Why Organized Ns Play Needs Help
Ayatollah
Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11921Members
<div class="IPBDescription">This one's for Grendel</div> I posted this earlier under "basing your strategies around a jetpack rush", but I felt that I brought up issues that addressed the game in general.
Although this topic has probably been beat into the ground (and no, i didn't read all the posts, so apologies in advance for repeating), I'd just like to chip in.
I agree very strongly with Grendel. There's a difference between an effective strat and THE effective strat. From my observation, the marine (and possibly jp) rush is THE tactic of choice. There is no alternative that matches the JP rush in speed, resource efficiency, and combat effectiveness.
The problem arises when the JP rush is THE tactic. There is not a huge amount of strategy behind it. So you have to hide your res nozzles? The aliens have to defend against your rush, or they get spawn camped for the loss. Which means they need EVERYONE with them. Which means (with earlygame marine firepower) you can have one marine running around the map capping with impunity.
This, more or less, turns natural-selection clan matches into an FPS game more than an RTS game. The game, in pubs, is SO much more fun. You have to account for more conservative strategies, since you can't rely on everyone to have unerring shots. Anyways, I'm getting off topic.
What is the counter to the marine rush in clan games? With the long alien spawn time, with unupgraded guns being able to take down a skulk in 9(?) shots, and with (essentially) one spawn point, even one halfskilled marine can get away with camping spawns for a while. The aliens just lack the means to counter this early strategy.
What we have here a severe departure from the intended RTS aspect of the game. Instead of the epic flanking manuevers and unexpected sieges, we have rush rush rush rush. I've rarely seen or even heard of a scrim/match that's gone past a first hive. I believe the NS team should work to correct the disparity between the two modes (pub/clan) of play, before everyone who learns the game learns it under the marine rush. Even pub play in CS could remotely resemble clan play.
-Ayatollah
ns.astimulus.com
Although this topic has probably been beat into the ground (and no, i didn't read all the posts, so apologies in advance for repeating), I'd just like to chip in.
I agree very strongly with Grendel. There's a difference between an effective strat and THE effective strat. From my observation, the marine (and possibly jp) rush is THE tactic of choice. There is no alternative that matches the JP rush in speed, resource efficiency, and combat effectiveness.
The problem arises when the JP rush is THE tactic. There is not a huge amount of strategy behind it. So you have to hide your res nozzles? The aliens have to defend against your rush, or they get spawn camped for the loss. Which means they need EVERYONE with them. Which means (with earlygame marine firepower) you can have one marine running around the map capping with impunity.
This, more or less, turns natural-selection clan matches into an FPS game more than an RTS game. The game, in pubs, is SO much more fun. You have to account for more conservative strategies, since you can't rely on everyone to have unerring shots. Anyways, I'm getting off topic.
What is the counter to the marine rush in clan games? With the long alien spawn time, with unupgraded guns being able to take down a skulk in 9(?) shots, and with (essentially) one spawn point, even one halfskilled marine can get away with camping spawns for a while. The aliens just lack the means to counter this early strategy.
What we have here a severe departure from the intended RTS aspect of the game. Instead of the epic flanking manuevers and unexpected sieges, we have rush rush rush rush. I've rarely seen or even heard of a scrim/match that's gone past a first hive. I believe the NS team should work to correct the disparity between the two modes (pub/clan) of play, before everyone who learns the game learns it under the marine rush. Even pub play in CS could remotely resemble clan play.
-Ayatollah
ns.astimulus.com
Comments
Edit: 1.1 should be changed 1.04
Sifo
And organized marine teams usually dont' get ambushed. Even IF they do, the losses do not consist of the whole team, and bunnyhopping (another gripe) usually ensures that they're right back where they were very quickly.
-Ayatollah
Honestly, players wouldn't need to rely on JP's if they were cooperative and the commander competent.
And yeah, Sirius, I've always been leery about spending 45 + 25 + 9/per for jets when the marines can be just as effective by changing their behavior (free). The force of 4 marines with hmgs and the occasional medpack can take out anything if they don't do something stupid that will get exploited by the skulks. The ones I see the most are not checking their 6, wandering off somewhere to die, and shooting each other in the back (less common as the other 2).
Once the other team is stuck in the spawn queue, what do you need jetpacks for?
Of course, I also appreciate that jetpacks are mindblowingly powerful on certain maps, like ns_nancy and ns_nothing. But that doesn't mean that I like it.
Aliens have hive sight. This means all aliens, newbie or pro, know where conflict zones are, where marines are moving, what hives are up, etc. While teamwork can improve the response time and magnitude to a threat, there is a baseline response (people just looking at hivesight and running after the yellow or red) that is pretty good.
The marines have no such thing. They can sit peacefully in base while they lose a hive without even knowing it. The commander (on pubs) gets distracted, cant organize all the marines quickly, and dosen't get upgrades done etc. The baseline response for marines is ZERO. This is the problem. I believe that if a 'conflict monitor' or something was added, it would improve the baseline teamwork on pubs, without influencing the teamwork/capabilities of pro players (as with pro players, the comm doesn't get distracted etc). This monitor would basically give alerts to marines (in the form of a red waypoint or something) of marine structures/players that are under attack. This would allow marines to know what locations are under attack so that they may phase there/run there without requiring the comm to first notice the problem and then to order the marines to get there.
You may think 'oh but this will just make the marines all independant of the comm, and thats against their philosophy', which is kinda true. But i believe that this is necessary to make pub marines work together a little bit better. It will create a baseline of teamwork for the marines that will allow them to compete with the aliens baseline teamwork.
Comments? Criticism?
EDIT: yay 700th post
With the same amount of teamwork, marines run over aliens in clan play. Consistently. There might be some freak accidents, like when my team plays, but otherwise. Yeah.
My beef is, where public play can be so 10-hour-addictively fun, clan matches are over before the second hive. Why? Per the original post.
Good organization shouldn't make the game less fun. In the case of this game, turn it into an FPS.
-Ayatollah
<edit>
*per www.caleague.com, rule 4.50. There is no clear definition of bunnyhopping as an exploit.
</edit>
<edit again>
Sirius: everything goes in pubs. You see nothing but JP rushes in clan play unless the marines feel like taking a risk. Given equal teams, the jp (more generally, marine) rush is foolproof.
It's not necessary for clans to expand and mine their base, set up defences, go with HA, whatever (read: use alternative strategies). It's all a luxury. You could script the commander's role.
</edit>
Along with the JP nerf i'm sure theres loads of changes that we have no idea about which will change the game in dynamic ways we can't imagine ATM, and for the better.
MMZ, we know the minimap is going to be much more useful in 1.1, including showing your teammates positions.
correction, it's in PRE-season.