All of this is well and good, and I like ff in other team-based games (ahem i won't mention another poopular half-life mod that is evil and its name cannot be used in the same post as one that talks about ns), but aren't the marine hitboxes kind of inaccurate? I think you can shoot your teammate even if you aim CLEAR over his shoulder and to the side of his head with your pistol to show it isn't the spread. If you've ever tried to hit an alien with a marine between you, you'll know what I mean. And forget shooting between his legs, ehhe.
This is why ff isn't too great of an idea until the marine hitboxes are better, which will happen with same race games if not earlier. Unless of course I am hallucinating and the hitboxes fix themselves with ff on. Or maybe it isn't as bad as I think. Or maybe they're supposed to be better in 1.1. I've never played with ff on in ns (tourney mode) so I wouldn't know. I just know I see all kinds of sparks if I shoot my gun aiming next to another marine. Anyone have insight on this?
CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
FF with public servers filled with random players is asking for instant marine death in my expirience. We are talking close quarters battle to something more tight in then even CS. With NS's narrow twisting halls and encosed vents, rooms it would be a slaughter. Besides, in keeping with the story, nano technology has eliminated FF.
NarfwakJoin Date: 2002-11-02Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--abtm+Apr 18 2003, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (abtm @ Apr 18 2003, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I think that friendlyfire enhances the very core concept behind TOURNAMENT MODE. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> w3rd.
FF and pubbing just doesn't work. Remember v1.0? Remember how you could kill any friendly structure? Remember how often that happened? Remember how much it <i>destroyed</i> gameplay?
I feel like a man alone in a room full of Alzheimer’s patients.
I grant there are some seriously valid reasons why some people would not want to play on FF pubs. But, why not let it be a server side option so the server owners can decide? And then, if you don't wanna play FF you can play on a non-FF server and the people who want to play FF can play on the FF server. I mean, if you think FF will be utterly horrible, just avoid FF servers. Personally, I find FF fun (yes I have played FF tourney mood on the server I frequent). I don't see why there's any reason to advocate not having the option altogether. Its not like they're going to make the game FF only. Heck CS has the FF option and the vast majority of servers leave it off, which is likely what will happen in NS also, so I really don't see what the problem with the option is.
Lets remember that server owners are in one way or another paying actual hard earned money to keep this mod running. If they have fewer options available to them that then want, what is the likelyhood of getting a following as big as CS? Options = teh win!!!!111
I vote yes, because I have admin on one of the only servers I play on. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I want to play with FF on on my server, or at least to try it. If you people can't trust admins to run their servers properly, I suggest you go elsewhere and find places that are well run.
the argument that you'll get people just shooting teammates and that will ruin the game... Hmm ok yeah maybe on a server that's just put up and left well alone maybe, but do you WANT to play on a place like that? there's nothing stopping people on those servers jumping in the comm chair and wasting res, going gorge and wasting res, and generally making the average gamer's life a misery.
HOWEVER, on a decent server, people like that are being and have been banned extremely rapidly, because believe it or not, us server owners actually DO care!
To assume that we won't ban troublemakers is a poor assumption.
I don't know if any of you are aware. But i know that Tk'n in TFC got out of hand on one of our server's so we reversed it. if "joeidiot" decides he is goin to go over and knife the infantry portal. His first swing is met with a drop in HIS health not the objects. Same for the fact of him attacking other marines. It injures the player or players doin the damage not the player that would normally be receiving the damage! Anyway my 2 cents! lata Proph!
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Problem, 'Proph'. What happens when you get a lamer who jumps out in front of his teammate as he's about to start firing? Stands in front of said teammate constantly so he's helpless and they both die?
FF should be a cvar. See some of my other posts for a 'better' method of handling irresponsible TK/TWers.
I would definitely enjoy having FF set as a server variable. There are some few problems with it, but if server admins are regularly on this will alleviate most of the purposeful team killing. If admins aren't often on the server FF can be set to off.
I'd enjoy this for a few reasons. One, my teammates on the marine team would not constantly run directly in front of me and start shooting the skulk running at us. This often indirectly causes the death of himself because I can't give him backup, and sometimes kills me since the skulk(s) were only being shot by the guy in front of me. FF would make them more cautious about this, to the benefit of everyone.
I think skulks would also have a bit more of their advantage in close combat. While it is annoying to be bitten by a friendly skulk in a close melee, marines have it worse since their attacks have more range on them.
I would highly recommend an option for half damage to teammates so that people could get accustomed to the idea, or just as a compromise for servers that want a compromise for their players.
