How Do You Expand?
Chopper_Dave1
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2353Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Just curious.</div> In the very early game, I'll shun the use of both turret factories and phase gates and will rather just drop an armory. Once the armory is built, I'll drop a few packs of mines which is usually more than enough to provide a temporary defense for the area and any nearby resource nodes. After securing enough resource nodes, I'll usually set up a phase gate chain, finally followed by turret factories in any area with repeated alien aggression.
When I expand in the late game (i.e. expanding for an assault on a hive), I usually drop a phase gate, then a turret factory and a turret or two, upgrade, then finally drop an armory for ammo and welders.
I was curious to see what all your expansion build orders were usually like, how many you have experimented with, and which you think are best. I know Stoneburg always drops a turret factories first, just because he's such a non-conformist <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. What about everyone else?
When I expand in the late game (i.e. expanding for an assault on a hive), I usually drop a phase gate, then a turret factory and a turret or two, upgrade, then finally drop an armory for ammo and welders.
I was curious to see what all your expansion build orders were usually like, how many you have experimented with, and which you think are best. I know Stoneburg always drops a turret factories first, just because he's such a non-conformist <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->. What about everyone else?
Comments
An insanely turreted spawn is the best offense I say!
An insanely turreted spawn is the best offense I say! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Heh, and after you have managed to finish your second TF, there comes an onos rush in your base. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Usually on the servers i play, if com drops a TF and few sentry in the base when game starts two things happens:
1. Eject
2. F4
I mean farming your base is just a waste of money and time. If you put few mines on the floor around buildings and then order 1-3 marines (depending the size of the server) to stay in the base to defend, it is good enough. No need for sentrys. You can spend that cash for tech and other buildings.
I usually secure the base with couple mine packs and then order ppl to move in the double res points or in a hive room and of course i make sure that someone stays in the base. If we are attacking to a hive or aliens keep rushing one of our outposts, i usually send one marine away from the battle to capture few res nodes. I use sentrys when locking a hive or double res point. After we have some tech and weapon/armor upgrades, i might build TF in base and some sentrys.
TF, then 8-10 Turrets, RT, then a second TF in case the first one gets killed, then you start expanding. Remember to put a TF and at least 4-5 turrets at every node, or the aliens will destroy it.
Research HA (never jetpacks) and Advanced Armory and move out to second hive where (if the gorge hunter did his job) they should just be building up, HA come rolling in, repeat what you did at the first hive, and you are pretty much done.
TF, then 8-10 Turrets, RT, then a second TF in case the first one gets killed, then you start expanding. Remember to put a TF and at least 4-5 turrets at every node, or the aliens will destroy it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if you have...lets say 10 sentys in your base, they doesn't stop two onos.
Have you ever won a game with that strategy?
And omg, RT and 4-5 sentry !!!
If you build RT it will cost 22rp
If you build TF (20) + RT (22) + 5 sentry (95) = 137 rp <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I mean so what if they destroy couple of your undefended RT's? You can always build a new one, well actually you can build a new RT 6 times and it will still be cheaper than defending one with sentrys.
And 4-5 sentrys are really easy to destroy. Two skulks can take that out after few rush and when aliens get fades, those sentrys are even more useless.
Alright, lets say you secure your base with 10 sentrys and then two res nodes with 8 sentrys. You have spended a LOT of money and time. In that point aliens probably will have two hives and they start to save for fades. How you are going to fight againts those fades without any weapon upgrades, HMG, jp/HA ??....eh...with your sentrys? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
In general, if you don't expand and capture those resource nodes the aliens will be growing too much faster than you, and you will lose. Also, to the person who says mass mines are the answer to fades...you like blowing up marines as a fade, I take it?
I expand using man power; then build structures behind that screen. When were ready, or the situation is right; we move out. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
That's how I expand, I'd love to be able to drop an armory and rely on marines+mines, but I just can't. If a location doesn't have a phase and some turrets, we don't have it. Actually, I can see a situation where if I have 2-3 trusted marines in a location I could just drop an armory to let the resupply and drop mines. I just haven't seen that in a game I've commed, though I have had situations where it is me and another good marine in a loc where that would have worked. But depending on the comm we either run out of ammo and die, get turrets, or get phase+turrets instead.
The problem is knowing when to use turrets. Too early is just stupid, marines have the advantage then. Also is the lack of marine response sometimes.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How you are going to fight againts those fades without any weapon upgrades, HMG, jp/HA ??....eh...with your sentrys? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is such a typical response. Learn the resource model please. More RTs equals more cash. You can JP/HMG rush on a single RT... if you have 4 what does that mean?
Hehe, you guys weren't really taking Stoneburg seriously, were you?
