-2 res every minute and the gorges will get 3-6 res a minute.
Once the temp gorgers change back to a skulk, there is still an after effect. Since they don't have full res now, they require their shares compared to the other skulks who probably have 33 and don't require shares.
This slows down the gorges a lot and makes it impossible to save up for a hive, so they will probably spend it on towers.
Even though those temp gorgers got 2 extra resource towers, it still puts the other gorges behind as it takes ages for 2 res towers to generate 34 res (amount lost by evolving).
<b>Conclusion</b>
Overall, I think Temp Gorging is bad for the team and will slow getting that second hive up.
Come post your piece of advice about "Temporary Gorging"!
Comments
--Scythe--
The reason I'd like the link is, I seem to recall someone doing the math a while ago to prove exactly how much it hurts the team to "Temp Gorge" to put up a node. He went in with the preconceived notion that it'd be really bad, but the numbers showed that it only delayed the 2nd hive something along the lines of 15 to 30 seconds. I don't remember the numbers.
Since a 2nd Hive Rush is basically worthless in the face of a marine tech rush (marines can almost always tech faster than aliens... game imbalance) it's generally a better idea to secure MORE res nodes, to get a nice supply comming in, for the whole team. I'm seeing 2 gorges from hive 1 be fairly common on larger servers even... the 2nd hive can wait, defenses need to be in place, or a half-way decent marine team can walk all over you.
Temp Gorging may give the team a resource hit in the short term, but in the long term it does in fact pay off. And the thing is, aliens THRIVE in the long term. Marines don't, they have to hurry to win as early as possible. Thus, defenses, more income for everyone, and generally more coverage of the map early on will help the aliens to win. Because once the res starts flowing like milk and honey out of the promised land, we win.
Thanks. I forgot to add that. It may seem worthwhile Temp gorging, but why when another gorge can. All they need to do is say where it is.
1. Putting up a hive that the gorge can't safely get to.
2. Offsetting the negative impact of gorges with kooky strategies. If the gorge refuses to build RTs, then I will drop an RT whenever I max out on res.
Fortunately, the latter case doesn't happen that often (now that the "battle gorge" and "tower of lame" tactics have fallen out of style).
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're right if you're only looking at the short term. True, someone uses up 39 resources to gorge, place the res tower and evolve back to skulk. And those resources remove from the team's pool to refill. But over the long run it's very economicial to temp gorge to place a tower because you'll make up your losses in under a minute.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It all basically narrowed down to this. Okay? More RTs means goodness in the long run. It means faster fades, more lerks, more OCs to defend the hive with. Chances are if the gorge already put down 3 RTs and other aliens are maxed out the resources what you lost will refilled in under a minute so that temp gorge will be filled at 33 by the time hes finished.
So anyway, I will frikkin temp gorge if I want too. 'Nuff said.
I actually like the idea of having 2 gorges, depending on how good your skulks are and how big the teams are. The first gorge waits for one RT, put it up, and then the second one can immediately go gorge, and save up for DCs.
It seems everyone has some way to back up temp gorging. Then I guess limiting Temp gorging is a better solution.
The more people temp gorg'd (expecially at the same time) the less fighters there are to assist towers under attack or even hives. Each gorge then runs the risk of dying.
I am saying this because I have at one point had a team of 6 gorge and 2 skulks. 2 of the gorge died while building res (that's 70 res down the drain) and another res was destroyed because of lack of skulks.
If everyone approves of temp gorging, then limit the amount of gorge.
No matter what, there should <b>NEVER</b> be more than 50% of the team as gorge.
I disagree, it all depends on the situation of course, but as long as you're near full, gorging, building and then suiciding as soon as you've dumped the tower (do not spend time building) is healthy.
The most critical situation is before second hive goes up. once second hive goes up, res income is going to be up and down because people will keep going fade. Assuming everyone except the building gorge is at full res, the gorge is getting 3/3 res (3 parts divided on the 3 parts that aren't filled, ie the gorge)
If you gorge for an extended amount of time, you'll have to make sure the original gorge breaks even, and you being gorge will mean he only gets 3/6 res (3 parts divided on the 6 parts that aren't full, ie both gorges), so you have to, within a reasonably short time, double the amount of res towers you have to not suppress the res flow of the dedicated gorge.
However, given the same scenario, everyone is full except the gorge, and you change, plop the res and suicide or change to skulk, granted 17 res is lost, however, your res intake is only 1 part, which means the dedicated gorge is getting 3/4 of the res. Further, for the gorge to get the same amount of res, the built res node needs to represent an increase of of 4/3. In other words, as long as ((number of res nodes) * 4/3) - (number of res)) <= 1, temp gorging to add another node is good.