Also: Catnap - where is your server located? I play there somewhat regularly, and I got a 22 ping on there last night...assuming that's your server.
Yea make it optional but personally i wouldnt want to see FF on public servers.
I hate it in matches anyway.......... so tempting to bite my hive down <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
the only time i could see FF being useful is in a practice... in that case ...turn on tourny mode
someone said this... <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Today I had Tournament Mode on and I like the Friendly Fire but with Tournament Mode both teams has to say ready inorder to start the game and the map won't change in Tournament Mode and playing a second game on the same map sometimes doesn't work SO GOD (Flayra) can you please make 1.1 have friendly fire without haveing Tournament Mode?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sounds like some minor bugs in tourny mode
but please please please leave Flayra and Co. alone to a) Fix bugs b) Add new COOL features c) finish 1.1
<!--QuoteBegin--kingmob+Apr 23 2003, 06:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kingmob @ Apr 23 2003, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Today I had Tournament Mode on and I like the Friendly Fire but with Tournament Mode both teams has to say ready inorder to start the game and the map won't change in Tournament Mode and playing a second game on the same map sometimes doesn't work SO GOD (Flayra) can you please make 1.1 have friendly fire without haveing Tournament Mode?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sounds like some minor bugs in tourny mode <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> The saying ready is in ther for a reason, so that both teams get an even start. The map will change if someone changes it, but then you have to put tournament mode on again, so basically you need a admin. And the next round has always workes with me, all you have to do is say the ready all over and the it will remove the last rounds buildings.
So yeah if you want ff in a pub server it would need a option, but I vote no faor any kind of ff on any public server.
<!--QuoteBegin--Roobubba+Apr 23 2003, 07:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Roobubba @ Apr 23 2003, 07:07 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I want to play with FF on on my server, or at least to try it. If you people can't trust admins to run their servers properly, I suggest you go elsewhere and find places that are well run. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Since Roo's is one of the two servers I play on, i'd be happy to play with FF on. It would increase enjoyment rather than drop it, so long as it was on a well run server.
Its simple. If a person does not like friendly fire on a server, they go to a different server that does not have it. If person likes friendly fire on a server, they find one that has it. The easy comparison would be Counter-Strike..the OPTION is available, but you don't see a whole lot. I mean...go over a random listing of CS servers, and check the ratio of FF to non-FF. I'de bet my empty bottle of Pepsi that there are more without it than with, but those who want the OPTION to have it can suit themselves.
There really is nothing to argue about here. =) Unless you are talking about siege cannons, which will blow you apart in a second, marine lmg FF really doesn't do a lot of damage, unless you are holding completely still for some weird reason and take a whole clip or two. Common sense > silly FF abusers
Quite frankly, FF doens't even add anything to tourney mode. It would add that nice extra dynamic to the game, but there are a few things that really make it fail. If they are fixed (which would be really rough), FF might actually bring about some enjoyable experiances.
1) Hitboxes and questionable melee hit areas - melee attacks will slaughter your teammates because they hit things that you wouldn't expect, and you have no real way of telling. The way the game decides whether/what you hit is not intuitive, as you can have a marine right in front of you, a res right next to you on the side, and a bite will often hit the res! Now replace res with teammate. Ouch.
2) You can be killed by friendly turrets/sieges/oc's. This really sucks. Not only are the buildings pretty strong, they're also dumb as rocks. They don't really care if you're inbetween them and their target, they'll go ahead and shoot you anyways. I'd recommend just turning off building FF.
3) Player bad habits. I'm not even talking about people who try to TK on purpose, but rather the people who don't bother to think. For instance, it's a common practice to bite the gorge in the bum to get his attention for a heal. With FF, you very likely just killed your gorge, and screwed your team good. That level of punishment is rediculous for being absent minded. If we made certain things immune to FF, it would all work out.
4) Friendly fire and the hive: biting/shooting/whatever the hive throws everyone into a panic, because the kharaa team gets the lovely "Our hive is under attack!" message. A few points of damage to a hive can destroy any hopes of teamwork, since everyone just dropped what they were doing in an effort to save the hive.
5) Lag. You can get lag TK's as well, and this is a true bother (both for marines and kharaa). There are lots of ways for this to happen, but I'll use this example: a skulk rushes into the room with 2 marines, gets 2 bites off on a guy, and dies. Having level 1 armor, the marine now has like 12 health. The marine who wasn't being bitten lags just a bit, and fires 3-4 more bullets than he should have to kill the skulk. They hit his buddy. His buddy dies.
