CplDavisI hunt the arctic SnonosJoin Date: 2003-01-09Member: 12097Members
U think tech rush is bad? What would u recommend? Have the marines sit around and wait for the Fades to come? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sorry, when Flayra says that marines are the stronger team (based on clan matahces) I believe him. If the games you play have aliens winning "the majority of the time" then you have a very poor marine team. If you're whining now, wait until 1.1 is out. With marine nerfs coming you're hopefully going to need to actually PLAY a full game.
However, I'd like to see games where, given equal strength, teams win about 50% of the time.
What should marines do if NOT tech rush? They should be doing what they did before. Grab one hive, and then head over towards hive number 2. By that time you should have HA/HMG on the marines and the aliens have fades and you can have a nice pitched battle for control of the game.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Savant is right...about things we would do IF 1.1 is balanced as Flayra envisions. In 1.04 that kind of game is juts not possible outside of NS_nothing. NS_nothing=only consistent HA/HMG map.
Just to play my own advocate the marines simply cannot win with only 1 hive, thus tech rush is the only option. I have played many games with probably some of the best marines out there (reg community) and only once (and that was because we had 5 HA before they got the second hive up) have I seen marines get the second hive against fades.
If TechRush = No && Fade = yes marine = dead
The game ends the second aliens get fades. Even with fully upgraded marines the umbra+defchamber+fade tears the marines to pieces. The balance issue needs to be that a team who really comes together in the time of need (2 hives) still has a slight prayer. The upgrades play too much of a role on who wins. There are always like 10 moments in every game when it is won or lose (like a relocation, a skulk taking out a phase gate, etc).
Just the words of a rambling man early in the morning.
No offense Mr Waffles, but the game was DESIGNED to be a pitched battle where aliens have 2 hives and marines have one. Flayra has generally said that he felt a key aspect of the game was the point when the aliens had fades and the marines had HA/HMG and they went head to head.
Fades have come down a good bit in terms of strength, and their cost was increased as well. What more do you want? Remember, the comm should be UPGRADING at the arms lab. That seems to be the biggest mistake many comms make. They settle for level 1 upgrades, and expect freshly spawned marines to take out fades. Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen.
On the other hand, get your level 3 ammo & level 3 armor marines to head out against fades and you will find the game shifting to your favor REAL quick. A level 3 LMG can kill a fade in ONE CLIP if you don't miss. If you do miss a few bullets, whip out the pistol and finish him off. While it only takes 3 acid rockets to kill a level 0 marine, a level 3 marine takes FIVE direct acid rocket hits to kill. (or 4 swipes)
Fades are SO easy to kill if you know HOW to kill them. Don't play their game of long distance acid love. Close the distance but stay just outside of melee range. Wait for them to shoot off their 4 or so acid rockets and then charge at them with your pistol and LMG.
Even a level 2 marine can kill a fade with LMG and pistol, if they are accurate. However, marines aren't meant to be working alone. So often, I see basic marines taking on fades solo when you should be WORKING together! While your buddy is unloading into the fade and getting killed, position yourself so you can finish the fade off. It is VERY do-able.
Remember, as a marine with no HA or HMG, you are not designed to be an instant fade killer. If you were, then imagine how you would be against skulks? Never underestimate the power of the LMG though. Even if you make the fade redeem you have taken that fade out of the action for at least 30 seconds. In that time you can do a lot of damage.
A level 1 marine on his own may not be a big threat, but a GROUP certainly is. Let's say there are three level 1 marines in an area and a fade wanders by. If you ALL rush that fade and close the distance so that you aren't picked off from far away, then you only need to hit the fade with 20 of your 50 bullets. (or a 40% accuracy rating) If all 3 marines can land 20 bullets on that fade, he is DEAD. (assuming he doesn't redeem - if he does he is still gone) If the fade kills one of you, then you can STILL kill him if you land 30 of your 50 bullets. (a 60% accuracy rating)
If you see the fade run away, RUSH HIM!!! He is running because he is hurt and vulnerable. Don't breathe a sigh of relief when the fade runs away, RUSH him and kill him so he doesn't come back at full health.
If you are finding umbra a problem, RUSH THE LERK. The lerk is a VERY weak alien (the weakest in the game) so if you can 'suicide kill' the lerk then you won't have to worry about it. For a level 1 marine it only takes 20 bullets to kill a lerk. (if you rush him and he moves OUT of the umbra - most will fall back as a panic response) In any case the umbra won't protect him forever, so get in there and show him some pistol love. One clip from your level 1 pistol will kill that lerk and leave you a full LMG to kill his fade friends.
Lerks usually never expect marines to rush them since they expect marines to be preoccupied with the fade. If you are a freshly spawned marine with no HA or HMG, then rush that lerk and take him out of the equation. Even if you die, you have just made your life MUCH easier in the short term.