I know that. I just ment, that if you spend all of your moneys for turrets and start to upgrade your armory and research jp from prototype lab, when aliens start to save money for fades, you are skrewed. In that point, aliens probably has most of the res nodes on the map and gorges can build lots of DC's under the hive, which make destroying it much harder. And of course, gorges has webs in that point too.
I haven't seen resently any succesfull jp/hmg rush when aliens have two hives and some web and DC's in hive areas, except in ns_nancy, where you can go next to any hive trought vents.
And when they got fades, it means that you will lose your RT outposts really fast.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I really do hope you guys realize that Stoneburg is being sarcastic. He DOES win more games than I do as commander (if only because he plays NS a heckofa lot more than I do ). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hmmm... how the heck i can know is he just joking or not. I haven't ever seen when he commands, well actually i haven't ever even played with him, so i can't know how good/bad commander he is. And about that turret farming your base in early game.... i see it happening way too often.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
too funny stoneburg <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
but seriously.. the best D is a tfac with about 3 sieges, that'll really protect your base. and WASTE ONII when they charge in. it'll take FOREVER for aliens to to try and get in, by that time you can get shotties and pwn everything!!!!
(sorry, couldn't resist)
I don't really have a "one way" to do it. I have tried and keep trying every imaginable tactic to find strengths and weaknesses in them, sometimes I try the weakest tactic for the map jusst to check, I like experimenting. There are however some general guidelines I tend to follow, let's see if I can formulate them.
- Make everything as easy as possible for you and as hard as possible for your opponent.
- Reward people that do good or try to do good, punish the ones who don't.
- Be aggressive, and do the unexpected.
- Take whatever opportunity you can get and exploit it to the max.
- Find your opponenst weak spots and hit them there.
- Don't be afraid to try new things, they usually work since no-one expects them.
For example I very rarely go for the JP/HMG rush, I know it works, I know how to do it, so there's no point. Besides, it is boring. An example of an uhorthodox tactic:
<i>ns_nothing starts. I jump in the CC and yell: "relocate to viaduct!!". I expect that at least 1 or 2 won't listen to me and go for cargo, and that's fine by me. When people move out I hear skulks moving from Via to cargo so I tell my team to go for Power Silo instead. I smack up Ominus, PS; and foreboding and get a CC and an IP up in PS.
The 2 marines at cargo makes sure that the skulks still think we are going there, which is the case 99% of the time, which buys us time to expand. As soon as PS is up I send all the marines off to Viaduct and order the last marine at cargo to make noise. We get to Via, kill a skulk and relocate once again. CC, IP and armory go up. The RT is killed and we start mining up the hive area, I recycle the IP's in Power Silo and tell marines to start shooting the hive. We win within 30 seconds or so.</i>
This wasn't anything special, just an example of how there isn't just one tactic that will work (actually cargo relocations have an awful track record on our server because it is so predictable) and that exploiting weaknesses is more effective then sticking to a rigid strategy.
Since I try all sorts of tactics all the time It's not that simple for me to say how I expands, some things that are usually true though:
- I have my marines stick together. Usually in 3 groups, one large group for the major task at hand, one for base defense and one for the secondary task.
- I often use mines, but I rely on marines to [b]move[/]. On nancy for example I almost never drop an armory in base, I usually drop an IP in base and an armory in mess hall. That way I don't have the trouble of people standing arozund base and more importantly I automatically get 3 nodes covered by Marines. They will spawn next to one, pass by the next, and be humping the armory right next to the last one. Actually I rarely drop an armory in base on any map, armories are the best way to get marines moving and they start out with enough ammo to get there.
- I adapt my tactics. Just because I start out trying for a relocation/JP-rush/2-hive lockdown/whatever doesn't mean I have to stick with it. If I find the opponent would be more vulnarable to another approach I use that instead (unless I'm experimenting in which case I will do the opposite, try to pull off the *worst* tactic for that scenario, like go for HA to take out the refinery hive).
- I like to take over the map. It is my map and I want it. I am not happy until I control the whole map. I consider an area controlled by approximately the following level:
lvl 1: some passive structures and/or mines.
lvl 2: + a marine or a small marine presence (they pass through often)
lvl 3: + active structures (turrets) and/or constant marine presence
lvl 4: + a phasegate and/or both marines mines and turrets
lvl 5: Turretfarm with all the optional extras and constant Marine presence.
I try to achieve lvl 3 at the choke points, lvl 2 at the important points and lvl 1 everywhere as soon as possible, and I will use my creativity to get it, this includes (but doesn't exclude anything) using all the cheap stuff in the book if I feel like it.
The reason I might win more often then for example Chopper Dave however isn't becaause of my tactics/strategies, it's because the Marines actually do what I tell them. A mediocre plan t´hat is carried out is better then a brilliant plan that isn't.