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1--> (1 * 4/3) - 1 = 0.3
(2 * 4/3) - 2 = 0.6
(3 * 4/3) - 3 = 1
(4 * 4/3) - 4 = 1.3
(5 * 4/3) - 5 = 1.6
(6 * 4/3) - 6 = 2<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<b>Overview:</b>
If you have 3 or less nodes, adding one more does not hamper the dedicated gorge. Adding a node at 4, possibly also 5 may be an acceptable loss. If you allready have 6+ towers, temp gorging will probably hurt the gorge more than it helps. I say probably, because this does not take into account the time form the hive is dropped until it starts producing resources, nor does it take into account when the skulk is back to full res. (Do also note that if there's two skulks that temp gorges, the res replacement will then be at 5/3, with 3 at 6/3, etc)
<!--c1--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->(1 * 5/3) - 1 = 0.6
(2 * 5/3) - 2 = 1.3
(3 * 5/3) - 3 = 2
(4 * 5/3) - 4 = 2.6<!--c2--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Running the table from above, you can see that the penalty by two skulks temp gorging doubles the res you need to replace, and that it yields the same conclusions as with one temp gorge.
<b>Conclusion:</b>
Having three or less towers, temp gorges will help, provided everyone but the dedicated gorge has full / near full res. At four towers, the penalty should be acceptable, but at five or more res nodes, it's a bad idea.
However, there are a few things this fails to take into consideration. Loss of attack from temp gorge, delayed res income due to res node having to build itself, and the bonus once the skulk is back to full again.
Ewww...do you know how long that takes? Everything seems good except for that part. It would be smarter to just build it faster and then have the team get the actual res point instead of it just being a waste of space for around 4 minutes.
being gorge in a 7 odd player game, when ur team gets max res and i was gorge, i was getting 7 res a tick <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
so i say temp gorging is bad.
The extra resources that come in <b>do</b> quickly make up the lost res for evolving. The extra resource towers should be accompanied by a few defence chambers otherwise the skulks won't be able to defend them and you end up forfeiting more resources than you set out to gain.
It's really about balancing out resource gain with resource spending to enable you to get upgrades as quickly as possible without compromising safety.
The reason I did not include that in the equation is that the math is relation based and works without having to know how much resources are generated per tick and such. It may very well be faster, but I can't take that into consideration without knowing more than just number of resource towers and how much each skulk/gorge gets. Abstraction is a typical phenomenon used in maths to make models more reasonable to work with. I'm not making any comments regarding which is the better method, I was just assuming that the skulk would constantly take 1 res per tick instead of three from the time he dropped the node.
If I did have all the information on the res system, I'd also be able to take when you'll have full res into consideration. I might do some timing tests tomorrow, I gather.
One cannot spend resources in the ready room, so the only "waste" that comes out of going gorge and going back is that is disrupts the overflow of ONE player. The problem occurs is when everyone wants to gorge gorge to drop a node, that can lead to some major disasters in res flow. If 1 or 2 players go temp gorge to drop a node, it helps more than it hurts.
If I temp gorge to build 2 d chambers early in the game, our skulks may have that extra boost needed to take back a key location.
If I temp gorge to build 2 O chambers in that sewer vent leading from Sewer Vestibule to the Sewer Hive in ns_caged, maybe our team has enough time to build the hive before marines get smart and go around to Pumping Station.
If I temp gorge to build 2 O chambers right behind that weldable grate to Ventilation Hive also on ns_caged, maybe we've saved ourselves some time also.
I never temp gorge to build an resource tower. If our strat is understood, our gorge can waddle around to get the res towers he needs and get them in good time.
I have done the math a couple times, and my conclusion is that the 2nd gorge makes almost no impact (less than a minute) on the theoretical time to 2nd hive. The difference though, is that marines don't follow math -- they walk through undefended areas, and mow down uncarapaced skulks, on the way to get res or lock down that 2nd hive.
My $0.02
wIPeOut
I love this model of resources, being a true capitalist. You gotta spend money to make money!
And most importantly, if <b>you</b> have the res point, then the marines <b>do not</b>. Slap down an OC and it's the difference between a rambo picking up an rt for the commander, and not.
The investement pays off big when 2 hives are up. It's the race to get 54 as soon as you can. During that time, you won't be cursing the temp gorge.
On Eclipse it's handy to temp gorge at power-sub junction and get the res with 3 or so OCs, cutting the jps off from CC.
The bigger the map, the more effective temp gorging is. I mean are you sure that your fatteh can get to point A, B, C and D without meeting a recon team? Doubtful. Have yourself two builders, and feel assured that you control at least 2 chunks of the map.
9 times out of 10 the investment works, and temp gorging is a standard thing in every game I play.
Also I usually just build the secret res in ns_caged from outside the wall and let it build itself (after 2nd hive is building). From what you guys say it'd be more economical to get a temp gorge to do it.
