second law of thermodynamics: The energy available after a chemical reaction is less than that at the beginning of a reaction; energy conversions are not 100% efficient. In all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state
unified feild is theorized to have no limit, so the idea of harnessing it violates nothing, becuase if you tap into something that can not be exausted you will never use more of it that you began with <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What you are describing there is the first law of thermodynamics with a little bit of a bastardization of the second law mixed in. Here is a better description. <a href='http://www.entropylaw.com/entropy2ndlaw.html' target='_blank'>http://www.entropylaw.com/entropy2ndlaw.html</a>
As near as I could tell from the vague gestures and hints on that website it seems to be just another failed attempt to get around the laws of physics that will fade into anonymity. Their scheme is about as sensible as trying to get energy out of your refrigerator.
ummm.. no buddy the first law is that energy can not be created or destroyed, it meerly chages form. Secondly I never siad MATTER converted to energy, I said the unified feild (superstring) harnessed for power, the unified feild or superstring theory its the current theory in physics that attempts to answer how matter is bound (what exists between the atoms) its theorized that in order for a universe to sustain itself there must be a linking force between all matter, im not a theoretical physicist, but its a sound theory, it expanded on what Einstien began. And what the disclosure project people claim (mostly greer) is that technology already exists that would allow us to harness the energy of the UNIFIED FEILD , not the matter that exists within it.
<-- spelling not my strongsuit, in fact if 45% of what I type is spelled correctly i'm happy <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Russian is my primary language
<!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Apr 28 2003, 04:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Apr 28 2003, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ummm.. no buddy the first law is that energy can not be created or destroyed, it meerly chages form. Secondly I never siad MATTER converted to energy, <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Only for chemical reactions that is true. In a nuclear reaction a very small amount of matter is sometimes converted into energy. That is why a nuclear weapon is so incredibly powerful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I said the unified feild (superstring) harnessed for power, the unified feild or superstring theory its the current theory in physics that attempts to answer how matter is bound (what exists between the atoms) its theorized that in order for a universe to sustain itself there must be a linking force between all matter, im not a theoretical physicist, but its a sound theory, it expanded on what Einstien began. And what the disclosure project people claim (mostly greer) is that technology already exists that would allow us to harness the energy of the UNIFIED FEILD , not the matter that exists within it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about what groups atoms together? That would be the eletromagnetic force. What the string theory explains is the strong nuclear force gravitational force electromagnetic force and the weak nuclear force and how they relate. In a way you would still have a sort of nuclear reactor.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Apr 28 2003, 04:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Apr 28 2003, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ummm.. no buddy the first law is that energy can not be created or destroyed, it meerly chages form. Secondly I never siad MATTER converted to energy, I said the unified feild (superstring) harnessed for power, the unified feild or superstring theory its the current theory in physics that attempts to answer how matter is bound (what exists between the atoms) its theorized that in order for a universe to sustain itself there must be a linking force between all matter, im not a theoretical physicist, but its a sound theory, it expanded on what Einstien began. And what the disclosure project people claim (mostly greer) is that technology already exists that would allow us to harness the energy of the UNIFIED FEILD , not the matter that exists within it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The concept of a unified field theory is just that all physical forces can be described as variations of a single unifying force. Saying things like "harness the energy of the unified field" is equivalent to saying "harness the energy of electromagnetism, the weak force, the strong force, and gravity." I'm not doubting the validity of string theory, but nowhere within it does it include the possibility of "over 1" energy sources like the SEAS website talks about that violate energy conservation. Even if we assume that the "over 1" description of the efficiency is just a bit of rhetoric and has little to do with the way it supposedly works, entropy laws dictate that homogenous energy is impossible to extract. But don't take my word for it. The sites the article mentions are full of indignation that the US patent office blocks patents violating laws of thermodynamics. They violate current laws of thermodynamics by their own admission.
Here's an article on zero-point energy in Scientific American from 6 years ago. <a href='http://www.padrak.com/ine/ZPESCIAM.html' target='_blank'>http://www.padrak.com/ine/ZPESCIAM.html</a> Interesting although not terribly informative for our purposes. I challenge you, if you think this "miracle" of engineering is more than at best a result of mistaken calculations, at worst a deliberate hoax, find an independant study that tests their claims.