A wildcard commander could make NS pretty interesting sometimes.
Oh - sarcasm should be followed with smileys so we can avoid useless debates like we found on this thread <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I don't put up with that, if they want to eject me, fine. If someone tries something like that I usually say something aling the lines of:
"I DON'T GIVE A DAMN WHAT YOU WANT! <b>I</b> am the Commander, not you! If you want to COM, fine, get in the chair. If you don't, then shut the hell up and do as I say!"
Or something like that. People tend to respect megalomaniacs for some reason, I think the only reason some people try to boss the COM around is that they have gotten away with it before, after you shout at them they rarely try again.
Oh, and since <b>none</b> of those people <b>ever</b> want to COM themselves, you're safe. They usually just go: "Chill... I was just making a suggestion.."
Considering how many COM's that just sit there and drop buildings occasionally I can't really blame them for trying though.
very carefully, and avoiding me, and other aliens who wish to chew on you
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
(seriously teamwork, get squads, 5 lmg's tear a skulk apart
I understanded Xenogearz post when he said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However, turret won't work against fade! You must use massive amount of mines that coveres the entire base in order to stop the fades!! Don't forget that!! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That was funneh <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
The reason i started to argue with you about those turrets in base was, because many commander uses that "strategy" too often like i said. And i thought you are one of them. So i just didn't want you to encourage others to do turret farming.
Anyway your strategy in ns_nothing was guite interesting <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Iam just wondering how the hell you can make your whole team obey your orders that well <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
I mean it is hard enough for me to just keep everyone in base. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
Usually i have good strategies, but i just can't make my team to follow them.
In 1.1 in can make hotgroups <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> Perhaps i become a bit better commander then, because i was pretty good in C&C games to control several groups at the same time.
- I talk a lot. I am constantly saying what I am doing and giving people waypoints or telling them what to do. I someone asks me what to do I give him an assignment.
- I tend to win a lot (mainly because marines listen to me.. catch 22)
- I go ballistic when people don't do what I say.
When I am a marine the worst sort of COM's I know are the silent ones. I'm trying to keep my marines not only busy doing stuff but also "in the know".
"I'm upgrading lvl2 weapons now, and I dropped a proto lab in docking wing, someone build it. You guys at Foreboding stay put for a second I got a guy with a mines coming, just take out the res when he gets there. There's two skulks outside gen room so if you guys at Miasma could move over that would be good. 2:nd hive isn't started yet. Nice work saving that res-node guys, hang around a sec and I'll drop you an armory there as soon as I get res. Whoops, shotgun dropped right outside docking wing on the way to cargo, pick it up guys.. looks like they are securing red room now and PS already has a bunch of OC's so I'm going HA, lets keep our nodes alive so we can outfit everyone... what the hell!? Why the hell did you run off alone GL Goober?! If you don't get it back before it disappears you will be the only guy without HA and guns. Do NOT go off alone with a damn gun that's worth 33 res. Omg fades we're all gonna die!"
Like that. (except the last part;) )
I really didn't want to COM my last game on ns_nothing, but no-one else wanted to either so I had to. Keeping this thread in mind I stated "We will get a TF up in base immediatly and I will try to turret every damn res-node on the map".
We won <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
It took 1hr and 12 minutes but we did win in the end. The lag was massive because of all the turrets.
TF's at:
Marine Base, docking wing side (1:st)
Generator room (2:nd)
Cargo (3:d, std 3-res spot)
Generator room (4:th, closer to via so I could sige the alien res node in ominus)
Power silo, ominus side (5:th, to siege, lost it)
Foreboding (6:th and 7:th, to cover phasegate and RT)
Powersilo (8:th, 9:th and 10:th first to siege, second to secure and a backup up in the rafters)
In the vent leading to red room (red room was totally walled off, this TF died before we could kill the hive)
Inside Cargo hive (to keep them from starting it up)
Each TF was supporting 4-12 turrets, so the lag was a bit of a problem. We finished the hive stukka style with JP/GL kamikazes (oh man do people die when they both have a JP and a GL).
The marines were extremely motivated though and aliens wasted res because they expected the standard JP-rush (I never do the JP-rush but I don't think they thought it was me COM-ing when they saw the TF <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo--> )
I never built any Turrets at Miasma though.
This is why I hate all the stupid "This is the best starategy" or "You can only win this way" posts. You can win with any strategy depending on how your team performs and what the opposition is doing. You can even win with
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*edit*
Oh the best defense is a l337 phase gate defense grid, put 10 phase gates in your base. The marines can just go through constantly shooting the aliens from every direction, and telefragging mmmmmm ... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->