Finalised layout

ChromeAngel · May 2002

<div class="IPBDescription">Last time i do this</div>Alongside playtesting, working on NS World and posting loads of pointless comments here I've been working on a little thing call NS_NEXT.

I've released a couple of earlier versions of this map and now I think I have the layout pinned down pretty good. Now I have an ambition to get this map included as aprt of the official release. In order to do this NS_NEXT will need to be seriously hot. I consider my chances pretty slim, but i'm trying.

I need your help to tell me what needs improving. What can I do to add the kind of visual falir that will make NS_NEXT an essential for the Natural Selection map pack.

To save any awkward questions later here is some information about this build:

-chart results from the last build

Object names Objects/Maxobjs Memory / Maxmem Fullness
------------ --------------- --------------- --------
models 158/400 10112/25600 (39.5)
planes 23884/32767 477680/655340 (72.9)
vertexes 17783/65535 213396/786420 (27.1)
nodes 7930/32767 190320/786408 (24.2)
texinfos 4859/32767 194360/1310680 (14.8)
faces 12986/65535 259720/1310700 (19.8)
clipnodes 24338/32767 194704/262136 (74.3)
leaves 4748/8192 132944/229376 (58.0)
marksurfaces 17740/65535 35480/131070 (27.1)
surfedges 58636/512000 234544/2048000 (11.5)
edges 31615/256000 126460/1024000 (12.3)
texdata [variable] 8452/4194304 ( 0.2)
lightdata [variable] 1702701/4194304 (40.6)
visdata [variable] 108377/2097152 ( 5.2)
entdata [variable] 50928/524288 ( 9.7)
192 textures referenced
=== Total BSP file data space used: 3940178 bytes ===

It is virtually impossible to add any entites without getting 'too many entities' errors somewhere in the map.

r_speeds are very low, except in the generator room, so I shall be adding brush detail to the walls, floors and ceilings of the emptier looking areas.

I have tried alternative to the green texture in the hub area, but I can't find anything that looks as good to me. If you can suggets something better, i'll try it out and post the results up here.

Don't be gentle, I need some fierce constructive criticisim.

Now the bit you've been waiting for the <a href="http://www.btinternet.com/~chromea999/NS/NS_NEXT_BETA3N.zip" target="_blank">link</a> (2.67 MB)

Black_Wolf · May 2002

havent taken a look at the map yet (its just about time to leave for skool) but i will when i get home, but the atats are looking good, my planes scare me =(

Wurmspawn · May 2002

Chrome, i must say, it is a vast improvement. i'm not adept with the technicalites of mapping so i'll keep my comments to the asthetic and conceptual.

The concept of the map is not apparent. Forgive me for forgetting the background story, but i'm fairly sure they'll be a bunch of players who never bother to read it and therefore it might be a good idea to have it related somehow. I get the impression that it is a TSA station of some sorts, otherwise there would not be a projection of the logo of said org by the CC.

Following in line with the concept, which rooms are near which ones and how they are connected also did not seem intuitive. machinery was over here, generator over there, components scattered all over the place.

The halls seemed very wide and open. A lvl5 could romp around anywhere he pleased, even over the banana peel... ~;)
the map seems bright, but i think if the existing hallways were narrowed it may add to a feeling of contrast of the existing shadows merely by their change of proximity.

overall, its a nice change from the previous version. i wish you the best of luck getting into the release. keep up the hard work, you're doing FAR better than the likes of me, just sitting back and commenting. ~:D

ChromeAngel · May 2002

I forgot to add this to my last message. Can everyone who comments please take a copy of the attached minimap and mark the areas corrisponding to their comments.

Thank you.

Greedo · May 2002

Alright, I took a look around, and my first impression was that this version is much, much better than the last version I saw. I see some really good improvements all around. Here are some general comments: I'm still getting the too many entities in the visible packet.I know I found it in more than one spot, but the really puzzling one I've marked in red. There's not a whole lot that I can see in that area, which is just confusing. A suggestion that would very likely help with this is to take out those small, odd, ambient models and put in some kind of brush detail instead. Those floorlights that lead you towards the commander center at the beginning of the map, how are they done? Because if they are done with sprites, change it to an animated texture.

I would really suggest changing the buttons. They aren't too good. One thing I really noticed from that compile data up top was the 0.2% texdata. I think that there are a lot of areas in general which could use some texture variation. I mean, I know you've gona a long way to get rid of the "okay, now which branch am I in again" feeling, but you could still go a bit further.

