Ha+hmg+welders = Unstoppable?
echs
Join Date: 2002-12-27 Member: 11568Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-12-27 Member: 11568Members, Constellation
Last night, I was playing in a blueyonder server. It was 8v8 in map Tanith...
I played as aliens and we had Waste handling and Fusion Reactor hives...The marines relocated to Satellite Communications. We captured every res node except the one in Satellite which the marines obviously had.
We we're doing well, almost wiped the marines out...Then something changed...All of a sudden, all the marines we're equipped with HA, HMG and welds...They moved together, all 8 of them as one tight group, spraying at anything that moved and repairing eachother.
We were all Fades and we could not stop them. They totally wiped us out and even our bases, they were like Siege Cannons on legs 8|
They continued to push us back and we could not hold them. We lost Fusion...The game lasted over an hour
We were amazed they were able to fund all 8 players with HA, HMG and welds whenever they died with 1 res node...And they died quite often...Trickle saving. It's the first time I've ever seen pure team work on NS, it was an amazing game. But they were unstoppable...
-psygnosis-
I played as aliens and we had Waste handling and Fusion Reactor hives...The marines relocated to Satellite Communications. We captured every res node except the one in Satellite which the marines obviously had.
We we're doing well, almost wiped the marines out...Then something changed...All of a sudden, all the marines we're equipped with HA, HMG and welds...They moved together, all 8 of them as one tight group, spraying at anything that moved and repairing eachother.
We were all Fades and we could not stop them. They totally wiped us out and even our bases, they were like Siege Cannons on legs 8|
They continued to push us back and we could not hold them. We lost Fusion...The game lasted over an hour
We were amazed they were able to fund all 8 players with HA, HMG and welds whenever they died with 1 res node...And they died quite often...Trickle saving. It's the first time I've ever seen pure team work on NS, it was an amazing game. But they were unstoppable...
-psygnosis-
Comments
Just shoot the web so it will hit them instantly as it is created.
Pre-Requisite building costs and the actual building costs.
Research cost and time.
The arms lab upgrades they so obviously had(a fade can do nearly 100 armor damage to a HA marine,8 fades spamming acid should do enough splash to damage everyone quite severly).
Either the marines had a massive stockpile already,and i MEAN MASSIVE,or the admin was screwing around.
Btw heard of umbra?
But, my thread seems almost irrelevant. Look here;
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=25222' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/in...=ST&f=1&t=25222</a>
-psygnosis-
If it can be done the opposite team deserved this.
....
or maybe the game is balanced.
Only problem is finding somewhere all the fades can get LOS at the same time. Reactor room and chemical transport right outside Sat Comm would have been prime choices.
Actually, you can't web marines by shooting them directly with web. You have to create a web strand that, when completed, intersects the marine. This is also how you web a marine that stands still trying to avoid webs.
Either way, its been a while since i've seen this sort of action on a server. These days its all rush for jps and hmgs and off to (try) kill a hive.
Consider and compare alien teamwork and marine teamwork, side by side. By this I mean a group of various alien classes working together and a group of variously equipped marines working together, watched over by the commander.
Alien teamwork can be devastating but beatable with simple GL spam.
Marine teamwork requires more res and people admittedly, but is pretty much unstoppable in most cases.
The focus fire technique I describe above i've only seen once, on the tram tunnel in bast, and it wasn't co-ordinated at first, just happened a load of fades came from refinery to fight all at once.
However it absolutely devastated a group of HAs who were welding each other constantly when we all went for 'the one on the left'. Needless to say we soon took feedwater and won.
It was spoiled by the fact all our team started leaving causing the game end abruptly sending us into the ready room.
During my 4months of playing NS, I've seen nothing like it. I think it was bygames Natural Selection v1.04 #02 (194.117.138.244:27015)
That's what I like about NS, how the course of the game can change in as little as seconds.
-psygnosis-
dont forget the Nade launcha!
I use to do it all the time on previous version. Sometimes even letting Aliens getting 3 hives on purpose... Then with that strategy I was taking back the hives one by one destroying everything, fades falling like flies.
But on v1.04, u have to be a really dumb alien team to lose against a group of HA with welders.
First advice: (for fades)
<u>Do not use redemption for FADES!!!</u>
Especially if u have al the res on the map... U only use redemption when u lost ur 2nd hive and ur the only fade left <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->, how many **** fades uses redemption.
Second Advice:(for fades)
Go on body contact vs HA,s (use celerity) turn around them while u slash them.