6) Wild fury of combat! Being an onos makes it pretty easy to get in the mindset that you can mow down everything in your path. When in such a mindset, it's also a bit challenging to determine if there are friendlies in that path. Gues who else gets mowed over.
7) Spam. Acid, grenades, whatever. With FF on, now it not only traps the enemy in their base, it traps you out! Stalemates, yay.
I wouldn't play on a server that had FF enabled until these get fixed. Match play is horrible enough, I don't need it to hurt my pub experiance too.
EDIT: adding comparison to FF in CS.
CS does not have (considerable) melee combat. It does not have splash damage except for HE grenades, and those are in short supply during a match and are thus (hopefully) used carefully and sparingly.
<i>Please</i> do not try to justify FF in NS by what goes on in CS. They are totally different animals.
I don't see what the big deal is. Give the choice to the server admin. If ppl want to play FF on the server, they will. If they don't they will play somewhere else. So to come out and plainly say no, is just stupid.
All justifiable arguments taboo, some will be invalid in 1.1 as you said, but that really isn't the point.
No matter the flaws with the current state of tourny FF, people still like it. This post would not even exist if there weren't a large portion of people who wanted it made available. Some have showed a desire to have it, and some have not. They will sort themselves out. There is no reason to completely bar off an option for the multitude of players that want it just because the other half doesn't. Thats just silly. =)
Its an OPTION, and not every server in the world will have FF. In fact, most likely only a minority will...so it will be real simple for you to check if a server has FF, and move along. Its a win/win situation.
Comments
This is why ff isn't too great of an idea until the marine hitboxes are better, which will happen with same race games if not earlier. Unless of course I am hallucinating and the hitboxes fix themselves with ff on. Or maybe it isn't as bad as I think. Or maybe they're supposed to be better in 1.1. I've never played with ff on in ns (tourney mode) so I wouldn't know. I just know I see all kinds of sparks if I shoot my gun aiming next to another marine. Anyone have insight on this?
w3rd.
FF and pubbing just doesn't work. Remember v1.0? Remember how you could kill any friendly structure? Remember how often that happened? Remember how much it <i>destroyed</i> gameplay?
I feel like a man alone in a room full of Alzheimer’s patients.
Conditions:
-<b>HYPER-Strict</b> FF Enforcement
-ForgiveTK/PunishTK Option
-3 TKs=Kick/3 Kicks=Ban
-Friendly Damage Warning (ie. 'Someguy' hurt a teammate!)
Lets remember that server owners are in one way or another paying actual hard earned money to keep this mod running. If they have fewer options available to them that then want, what is the likelyhood of getting a following as big as CS? Options = teh win!!!!111
I want to play with FF on on my server, or at least to try it. If you people can't trust admins to run their servers properly, I suggest you go elsewhere and find places that are well run.
the argument that you'll get people just shooting teammates and that will ruin the game... Hmm ok yeah maybe on a server that's just put up and left well alone maybe, but do you WANT to play on a place like that? there's nothing stopping people on those servers jumping in the comm chair and wasting res, going gorge and wasting res, and generally making the average gamer's life a misery.
HOWEVER, on a decent server, people like that are being and have been banned extremely rapidly, because believe it or not, us server owners actually DO care!
To assume that we won't ban troublemakers is a poor assumption.
Give us the choice!!!
Roo
FF should be a cvar. See some of my other posts for a 'better' method of handling irresponsible TK/TWers.
"admin_ban" / "banid 0.0"
I'd enjoy this for a few reasons. One, my teammates on the marine team would not constantly run directly in front of me and start shooting the skulk running at us. This often indirectly causes the death of himself because I can't give him backup, and sometimes kills me since the skulk(s) were only being shot by the guy in front of me. FF would make them more cautious about this, to the benefit of everyone.
I think skulks would also have a bit more of their advantage in close combat. While it is annoying to be bitten by a friendly skulk in a close melee, marines have it worse since their attacks have more range on them.
I would highly recommend an option for half damage to teammates so that people could get accustomed to the idea, or just as a compromise for servers that want a compromise for their players.
Also: Catnap - where is your server located? I play there somewhat regularly, and I got a 22 ping on there last night...assuming that's your server.
I hate it in matches anyway.......... so tempting to bite my hive down <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
vote = no
the only time i could see FF being useful is in a practice...
in that case ...turn on tourny mode
someone said this...