Most of the hive routes are very dark, especially the top and right one. I almost had to turn on my flashlight to find my way through these areas. I think some spotlights shining on the floor might help out a lot. Which brings another thing, I can't say I noticed too much real visual contrast in the map. I mean, the lighting isn't bad, it just lacks, well, pizazz. You could really do a lot in this department. Like the vents for instance. They are very bland in lighting quality. And speaking of the vents in general, they are just too big. Considering that they're only really accessible to and going to be used by the level 1, and possibly 3, I would really suggest making them smaller. If you give marines the ability to stand up, then it takes away any real advantage that the aliens might have in there against marines.

Oh, and I'd increase the boudaries for commander mode (max x, min x, etc.) in the info_mapinfo (this the right one?) entity, because as it is now, the sprite is larger than the little minimap box on the CC interface, and the hallways on the extreme sides (bottom and left especially) are obscured.

1. The supports on this elevator need some work. It doesn't feel right for them to just sink into the ground. And you've got planes to spae, so you could make them pipes.

2. This needs to make sound, though I can't really figure out any real purpose to it as it is now.

3. The tentacles (at least 2 of them on this hive don't touch anything. It's a minor detail, but it still bugs me when I see this.

4. Give me a reason to go into this room. Stick a resource node in there or something. Right now, it's just a waste, and only really functions as an extension of the vent systems.

5. I can't hear anything in here. I like that. But the generator needs work. I don't feel any movement associatged with it at all. It seems to make the noise for noe apparent reason at all. The env_shake and the beams are good, but I really think you should add some kind of motion to the generator itself. And I was quite dissapointed to see that you left in that odd ladder structure. It always seemed to bug me. And I keep getting some odd error when I climb it, and I get stuck for a little bit before I can move again. The hive being recessed into the ceiling as it is seems a bit wierd too. Also, there seems to be something interesting going on under the grating, but I can't make it out at all. If you used larger holes in the grating, that might be better.

6. Whatever's in here, it doesn't make any sense. It turned me inside out, and I don't get the purpose of it. If it was supposed to be a camera or something, I'd suggest just taking it out.

7. I'd lower the alpha value on that big beast. Also, I'm kind of iffy on the use of the resource nozzles as a part of the level in that way. I think it looks okay, but, maybe a little work on it.

8. The command center seems far too easily defended. It only has two enterances, and both of them must be entered through doors. And it does seem quite small and cramped of an area in general.

9. Any of these areas would be great for another room, and probably all three would. I felt that each of the hive arms was far too much of a dead end. There wasn't really much leeway in terms of branching or varying routes. You have more than enough room (72.9, 74.3) to add a room or two.

Overall, this is nice. It's shown a lot of improvement, and I think that is great. It is always good to see that. The ambient sounds are great, and I don't think that there's too much work left for you in that area. I can't say I noticed many particle systems, which is a shame, because I really love particle systems. I think that what you have here could give you a shot at inclusion in the release, but you still have some work left to do if you want a good shot, though I think there's enough time still that you could do something about it. I would like to see as many maps as possible go with version 1, and I certainly would like to see ns_next be one of them. <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

ChromeAngel · May 2002

Thanks Greedo. The floorlight leading to the command center are animated textures. I scapped the sprites a while back.

I had some very nice particle systems SFX planned but the 'too many entities' killed them off. I only have the one particle system left sadly.

The minimap thing might just be a NSTR issue, I'll ask the dev team to try it on a more recent build.

The lower right area might end up being a marine dropship if only I can find the inspiration/textures. I don't want he marines cramped into that little spawn area at the game start if I can give them some eye candy.

Number six fires trigger_cameras, same as in the last build. These are broken in NSTR2. I don't know if Flayra plans on fixing them before releasing NS, but I know it's low priority.

I considered putting a node in area 4, but there was already one near that hive (at the hub) and I didn't want to give the aliens the advantage. I agree you need a reason to go in that room though.

(mainly to other playtestes)
If I built rooms in the area 9's would you go there? or would it end up like area 4 ?

HanzGruber · May 2002

Please note: It's 11<img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>8pm....I have to get up in 6 hours... I'm gonna read the other posts...but not just now...I wanted to post my thoughts....so if I repeat ...please forgive..

Chrome, overall, you should be incredibly proud. It's a great map. And I'm not just trying to give you an ego boost, it seriously is very well constructed ... I was literally amazed at how low the r_speeds were... Just being in one of the hives with that big pulsating mother of all aliens made me get shivers down my spine - well done...