Hey Im not defending the views of the SEAS people, in fact I dont belive that technology like that could be kept from the public by anyone. But I do however belive that there will eventually be a way to harness the "force" of the unified field, and if not that then a way to harness the energy that exists within it. There are metaphysical theories about the expansion of the universe that imply the existance of a force that relays information instantaniously from one point in the universe to another. Sounds like sci-fi but there is a measure of validity to their statements. For instance if the earth is to be considdrerd a microcosim for the rest of the universe, then we can assume the universe will attempt to behave in a similar way. Since events on earth can cause global changes (a major climate change effects the rest of the planet) we can make the assumption that changes in the universe (collapse of a solar system like ours for instance) will be "felt" at every point. The only way for that to occur over the masive distances that exist is if the unified field, or some other force, that is capible of "transmitting" various "information" to all points of the universe instantaniously. So to sum it up, if the universe was a point you plotted in a vaccum, and it expanded infanetly in all directions possible (free particle theory, first particle that appeared had no referance point, therefore had infinate force, all other particles that appeared within it referanced from within to aquire their potential energy. (Khabala <sp> for u methaphysical nuts out there sorta describes this in the tree of life <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and that point was say made of copper for arguments sake, applying electricity to one side of the expanding copper ball, would be felt at all points of the copper ball, now lets assume that the balls basic requirement was to keep its shape symetrical, it would use the electricity to "know" if one side or point of the ball was expanding too fast or to slow. Anyway I got side tracked, and I could also bring up theories from cognative science that compare computer systems / networks to life systems and ecologies. Computers also use various checking methods to make sure things are always running correctly (like CRC checks in OS). Bah point is that if such a force exist in the universe, and some theories belive that it does (unified feild being one of them) then there should be a way to tap it, or harness it for our own use. I'm not hoping for miracles, I doubt I'll see it in my life time, but I belie it will eventually happen using science and technology.
monse: I also think that hydrogen will be the next major realistic fuel, but I dont think a major shift will happen until the military converts, I remember getting the information packet about hydrogen at my aunts Gas (petrol <sp> for you Europeans) Station 4 years ago or so, a company was offering to install the hydrogen storage tanks and delivery systems at her stations. But apperantly it would cost alot of money to convert the manufacturing infasructure to accomidate making cars that runon hydrogen for the mass market. Military contracts were always lucrative and made people change the way they operated their plants.
<!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Apr 29 2003, 03:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Apr 29 2003, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hey Im not defending the views of the SEAS people, in fact I dont belive that technology like that could be kept from the public by anyone. But I do however belive that there will eventually be a way to harness the "force" of the unified field, and if not that then a way to harness the energy that exists within it. There are metaphysical theories about the expansion of the universe that imply the existance of a force that relays information instantaniously from one point in the universe to another. Sounds like sci-fi but there is a measure of validity to their statements. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The stuff they have on that site is a load of ... crap. There is no way to get more than a efficiency coefficient of 1. At best they would be using some obscure quantum quirk to "steal" energy from somewhere and place it elsewhere - but there would be no "creation" of energy. String theory implies that there is a *potential* infinite energy in the space-time continuum, not that the energy actually exists. Since there are no physical manifestations of this energy, it's not possible for us to harness (on the other hand, if it were possible to produce such a manifestation, then we could at least use the energy). To me, it seems as if they're trying to sell you the Emperor's New Clothes.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
<!--QuoteBegin--GreyPaws+Apr 29 2003, 03:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GreyPaws @ Apr 29 2003, 03:09 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> There are metaphysical theories about the expansion of the . . . <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> "Physics, beware of metaphysics" -Sir Isaac Newton
Hey Im not defending the views of the SEAS people, in fact I dont belive that technology like that could be kept from the public by anyone. But I do however belive that there will eventually be a way to harness the "force" of the unified field, and if not that then a way to harness the energy that exists within it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you know what the unified field theory is? All it is what physist are trying to make a connection between the 4 other fields. (stron week nuclear force gravity and eletromagnatism)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are metaphysical theories about the expansion of the universe that imply the existance of a force that relays information instantaniously from one point in the universe to another. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean force not information.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only way for that to occur over the masive distances that exist is if the unified field, or some other force, that is capible of "transmitting" various "information" to all points of the universe instantaniously. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no unified field it is just the 4 other fields and how they interact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and that point was say made of copper for arguments sake, applying electricity to one side of the expanding copper ball, would be felt at all points of the copper ball, now lets assume that the balls basic requirement was to keep its shape symetrical, it would use the electricity to "know" if one side or point of the ball was expanding too fast or to slow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they wouldnt communicate they would force other sides to expand. This is not a unified field this is electromanatism.