Third advice: (for skulks)
Attack with leap, Iv tested leap on a fully upgrade HA, u can do up to 100 damage leap on his back and bite at the end of ur leap attack. And if the HA go backwards while u do that,,, its lethal... So if ur skulks attack with the fades keep the pressure on HA.
LAST advice:
If marines can do a good teamwork, so u do. I mean get some gorges to web them some lerks with umbra fades, skulks every man counts. If ur just going to sit there and shoot acid **** from far away and run away when they advance... well ur dead...
Seriously on v1.04 there is no reasons to lose vs marines when they only have 1 res nod. if u have all res u build WOL everywhere on the map ...closing them access to everywhere
I've commanded such a team only once... We won without any problem. I'd love to command an organized team once more <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
I know, I know, there are exceptions, but the marines usually have to mess up for that to happen.
Right now, in organized play, marines are way overpowered at the mid game. The biggest problem, IMO, is that the welder repairs armor WAY TOO FAST. A welder can repair armor from 0 to 270 in less than 10 seconds.
I guess we'll just have to wait until 1.1 for that to be fixed. Unfortunately, everyone here is saying that Aliens are overpowered.. I hope the dev team does not cater to the n00bs instead of the experienced players.
its was true on v1.03 but not on v1.04.
Group of HMGS vs fades aint that good.
it all depends on how n00bs the aliens are to react.
see my reply on how to do it if ur one of those n00bs.
Since NS came out I was probably the only one stating that marines were much more powerfull then the aliens,,, everyone kept saying that Aliens were overpowered. but when they were coming to our server (cis server at the time) they were gettin owned by the ha hmg welder trip... Even with 3 hives.
But this aint true anymore, now the game is much more balanced. So best teamplay wins... no matter what
HA's are hardly invincible, they just have to be killed right away or they heal quickly. Concentrate fire (biting) on one HA, and he'll go down quick. You should be able to take them out faster than they are replaced.
If you only have one hive, however, you're still pretty screwed. You just don't spawn enough to outlast them.
The exception would of course be on large servers (8+ per team), because you just can't survive that much firepower all in one place. For that matter, they really won't need HA, just guns and a little healthspam.
What has changed from 1.03 to 1.04 to support your statement? Umm.. Umbra is weaker, Fades are weaker.. Huh?
Guys, Fades literally last 2 seconds under concentrated HMG fire. A skulk lasts .5 seconds. A lerk can't stay in support due to the GL.
I don't care how good the Aliens are, the Marines will be unstoppable unless they make mistakes.
Nitro, you play too many pub games. I play on a private server, where both sides know how to work together. Think before you open your mouth criticizing someone else about something you know so little about.
If it's more than 8 people on a team, the marines have an advantage due to the resource model. Plus, tanith isn't exactly the most balanced map.
The very way it's set up is also skewed.. marines can spend ~40 on an upgrade for their entire team, while aliens need to spend ~33-70 + 6 individually to get upgraded. The marines rule the large games.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->fortheloveofgodandallthingsholy <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've been in 3-4 man squads armed with about the same loadout (We had a HA/GLer for OCs/DCs and 2 JP/HMG/Welder as Scouts) and we tore through a great alien team like wet toilet paper. That was an impress display of teamwork and firepower but what <i>you</i> witnessed was a <b>might of religous proportions</b>.
From a tactics point-of-view if I had all those resources to spend I would have invested in a pair JP/HMG combos so the JPers can work as a team of two, preferably as a scout for the main force (HA squad). The alien counter, as it has already been pointed out, is <b>web</b>. A decently organized alien pack consisting of a battle gorge, a lerk and a couple of fades/skulks can take down a lot of HA/HMGers. The key is the gorge first webs them, then <b><i>webs the surrounding area</b></i> so as soon as the web wears off, if they move they will be webbed again. (<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> *EViL*) The Fades/Skulks can then do their work.
Why the JP/HMG scouts is a good counter is when they are scouting forward they can hear the gorge piddling and paddling along. If he is putting up towers JPers can wiz in and take him out. If your HA squad has been detected and an alien pack is assembled to intercept, your scouts can give you advanced warning that a battle gorge is in the pack and to have an extra HA use his welder to break webs (while the other HA/welder heals).
The best counter is probably to have a HA/GLer. He shouldn't be in the front of the squad anyways so if your HA squad is caught off guard and get webbed the GLer can try to keep the aliens back until the webs wear off, of course if your GLer gets webbed see above, but GLers <i><b>you do not need to be at the front of the squad, actually it is St00pid for you to be at the front so please, hang back just a bit</i></b>.