You also asked for constructive criticism... so I've taken a few screenshots and I'll comment on them now...the screenshot compilation is attached at the bottom..

(A)/(A)2 : These two shots are purely a cosmetic thing - perhaps effects gameplay but some may disagree. The texture you are using quite extensively (seen much clearer in (A)2) for the walls has always struck me as being a door... I know the creative license mappers are given and how textures are what we make them, but I must confess I found myself running into walls quite a few times whilst exploring your map. Particularly at locations where you have used it right next to the real door.

(B) : I couldn't help but laugh a little when I saw these buttons... reminds me of doom/wolf3d when we all had giant hands for pressing wallsized buttons. That may be exaggerating but the sheer scale of the texture and the brush really does detract from the atmosphere. You've got a much nicer texture on the elevators, maybe something similar to that? or maybe make the brush smaller and scale the texture down a little?

© : This may just be my monitor and my set up - but I found it incredibly hard to see for a great deal of the map. This would be great for the aliens but death for the happless marines. Just to be able to see (without washing out the colour) I had to put my gamma waaaaay up. I'd be interested to know how other people found it. If it is a general viewpoint it would be easy enough to bump up the values in the rad file...

(D) : Is that green a half-life texture? I had hl/opforce flashbacks when I saw it...

(E) : Another cosmetic thing - my eye catches the little details <img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> . You have a levetating piece of rubish

(F) : This alien acid eaten grate with drips is nice but what could make it better might be the inclusion of a vent opening or something to justify it's existance. Vent doesn't have to go anywhere - just so it looks like it does.

(F)2 : I thought it was a bit weird to be able to wall climb onto air. you might want to add a clip brush or something so little wall climbing critters don't levitate.

I hope that was constructive... overall, it's damm nice chrome.... I said earlier that I want to have Ken's baby...but with this sexy map...not so sure anymore *raises eyebrows... grins*

ChromeAngel · May 2002

NS forums keep me up late too HG.

A . I'm going to try and blend that texture in better, or entirely replace it where it's used now.

B . Wanna do me some nice button textures in the LCARS style, that's what I was aiming for, looks like I missed.

C . Sorry if it's too dark for you. I adjusted my monitor settings according to Flayra's instructions for playtesting, now everything looks bright and washed out to me. I may be over-compensating with the darkness in some places.

D . I have tried alternative to the green texture in the hub area, but I can't find anything that looks as good to me. If you can suggest something better, i'll try it out and post the results up here.

E . Levitiaiting HL rubbish. That's standard HL rubbish, nothing I can do about that. Can you modify HL models?

F . I'll re-visit that area, so it's no too obvious.

Thanks for the pointers.

Killtoy · May 2002

Well, after running around the map, all I have are a couple general comments.

Hanz and Greedo have made some good points. I second the thought that the door texture as a wall didn't work for me.

Several times in the map I found myself wondering, "Have a been here? Did I just run in a circle?"

Overall, I thought it was difficult for me to tell where I was by my surroundings. To me, this is a very significant design element in a map. I like maps that have a look and feel to each place so that players have clear references for eachother when lost or needing help.

I'd also like to see a little more verticle component to the map. I can't recall many specific rooms, and it seemed that most of the map was just corridors. I think it would help if you have some areas with a really high ceiling or a chasm-like floor with catwalks traversing. A "feature" area would be nice also. Just some eyecandy with a room built around it to create a dramatic effect.

I think you've got a good start, but I think there is a lot of room for more improvement. Keep at it!

Right_Behind_You · May 2002

there is something REALLY wrong with the doors... they are opening and closing really fast for no reason

Mecha · May 2002

Overall I would say it is rather good, however there are a few things I really hated. One was the blue light textures built into the walls along some of the corridors, the brushes were cut at angles and the light texture just butted straight into the wall. Another problem was the green HL texture [elevator texture if I remember correctly]. I also disliked those ladders that go up the middle of those miniature shafts, it is actually surprisingly annoying trying to jump of one of those onto the upper floor, and on the other one it seemingly goes nowhere. The last thing is those light near one of the hives, the lighting flickers on and off while the light itself remains bright. I'm sorry if you can't figure out what I'm talking about, but I'm at school at the moment and I can't wander around the map and mark the problem areas on the minimap.

