Strategy Is Dynamic Not Static...
Debonair
Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10399Members
Join Date: 2002-12-02 Member: 10399Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Education TIME!</div> We call the game a FPS/Strategy modification right? Well, any decent strategist knows that different tactics work in different situations with different outcomes. This simple fact likes to fly over many NS players and forum posters heads alike, thus its time for a little education in fable format. But first a few factual definitions.
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Fact: Marines and Kharra = dynamic, they can change tactics, and respond in different ways.
Fact: Turrets, OTs, webs, mines, etc = static, they fulfill the same role no matter what.
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Example of Closed-minded (static) Strategists: Turrets are useless!!!
Description:
Turrets are inherently a "static defense", that means it will work the exact same way in all situations. Now allow me to show you how you are right in some cases, AND VERY WRONG in others; thus proving that effective strategy requires adapting/open-minded/dynamic thinking.
Equiped Dynamic Attack beating simple static defense:
An adaquetely equiped dynamic player can adapt to defeating a static defense. (Ex. a smart skulk can usually adapt to a turret farm and find a weakness, if not they can just go on suicidal runs to try and take out the factory, etc.)
Complex Static Defense beating unequiped Dynamic attack:
The idea is to adapt, thus in order to fight against a smart dynamic opponent one needs either a well rounded static defense (EX. skulks are trying to suicide bite attack turrets or the factry, the marines place a few mines around the turret factory and around the turrets to defeat the level 2 skulk offensive.
Dynamic Defense Beating a Dynamic Attack:
A dynamic defense can adapt to the tactic being used by the attacker. (Ex. A fade is attempting to take out a static outpost. The commander expecting this, put the turrets out of LOS to avoid distant attacks, and then assigns a few aggressive marines to attack the fade when he attempts to acid rocket the turrets. What happens, typically the fade ends up with a face full of lead if he wasn't expecting the dynamic defense that was set up to defeat his strategy.) In other words, the fade wants to take out the "unmanned" outpost, but he knows he has to take out the static defense first, so he plans to strafe in and out using acid rockets to take out the TF. The defense entices the fade to attempt an "open" attack by rounding the corner to attack the turrets, a few smart hidden marines pounce on the fade moments after he fires a few rockets, thus likely defeating the dynamic offensive.
Moral of the story:
Strategies mix and match in terms of beating each other. Think starcraft via marines w/ medics take out small zergling offensive. But Lurkers take out the marines w/ medics... etc etc etc etc.... Now ADD IN FPS, everything gets more complex because then the individual skill of the players, the tactics used, and the equipment had affect the outcome.
Strategy Redefined against "static-minded" players:
No single strategy in a well structured game will work against a smart adapting (dynamic) group of strategies. Thus for the sake of everyone playing, quit making half-thoughout statements like "turrets are never effective." They are in SOME situations........ Strategy IS DYNAMIC! Rant is done, pant pant, phew....
Wanted:
1. Constructive Criticism
2. Open-minded debates
3. Other examples
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Fact: Marines and Kharra = dynamic, they can change tactics, and respond in different ways.
Fact: Turrets, OTs, webs, mines, etc = static, they fulfill the same role no matter what.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Example of Closed-minded (static) Strategists: Turrets are useless!!!
Description:
Turrets are inherently a "static defense", that means it will work the exact same way in all situations. Now allow me to show you how you are right in some cases, AND VERY WRONG in others; thus proving that effective strategy requires adapting/open-minded/dynamic thinking.
Equiped Dynamic Attack beating simple static defense:
An adaquetely equiped dynamic player can adapt to defeating a static defense. (Ex. a smart skulk can usually adapt to a turret farm and find a weakness, if not they can just go on suicidal runs to try and take out the factory, etc.)
Complex Static Defense beating unequiped Dynamic attack:
The idea is to adapt, thus in order to fight against a smart dynamic opponent one needs either a well rounded static defense (EX. skulks are trying to suicide bite attack turrets or the factry, the marines place a few mines around the turret factory and around the turrets to defeat the level 2 skulk offensive.