The game only "ends the second aliens get fades" because you have GIVEN UP on yourself.
Nah, there's no such thing as a cheap tactic...If it's allowed to be done in the game, then it's just one of the many many ways of winning...We play to win right...Cheap tactics is exploiting serious game bugs ofcourse to give you that unfair advantage...
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
You, my friend, underestimate lerks WAY too much. Lerks can take on marines one on one WITHOUT umbra. WITH umbra, I can take out multiple marines. If I have a FADE with me, I can HIDE behind the fade so the marines will have to go around the fade to TRY to get to me while the fade is killing the marines. I've done the calculations. 4 level one upgrade marines charging a fade and a lerk hiding behind it can't kill the carapaced lerk even if they emptied all 200 of their lmg bullets (umbra is 5/6 blocking, fade is big, blocks 1/2 the bullets and asuming the marines have 80% accuracy). and of course there could be other aliens about too, like a nice gorge who heals. Aliens at hive 2=death to most LA marines. And the fact that the aliens are so MOBILE means the aliens will control most of the res, and can win in a game of attrition and hit and run.
1.1 BETTER change this...or else tech rushing, and 2 hive lockdowns will continue to be the marine strats (maybe not 2 hive lockdown if 1.1 means all evolutions at hive one. Then it'll just be down to rushing, rushing, rushing)
You seem to forget i was mainly talking about basic "fresh from spawn' marines with only 'arms lab' upgrades. Sure it will be touch to kill ANY upper level alien as a 'basic' marine, but it is possible. (heck I'll break out a knife if the lerk wants to play)
For non-basic marines, all it takes in one grenade launcher to take care of that pesky lerk. As much as umbra protects, it doesn't do jack for grenades.
However, as I said before, 'fresh from spawn' level 0 marines should NOT be able to solo any upper level alien with ease. That's why the marines have upgrades.
Grab level 3 armor and level 3 ammo upgrades and THEN charge a fade and see how you do. You'll find those fades aren't as touch anymore.
I agree with you that a pitted battle between HA and Fades was the design. From experience the past few months it has never come to that. The timing of the tech just seems off. So yes I do agree with you Savant.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Grenade launcher don't make it into the mix enough sadly. Very expensive, and the comm usually only drops it for HA people. PLUS slow as hell. Aliens, if they listen carefully, can easily dodge greandes usually, so that's not TOO big of a problem, but it does help delay the aliens if say...there is a gl marine in base spamming.
I'm suggestion that EVEN level 3 marines will still have trouble if the aliens support each otehr correctly (like using web traps, umbra, and cover fire and distractions)
Knifing a lerk? I haven't been able to do it yet. Lerk bites do 75 damage. WAY too easy to bite marines with one if you're standing in umbra.
I'm really not THAT afraid of one, or even two fades without lerk or gorge support, but throw a lerk or gorge in there...and things start to get a LOT worse. (Being webbed while faes slash you, etc etc)
Let me just do some silly math which might not be correct but let's do it. And for those of you who thinks numbers mean nothing, by all means ignore this: Now we're not taking into account that carapace mysteriously eliminates 20% damage or whatever as it has never been proved correctly IMO. A fade has 200/150 which means it has 500 hp of pure health. A lmg marines lvl 0 weapon will need 50 bullets to kill a fade. lvl 1 weapon will need 46 bullets to kill a fade. lvl 2 weapon will need 42 bullets to kill a fade. lvl 3 weapon will need 39 bullets to kill a fade. As you can see the numbers are dropping, but is it enough? Considering how the lmg isn't as accurate as the acid rocket and how the marines are slower. IMO I don't think unequiped marines should have a chance 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1 vs a 54 res expensive fade. It would be crazy if all the sudden stock marines were owning fades.....
Comments
However, I'd like to see games where, given equal strength, teams win about 50% of the time.
What should marines do if NOT tech rush? They should be doing what they did before. Grab one hive, and then head over towards hive number 2. By that time you should have HA/HMG on the marines and the aliens have fades and you can have a nice pitched battle for control of the game.
For anyone who likes rushing, there's always CS.
Regards,
Savant
If TechRush = No && Fade = yes
marine = dead
The game ends the second aliens get fades. Even with fully upgraded marines the umbra+defchamber+fade tears the marines to pieces. The balance issue needs to be that a team who really comes together in the time of need (2 hives) still has a slight prayer. The upgrades play too much of a role on who wins. There are always like 10 moments in every game when it is won or lose (like a relocation, a skulk taking out a phase gate, etc).
Just the words of a rambling man early in the morning.
Fades have come down a good bit in terms of strength, and their cost was increased as well. What more do you want? Remember, the comm should be UPGRADING at the arms lab. That seems to be the biggest mistake many comms make. They settle for level 1 upgrades, and expect freshly spawned marines to take out fades. Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen.