So, <i>unstoppable</i>? No, I don't think so.
<b>Insanely Powerful</b>? Yah, most definately.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
How long does a gorge, even with carapace, last againts 4 HMG's (geing generous here and assuming the rest of the HA death squad was distracted)? Especially when they have their gun aimed at it from the first millisecond before it went around the corner, because they have motion tracking? And how long if, even before it came around the corner, the grenade guy bounced some explosives around the corner, again because he saw the fatty coming on motion tracking?
I can't say how long exactly, but I don't thing the fatty will have much time to web them before dying of lead poisoning, unless perhaps that fatty has a very low ping, perfect aim, and a really unhealthy supply of amphetamin.
I can't say how long exactly, but I don't thing the fatty will have much time to web them before dying of lead poisoning, unless perhaps that fatty has a very low ping, perfect aim, and a really unhealthy supply of amphetamin.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well... I've been that gorge.
Think about it this way. A bunch of Fades are hurling acid rockets at you under a cloud of umbra emitted by a lerk who's taking pot shots at you with a long stream of spikes while Skulks are leaping to and fro chomping here and there. And then you have Mr.Gorge cool as a cuccumber sitting safely in umbra at that back of the pack laying out webs.
Most HA squads I've seen who run into a wall of acid rockets shoot at the most direct threat they can get their crosshairs on. A fade is usually that target. Rarely have I ever seen a HA try to snipe a Gorge while they are being bombarded with acid rockets and rushed with swipe. It will be more likely they will go for the more direct and larger target in their view.
That is why I suggested JP/HMGs as counters. There is a chance they can hone in on the gorge and with their speed they can rush the pack specifically aiming for the gorge and he will crumple to accurate HMG fire.
You don't need to be a sniper for webbing, I aim the initial webs from wall to wall infront and in the squad, I don't aim for a single marine at a time. My goal is to first incapicitate the HA/HMGs then spread webs all around them so when it wears off they move and they'll be webbed again (hard not to move when fades and skulks are attacking you). Even before I need to web all around them the Fades and Skulks are gonna be all over them.
I have done this, and have seen this done on occasion, even on pubs. Teamwork is necessary but not a high level. Just look at the weapons, they seem to fit together nicely used in this combination and if they have the sense in sticking together this sort of tactic will usually just happen for the alien pack.
<!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
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The alien res system is fine. In fact its damn good. Theres very little difference in the time to second hive as the alien team size varies.
It's the marine system that is unbalanced.
What has changed from 1.03 to 1.04 to support your statement? Umm.. Umbra is weaker, Fades are weaker.. Huh?
Guys, Fades literally last 2 seconds under concentrated HMG fire. A skulk lasts .5 seconds. A lerk can't stay in support due to the GL.
I don't care how good the Aliens are, the Marines will be unstoppable unless they make mistakes.
Nitro, you play too many pub games. I play on a private server, where both sides know how to work together. Think before you open your mouth criticizing someone else about something you know so little about. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tempus is right. What I generally do when we have a pack of HA Welders are running around is get behind them and attack their base with a skulk/fade or two. Seeing as the entire team is in HA out attacking they either have to crawl back towards base while getting harassed by your team or they have to drop a new chair and spawn portals where they are at. Either way the aliens get an advantage from.
What has changed from 1.03 to 1.04 to support your statement? Umm.. Umbra is weaker, Fades are weaker.. Huh?
Guys, Fades literally last 2 seconds under concentrated HMG fire. A skulk lasts .5 seconds. A lerk can't stay in support due to the GL.
I don't care how good the Aliens are, the Marines will be unstoppable unless they make mistakes.
Nitro, you play too many pub games. I play on a private server, where both sides know how to work together. Think before you open your mouth criticizing someone else about something you know so little about. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tempus is right. What I generally do when we have a pack of HA Welders are running around is get behind them and attack their base with a skulk/fade or two. Seeing as the entire team is in HA out attacking they either have to crawl back towards base while getting harassed by your team or they have to drop a new chair and spawn portals where they are at. Either way the aliens get an advantage from. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hence the importance of <b>Web</b>.
You gotta take their HMGs and Welders away from them or any aliens rushes will fall to a hail of lead.
As for scrims... I rarely, if ever see HAs in the scrims I play. We're not in CAL or anything though...