Dynamic Defense Beating a Dynamic Attack:
A dynamic defense can adapt to the tactic being used by the attacker. (Ex. A fade is attempting to take out a static outpost. The commander expecting this, put the turrets out of LOS to avoid distant attacks, and then assigns a few aggressive marines to attack the fade when he attempts to acid rocket the turrets. What happens, typically the fade ends up with a face full of lead if he wasn't expecting the dynamic defense that was set up to defeat his strategy.) In other words, the fade wants to take out the "unmanned" outpost, but he knows he has to take out the static defense first, so he plans to strafe in and out using acid rockets to take out the TF. The defense entices the fade to attempt an "open" attack by rounding the corner to attack the turrets, a few smart hidden marines pounce on the fade moments after he fires a few rockets, thus likely defeating the dynamic offensive.
Moral of the story:
Strategies mix and match in terms of beating each other. Think starcraft via marines w/ medics take out small zergling offensive. But Lurkers take out the marines w/ medics... etc etc etc etc.... Now ADD IN FPS, everything gets more complex because then the individual skill of the players, the tactics used, and the equipment had affect the outcome.
Strategy Redefined against "static-minded" players:
No single strategy in a well structured game will work against a smart adapting (dynamic) group of strategies. Thus for the sake of everyone playing, quit making half-thoughout statements like "turrets are never effective." They are in SOME situations........ Strategy IS DYNAMIC! Rant is done, pant pant, phew....
Wanted:
1. Constructive Criticism
2. Open-minded debates
3. Other examples
Comments
GSH
S
But every commander has his own little idea of strategy and how a game should be played/won.
And the fact that the marines aren't AI controlled, makes it all the more complicated.
I'm glad someone understands the strategy aspect of the game: it's never a black and white or win/lose situation. It depends on squads and, thusly, the commander/overall strat.
Try and think of the JP/HMG strategy as the equivalent to the 3 Hive Onos/Lerk Rush, both will "technically annihilate most opponents despite their equipment, and both also are highly resource/time intensive in the making. Thus the point of the matter is, if the marines get to that point, the kharaa haven't been doing their job adaquetely.
If I were the equivalent to a Kharaa commander I would try to amass a surgical strike on the prototype lab as well as the upgraded armory. By taking out the core of the problem, you buy the kharaa time. And if one cannot get to either the lab or armory, go RES node hunting to starve the commander from being able to deploy many of these behemoths.
As for the tactical dynamic of beating this strategy, the best bet would be gorge ceiling webbings in small hallways prior to the hive, along with some OCs and possibly lerks to engage those that do "fly." If those JP/HMG boys get into the hive, it will be a difficult battle to take them out since they have the ability to JP in such a large area.
Oh and Pr0n, the JP/HMG strategy is static by name but dynamic in deployment, because the playersJPing adapt to their situations. The best bet for a static defense would be ceiling webbings and dispersed OC's. The best dynamic counter would be a surgical strike, or JUST NOT letting the Marines tech up that high and have resources to deploy it...
And..... My theory holds. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif'><!--endemo-->
As a moral to the story you posted Pr0n, if one has "all the resources and time to create the ultimate offensive/defensive barriers" then it really isn't much of a strategy game now is it? A good strategy game is one with strategies that have constant counters based on some sort of resource system, the skill is in being able to adapt to the strategy being used with the least use of res. Now again add in the FPS aspect and you have a very intriguing designed game, kudos to the NS staff! Oh and if you want to know how to make kharaa surgical strikes, we call it skulks with parasite. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif'><!--endemo-->
Although using this "dynamic" theory the aliens WILL have a better chance of defending any type of attack. Even though i wouldnt think of these offense / ambush's as dynamic sense they are strategically planned before the match where and when kharra skulks will ambush depending on hives and locations the marines are coming from... ie: nancy messhall and aux gen *GREAT CAMPING SPOTS*
As of 1.04, it IS possible to always create the utimate offense. The JP/HMG rush is THAT powerful. That is why Flayra will fix it in 1.1
The problem with this game right now is that sometimes for a given strategy there is only one "good" counter to it because the otehr ones are simply...too expensive, or too slow.
In 1.1, JP/HMg rushing will be a strat, not THE strat. We know its broken in 1.04, quit bringing it up. Please!! <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif'><!--endemo-->
I guess i'm imagining 1-hive lockdown and tech up then aren't I ?! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif'><!--endemo-->
I'm disappointed that this is considered 'boring' now.
Sifo
What would NOT be boring is letting the aliens have two hives, and have HA vs FADE battles. Sadly, those don't happen often. that'll be fixed in 1.1.
Sifo