On the other hand, get your level 3 ammo & level 3 armor marines to head out against fades and you will find the game shifting to your favor REAL quick. A level 3 LMG can kill a fade in ONE CLIP if you don't miss. If you do miss a few bullets, whip out the pistol and finish him off. While it only takes 3 acid rockets to kill a level 0 marine, a level 3 marine takes FIVE direct acid rocket hits to kill. (or 4 swipes)
Fades are SO easy to kill if you know HOW to kill them. Don't play their game of long distance acid love. Close the distance but stay just outside of melee range. Wait for them to shoot off their 4 or so acid rockets and then charge at them with your pistol and LMG.
Even a level 2 marine can kill a fade with LMG and pistol, if they are accurate. However, marines aren't meant to be working alone. So often, I see basic marines taking on fades solo when you should be WORKING together! While your buddy is unloading into the fade and getting killed, position yourself so you can finish the fade off. It is VERY do-able.
Remember, as a marine with no HA or HMG, you are not designed to be an instant fade killer. If you were, then imagine how you would be against skulks? Never underestimate the power of the LMG though. Even if you make the fade redeem you have taken that fade out of the action for at least 30 seconds. In that time you can do a lot of damage.
A level 1 marine on his own may not be a big threat, but a GROUP certainly is. Let's say there are three level 1 marines in an area and a fade wanders by. If you ALL rush that fade and close the distance so that you aren't picked off from far away, then you only need to hit the fade with 20 of your 50 bullets. (or a 40% accuracy rating) If all 3 marines can land 20 bullets on that fade, he is DEAD. (assuming he doesn't redeem - if he does he is still gone) If the fade kills one of you, then you can STILL kill him if you land 30 of your 50 bullets. (a 60% accuracy rating)
If you see the fade run away, RUSH HIM!!! He is running because he is hurt and vulnerable. Don't breathe a sigh of relief when the fade runs away, RUSH him and kill him so he doesn't come back at full health.
If you are finding umbra a problem, RUSH THE LERK. The lerk is a VERY weak alien (the weakest in the game) so if you can 'suicide kill' the lerk then you won't have to worry about it. For a level 1 marine it only takes 20 bullets to kill a lerk. (if you rush him and he moves OUT of the umbra - most will fall back as a panic response) In any case the umbra won't protect him forever, so get in there and show him some pistol love. One clip from your level 1 pistol will kill that lerk and leave you a full LMG to kill his fade friends.
Lerks usually never expect marines to rush them since they expect marines to be preoccupied with the fade. If you are a freshly spawned marine with no HA or HMG, then rush that lerk and take him out of the equation. Even if you die, you have just made your life MUCH easier in the short term.
The game only "ends the second aliens get fades" because you have GIVEN UP on yourself.
Regards,
Savant
-psygnosis-
1.1 BETTER change this...or else tech rushing, and 2 hive lockdowns will continue to be the marine strats (maybe not 2 hive lockdown if 1.1 means all evolutions at hive one. Then it'll just be down to rushing, rushing, rushing)
For non-basic marines, all it takes in one grenade launcher to take care of that pesky lerk. As much as umbra protects, it doesn't do jack for grenades.
However, as I said before, 'fresh from spawn' level 0 marines should NOT be able to solo any upper level alien with ease. That's why the marines have upgrades.
Grab level 3 armor and level 3 ammo upgrades and THEN charge a fade and see how you do. You'll find those fades aren't as touch anymore.
Regards,
Savant
1:30 marine win
minutes of couse
I'm suggestion that EVEN level 3 marines will still have trouble if the aliens support each otehr correctly (like using web traps, umbra, and cover fire and distractions)
Knifing a lerk? I haven't been able to do it yet. Lerk bites do 75 damage. WAY too easy to bite marines with one if you're standing in umbra.
I'm really not THAT afraid of one, or even two fades without lerk or gorge support, but throw a lerk or gorge in there...and things start to get a LOT worse. (Being webbed while faes slash you, etc etc)
Now we're not taking into account that carapace mysteriously eliminates 20% damage or whatever as it has never been proved correctly IMO.
A fade has 200/150 which means it has 500 hp of pure health.
A lmg marines lvl 0 weapon will need 50 bullets to kill a fade.
lvl 1 weapon will need 46 bullets to kill a fade.
lvl 2 weapon will need 42 bullets to kill a fade.
lvl 3 weapon will need 39 bullets to kill a fade.
As you can see the numbers are dropping, but is it enough? Considering how the lmg isn't as accurate as the acid rocket and how the marines are slower. IMO I don't think unequiped marines should have a chance 1 on 1 or even 2 on 1 vs a 54 res expensive fade. It would be crazy if all the sudden stock marines were owning fades.....