My personal opinion has swung over the past month or so. I require on my server that if anyone wants to gorge, they have to ask the current gorge first.
Previously I was of the opinion that there should be only one gorge, for the reasons stated in the original author's post. However, with the need to counter marines' early game dominance as early as possible, my opinion has changed.
I promote 3 skulks temp gorging to get DCs under or on top of the CURRENT hive (or 2 skulks maybe) once they reach 25 res (goes up to 14 while evolving). The main reason is time. On one hand, you slow down the overall res flow (BUT the gorge can be free to continue getting res nodes and not have to keep popping back to the hive, which at gorge pace is a major factor), on the other hand, your skulks will have level 3 carapace and start absolutely trouncing the marines. The earlier you can get 3 dcs, the more likely you are to win the game, because pack hunting to kill marine res and on to their base(s) becomes infinitely easier and more effective (forgive the hyperbole).
By getting level 3 carapace sooner, you may slow the second hive down, but it *allows you to slow the marine res down immensely by wasting their structures more efficiently*
The MAIN point I wanted to make, however, is flexibility. If the marines are sensible and are running all over the map owning it before you have carapace, you need cara *as soon as possible*. If they're less skilled/organised, you can survive longer without carapace and allowing the gorge the overflow res will help enormously in getting current and second hive up/secure that bit quicker.
BTW the maths shows 2 gorges can get the 2nd hive up (less than 1 minute) quicker than 1 gorge, depending on team size of course. My server isn't that big, so it's a better idea to have just one gorge.
As for people who go gorge to get fade/lerk sooner, they should be banned, shot, hung, drawn and quartered, and evermore labelled "llama of the higest order."
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
do kill right after you place the res..
Secondly, it's not necessary. A single gorge who knows what he's doing can cap enough RTs to get the hive and upgrades up relatively fast. While he's doing that, there should be as many skulks as possible available to defend these RTs, and to hamper the marines. The more skulks go temp gorge, the less they are able to skulk!
Firstly, on the subject of temping for res - think earlier. Alien expansion is much more limited than marine expansion because of the way resources work for both teams. In general, the only limit on the number of res a marine team can capture is the number of freely defendable nodes in the area. Make a marine start with 5 nodes in it and they'll cap them all right off the bat. The alien team however has a problem - the initial cost of a res tower is a big deal to a gorge. Not only do you need freely available and defendable nodes to build on, you are also limited by the res available to purchase res nodes.
An advantage of using a second gorge, or a temp gorge, is that it allows you to build more res towers than you would otherwise be able to afford. Having your primary gorge cap all defendable nodes is just not feasable, unless you are thinking much later into the game than you should be. Having a second gorge go for the res tower while you place DCs instead can be beneficial.
Now, regarding the loss of income from the 33/33 skulk - If that skulk places a resource tower that you would otherwise not be able to place, then your income after the res is placed will be higher both long term and short term, despite the skulk not being at its cap. Forget about situations where you have 6 res nodes, if you have 6 res nodes you probably won 10 minutes ago and are simply being silly.
There is however a dissadvantage to this temping that hasn't been mentioned, the res lost by the skulk is not usually a problem as they have nothing to spend it on. Untill you require lerks. Skulks reach the 33/33 mark somewhere around 6 minutes into the game, depending on how your res is going. Anytime from 7-8 minutes onwards you may require lerks to deal with jetpackers. Any skulk that temps will forfeit the ability to lerk for jetpack defense. Because of this, it is important to organise who will temp and who will save for possible lerkage. Having a large portion of your team temp gorge becomes a problem if you suddenly require lerks.
Temporary gorges after the 2nd hive is placed can also be helpful for defence - 1 skulk temping in the 2nd hive can place OCs there, while the primary gorge places OCs in the 1st hive. Using 2 gorges in this way allows you to defend your hives much faster than you would with a single gorge. Again, the only real problem with this is making sure you can afford lerks as needed. You will probably require 1/2 lerks as the 2nd hive is going up, and definately want at least 1 when the hive completes. Provided these lerks stay alive, with the 2nd hive up you have an iron clad defence and your res flow isnt a serious problem.
I tend to frown on 3 people temping for DCs, mainly because of the number of temp'ers and the fact that they usually all do it at the same time. The loss of 1 skulk to temp a res node is not a major loss, neither is the 13 res cost of the gorge. But having 3 people temp at once presents much more of a problem in terms of map control and lost res. I would rather see 1 person temping to drop 3 DCs, while the primary gorge caps res/whatever, than 3 skulks all gorging at once. Perhaps it is more viable with large team sizes but i'm mainly focused on 6v6 here. We have tried this before as a clan team and the impact it has on the 2nd hive is quite serious.