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Today I had Tournament Mode on and I like the Friendly Fire but with Tournament Mode both teams has to say ready inorder to start the game and the map won't change in Tournament Mode and playing a second game on the same map sometimes doesn't work
SO GOD (Flayra) can you please make 1.1 have friendly fire without haveing Tournament Mode?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sounds like some minor bugs in tourny mode
but please please please leave Flayra and Co. alone to
a) Fix bugs
b) Add new COOL features
c) finish 1.1
Amen
SO GOD (Flayra) can you please make 1.1 have friendly fire without haveing Tournament Mode?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
sounds like some minor bugs in tourny mode <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The saying ready is in ther for a reason, so that both teams get an even start.
The map will change if someone changes it, but then you have to put tournament mode on again, so basically you need a admin.
And the next round has always workes with me, all you have to do is say the ready all over and the it will remove the last rounds buildings.
So yeah if you want ff in a pub server it would need a option, but I vote no faor any kind of ff on any public server.
And if it's a server-side option.
Since Roo's is one of the two servers I play on, i'd be happy to play with FF on. It would increase enjoyment rather than drop it, so long as it was on a well run server.
Its simple. If a person does not like friendly fire on a server, they go to a different server that does not have it. If person likes friendly fire on a server, they find one that has it. The easy comparison would be Counter-Strike..the OPTION is available, but you don't see a whole lot. I mean...go over a random listing of CS servers, and check the ratio of FF to non-FF. I'de bet my empty bottle of Pepsi that there are more without it than with, but those who want the OPTION to have it can suit themselves.
There really is nothing to argue about here. =) Unless you are talking about siege cannons, which will blow you apart in a second, marine lmg FF really doesn't do a lot of damage, unless you are holding completely still for some weird reason and take a whole clip or two. Common sense > silly FF abusers
1) Hitboxes and questionable melee hit areas - melee attacks will slaughter your teammates because they hit things that you wouldn't expect, and you have no real way of telling. The way the game decides whether/what you hit is not intuitive, as you can have a marine right in front of you, a res right next to you on the side, and a bite will often hit the res! Now replace res with teammate. Ouch.
2) You can be killed by friendly turrets/sieges/oc's. This really sucks. Not only are the buildings pretty strong, they're also dumb as rocks. They don't really care if you're inbetween them and their target, they'll go ahead and shoot you anyways. I'd recommend just turning off building FF.
3) Player bad habits. I'm not even talking about people who try to TK on purpose, but rather the people who don't bother to think. For instance, it's a common practice to bite the gorge in the bum to get his attention for a heal. With FF, you very likely just killed your gorge, and screwed your team good. That level of punishment is rediculous for being absent minded. If we made certain things immune to FF, it would all work out.
4) Friendly fire and the hive: biting/shooting/whatever the hive throws everyone into a panic, because the kharaa team gets the lovely "Our hive is under attack!" message. A few points of damage to a hive can destroy any hopes of teamwork, since everyone just dropped what they were doing in an effort to save the hive.
5) Lag. You can get lag TK's as well, and this is a true bother (both for marines and kharaa). There are lots of ways for this to happen, but I'll use this example: a skulk rushes into the room with 2 marines, gets 2 bites off on a guy, and dies. Having level 1 armor, the marine now has like 12 health. The marine who wasn't being bitten lags just a bit, and fires 3-4 more bullets than he should have to kill the skulk. They hit his buddy. His buddy dies.
6) Wild fury of combat! Being an onos makes it pretty easy to get in the mindset that you can mow down everything in your path. When in such a mindset, it's also a bit challenging to determine if there are friendlies in that path. Gues who else gets mowed over.
7) Spam. Acid, grenades, whatever. With FF on, now it not only traps the enemy in their base, it traps you out! Stalemates, yay.
I wouldn't play on a server that had FF enabled until these get fixed. Match play is horrible enough, I don't need it to hurt my pub experiance too.
EDIT: adding comparison to FF in CS.
CS does not have (considerable) melee combat. It does not have splash damage except for HE grenades, and those are in short supply during a match and are thus (hopefully) used carefully and sparingly.
<i>Please</i> do not try to justify FF in NS by what goes on in CS. They are totally different animals.
YES ---> Serverside option set to off
No matter the flaws with the current state of tourny FF, people still like it. This post would not even exist if there weren't a large portion of people who wanted it made available. Some have showed a desire to have it, and some have not. They will sort themselves out. There is no reason to completely bar off an option for the multitude of players that want it just because the other half doesn't. Thats just silly. =)
Its an OPTION, and not every server in the world will have FF. In fact, most likely only a minority will...so it will be real simple for you to check if a server has FF, and move along. Its a win/win situation.