JasonBostwick · May 2002

I ran around in the map for a few minutes (well, more like a half hour)and I must say, great work. The main problem I found was that many of the areas were very much alike, and I couldn't tell them apart. The two areas with the ladders and the areas branching to the hives from the centre all seemed identicle and I got lost. Just add some way of telling them apart, like a very noticeable sign, some different coloured lighting, some piece of machinery, something.

BTW, I was just wondering if the textures included in your .wad are available for public use. They're great, and a few of them would make a great addition to my map.

Moleculor · May 2002

When walking into the 3 section, the wall with the square cutout with the diamond in it has a texture alignment problem (the grey wall.. it's the vertical lines).

The other side of the central 'pillar' in section two has a similar but not as harsh alignment problem.

I didn't run around looking for other alignment problems. There might be some there though.

Not all the buttons stick out the same distance.

The 'red' buttons that are 'locked' need to be more red than maroon and need to give an error sound when 'pushed'.

There are many rooms (most notably in the areas accessed by pushing buttons) that have completely black floors with not a speck of light to be seen. This is not good. It also makes it hard to notice that there is a room in that direction, when you pass the doorway. Try to position the lights in such a way that they are at least partially visible from outside the doorway in the corridor as you pass by.

In general, the level (as has been said before) doesn't have enough lights in the dark areas (you should still keep the dark areas, just put a spot or two in them with high cutoff/fade/whatever rates). Try compiling in circus mode (-circus) to see areas with a GREAT deal of blackness. Realize that these will be rooms that will probably have turrets in them, and you shouldn't have to die a few times to figure out where they are.

That pillar with a ladder on it still bothers me. There's no indication of where the sound of the boots on metal (or claws) is coming from (since it's a complete solid piece). Perhaps either place two or three individual ladders on a few faces, or make that place have a grav-lift effect of some sort.

The angles don't seem to be consistant throughout the map. Most notably the side walls that have that angled in look.

A few of the angles look less... angular (softer... more curvacious) than others. For some reason, angles in this map just don't look right, or are over used or something. Try reducing the angle a bit, or possibly increasing the angle at which it uses that Concave lighting smoother or something. Or add in a third, vertical section where the angle is to make it something like:

\
.|
/

Rather than:

\
/

Set your gamma higher. It's presently at 1.0.

Is it possible to get that dripping water to make noise?

There is a single piece of floating debris outside the 2 section.

Place small crossbars across the hole where dripping water is coming from. It looks like you should be able to climb inside, but at present you can't. It also looks like a TOTALLY useless empty space up there (as in: "Why in hell would anyone ever make a base with a weird open space up there like that?"). The bars should block viewing in such a way that you can't quite tell what all is up there.

There's only a single entity packet list problem I came across, and that was in the vent system. But I haven't explored the whole map yet.

Could you possibly put signs directing people to where the other numbered sections are on the central pillar of the central section?

Ya need to highlight (again with lights) the doors that open.

The sharp right angled corners (most notably the ones in the central green area) do not look 'cool' at all. Curve them perhaps? Or place pillars on them (like in that Valve-ERC 51 <a href="http://www.valve-erc.com/resources/?page=hltips" target="_blank">tip ection</a>) and then stick monitors on those pillars?

The green section needs more color. This could be solved with the pillar idea from above.

The node that has a pipe-like thing over it will need more headroom.

The level is too silent. There needs to be an ambient audiable in every room/section/hallway.

That's about all I can think of. This is a vast improvement over your other maps.

ChromeAngel · May 2002

Right_Behind_You : I can't replicate your problem here.

Mecha : I follow what you're saying.

BoZmAn20 : NS_NEXT has a learning curve, recognising the features that identifying the various branches is part of that curve, they are there if you look for them. You can use the textures in my WAD, just give me credit for them.

Moleculor : Lighting seems to be your main issue. Having darkened down my settings from those prescribed I can see what you mean. Gamma should be set to 1.4 when you start the level, load it up and watch closely.

Can anyone else duplicate Right_Behind_You's problem.

Moleculor · May 2002

Running around even with a 1.6 or a 2.0 doesn't fix the darkness. There needs to be actual sources of light in those pitch black rooms.

There was even one room that was -totally- dark. As in 100% dark on all floors walls and the ceiling. You NEED sources of light.

ChromeAngel · May 2002

Thanks Moleculor i've started my revisions to the lighting. And fixed the mis-alignments.

I've removed most occurances of the texture people thought was a door. The generator room hive has been revised so you shouldn't have any more ladder problems.

Finalised layout

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