In a chemical reaction (ie burning gas). You are making and breaking chemical bonds. Bonds are formed by electromagnetic force. What is in the interaction of nutrinos is the weaknuclear force. The weaknuclear force can be linked to the electromagnetic force at high energies to create the electroweak force. Then you can also can combind that with the strong nuclear force. This is the grand unification theory. The unification of gravity requires a quantum theory of gravity first. So im guessing in your thingy you would still be destroying matter for energy.
I cant really further this discussion. Like I mentioned up top Im not a theoretical physicist, but the statement saying "the unified feild doesnt exist, its just the relationship betweeen other forces" seems to contradict itself, if there is a relationship that exist between the forces you mentioned, then who is to say that said relationship is not in itself a force or feild? My studies didnt include physics, most of what I know came from referances in other things I read reguarding free particles and their relationships to metaphysical systems. "the Ain, Ain Soph, and Ain Soph Aur" (the vaccum, or "great nothingness" before the universe was created and the realtionship of those forces to "Kether" (the free particle). So alot of the things you dismiss as "realtionships between forces" I look into and see past. I'm not saying my viewpoint is correct or yours is incorrect, but I am saying however that many things people thought impossible, or non existant were proven true in later years. Furthermore its easy to simply dismiss things you disagree with, and say "Math Ownz You!" but math could never exist unless people put faith in the numbers. I cant remember which it was but ither math contradicts itself when attempting to solve 0º (zero to the power of zero) or irrational numbers.
::leaves a pile of steaming fuel on Burrs desktop:: <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Comments
second law of thermodynamics: The energy available after a chemical reaction is less than that at the beginning of a reaction; energy conversions are not 100% efficient. In all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state
unified feild is theorized to have no limit, so the idea of harnessing it violates nothing, becuase if you tap into something that can not be exausted you will never use more of it that you began with <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What you are describing there is the first law of thermodynamics with a little bit of a bastardization of the second law mixed in. Here is a better description. <a href='http://www.entropylaw.com/entropy2ndlaw.html' target='_blank'>http://www.entropylaw.com/entropy2ndlaw.html</a>
As near as I could tell from the vague gestures and hints on that website it seems to be just another failed attempt to get around the laws of physics that will fade into anonymity. Their scheme is about as sensible as trying to get energy out of your refrigerator.
Only for chemical reactions that is true. In a nuclear reaction a very small amount of matter is sometimes converted into energy. That is why a nuclear weapon is so incredibly powerful.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I said the unified feild (superstring) harnessed for power, the unified feild or superstring theory its the current theory in physics that attempts to answer how matter is bound (what exists between the atoms) its theorized that in order for a universe to sustain itself there must be a linking force between all matter, im not a theoretical physicist, but its a sound theory, it expanded on what Einstien began. And what the disclosure project people claim (mostly greer) is that technology already exists that would allow us to harness the energy of the UNIFIED FEILD , not the matter that exists within it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about what groups atoms together? That would be the eletromagnetic force. What the string theory explains is the strong nuclear force gravitational force electromagnetic force and the weak nuclear force and how they relate. In a way you would still have a sort of nuclear reactor.
The concept of a unified field theory is just that all physical forces can be described as variations of a single unifying force. Saying things like "harness the energy of the unified field" is equivalent to saying "harness the energy of electromagnetism, the weak force, the strong force, and gravity." I'm not doubting the validity of string theory, but nowhere within it does it include the possibility of "over 1" energy sources like the SEAS website talks about that violate energy conservation. Even if we assume that the "over 1" description of the efficiency is just a bit of rhetoric and has little to do with the way it supposedly works, entropy laws dictate that homogenous energy is impossible to extract. But don't take my word for it. The sites the article mentions are full of indignation that the US patent office blocks patents violating laws of thermodynamics. They violate current laws of thermodynamics by their own admission.
Here's an article on zero-point energy in Scientific American from 6 years ago. <a href='http://www.padrak.com/ine/ZPESCIAM.html' target='_blank'>http://www.padrak.com/ine/ZPESCIAM.html</a> Interesting although not terribly informative for our purposes. I challenge you, if you think this "miracle" of engineering is more than at best a result of mistaken calculations, at worst a deliberate hoax, find an independant study that tests their claims.
Just so people can see the party line.
Hey Im not defending the views of the SEAS people, in fact I dont belive that technology like that could be kept from the public by anyone. But I do however belive that there will eventually be a way to harness the "force" of the unified field, and if not that then a way to harness the energy that exists within it. There are metaphysical theories about the expansion of the universe that imply the existance of a force that relays information instantaniously from one point in the universe to another. Sounds like sci-fi but there is a measure of validity to their statements. For instance if the earth is to be considdrerd a microcosim for the rest of the universe, then we can assume the universe will attempt to behave in a similar way. Since events on earth can cause global changes (a major climate change effects the rest of the planet) we can make the assumption that changes in the universe (collapse of a solar system like ours for instance) will be "felt" at every point. The only way for that to occur over the masive distances that exist is if the unified field, or some other force, that is capible of "transmitting" various "information" to all points of the universe instantaniously. So to sum it up, if the universe was a point you plotted in a vaccum, and it expanded infanetly in all directions possible (free particle theory, first particle that appeared had no referance point, therefore had infinate force, all other particles that appeared within it referanced from within to aquire their potential energy. (Khabala <sp> for u methaphysical nuts out there sorta describes this in the tree of life <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> ) and that point was say made of copper for arguments sake, applying electricity to one side of the expanding copper ball, would be felt at all points of the copper ball, now lets assume that the balls basic requirement was to keep its shape symetrical, it would use the electricity to "know" if one side or point of the ball was expanding too fast or to slow. Anyway I got side tracked, and I could also bring up theories from cognative science that compare computer systems / networks to life systems and ecologies. Computers also use various checking methods to make sure things are always running correctly (like CRC checks in OS). Bah point is that if such a force exist in the universe, and some theories belive that it does (unified feild being one of them) then there should be a way to tap it, or harness it for our own use. I'm not hoping for miracles, I doubt I'll see it in my life time, but I belie it will eventually happen using science and technology.
monse: I also think that hydrogen will be the next major realistic fuel, but I dont think a major shift will happen until the military converts, I remember getting the information packet about hydrogen at my aunts Gas (petrol <sp> for you Europeans) Station 4 years ago or so, a company was offering to install the hydrogen storage tanks and delivery systems at her stations. But apperantly it would cost alot of money to convert the manufacturing infasructure to accomidate making cars that runon hydrogen for the mass market. Military contracts were always lucrative and made people change the way they operated their plants.
The stuff they have on that site is a load of ... crap. There is no way to get more than a efficiency coefficient of 1. At best they would be using some obscure quantum quirk to "steal" energy from somewhere and place it elsewhere - but there would be no "creation" of energy. String theory implies that there is a *potential* infinite energy in the space-time continuum, not that the energy actually exists. Since there are no physical manifestations of this energy, it's not possible for us to harness (on the other hand, if it were possible to produce such a manifestation, then we could at least use the energy). To me, it seems as if they're trying to sell you the Emperor's New Clothes.
"Physics, beware of metaphysics" -Sir Isaac Newton
Hey Im not defending the views of the SEAS people, in fact I dont belive that technology like that could be kept from the public by anyone. But I do however belive that there will eventually be a way to harness the "force" of the unified field, and if not that then a way to harness the energy that exists within it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you know what the unified field theory is? All it is what physist are trying to make a connection between the 4 other fields. (stron week nuclear force gravity and eletromagnatism)
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->There are metaphysical theories about the expansion of the universe that imply the existance of a force that relays information instantaniously from one point in the universe to another. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You mean force not information.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only way for that to occur over the masive distances that exist is if the unified field, or some other force, that is capible of "transmitting" various "information" to all points of the universe instantaniously. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There is no unified field it is just the 4 other fields and how they interact.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and that point was say made of copper for arguments sake, applying electricity to one side of the expanding copper ball, would be felt at all points of the copper ball, now lets assume that the balls basic requirement was to keep its shape symetrical, it would use the electricity to "know" if one side or point of the ball was expanding too fast or to slow. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No they wouldnt communicate they would force other sides to expand. This is not a unified field this is electromanatism.
In a chemical reaction (ie burning gas). You are making and breaking chemical bonds. Bonds are formed by electromagnetic force. What is in the interaction of nutrinos is the weaknuclear force. The weaknuclear force can be linked to the electromagnetic force at high energies to create the electroweak force. Then you can also can combind that with the strong nuclear force. This is the grand unification theory. The unification of gravity requires a quantum theory of gravity first. So im guessing in your thingy you would still be destroying matter for energy.