Saudi Arabia
reasa
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 8010Members, Constellation
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">Freind or Foe?</div> Well the more I hear about them the more I begin to mistrust them. As you know almost all of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. I hear things of their royal family funneling money to terrorist groups.
They say they are Americas freind but im begining to doubt that. Also on the topic of Bushs plan to "bring democracy to the middle east" after Iraq (which you know we are going to attack sooner or later)
what country is next I know we are not going to stop as long as Bush is president, perhaps Iran.
What are your thoughts?
They say they are Americas freind but im begining to doubt that. Also on the topic of Bushs plan to "bring democracy to the middle east" after Iraq (which you know we are going to attack sooner or later)
what country is next I know we are not going to stop as long as Bush is president, perhaps Iran.
What are your thoughts?
Comments
It's all about their economic policies.
And a large motivation for the Saudis to fuel anti-American fundamentalism is to create some smoke and mirrors so that their own people are distracted from how much they're being screwed domestically.
Saudi Arabia contains not one, but two of the holiest of cities in Islam, Mecca and Medina. If this area were to fall under attack from non- muslims, this would give binLaded and his followers MANY more supporters. This outlined his entire fatwah (call to jihad) issued in the 90's (when the UN occupied the Arabian pinnensula, even though we stayed clear of those areas). For militant Islamists, the thought of an infidel nation holding control over religious sites is the worst insult to their religion.
Moveing on, what are your thoughts on Iran?
"I don?t think its necessary for us to help the US with something that was their own fault."
My father said when he saw the 9/11 thing on TV that "US were asking for a fight now they get it." - I am not saying that it was nice to crush 2 office buildings full of innocent people. I just want to say US government asked for that. Many people get angry with US so that I can somehow understand their motivations. Here in Germany people are much more sensitive withthis things and have a less arrogant attitude towards foreign people. In the US there are 250 million people with 1 government that tells them that they are the best and anyone that is not bootlicking is their enemy - reminds me of nazi germany a bit. In europe people have more sources of information and see things more clearly than it appears in the US. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for the wonderfully constructive post. Your lack of nationalism and egotism is certainly exemplary.
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I 'm sorry to directly attack you, but I find this post fairly offensive. Saying that we can forget a portion of the world that not only has been the cradel of both human civilization and three major religions but also contians over 246,000,000 people. Despite what you might like to think, that the United States is part of the rest of the world and as such we should always pay attention to rest of it. Besides we your opinion of why we pay attention to the region, on the economic side of things, is over-simplified. The US actualy can produce much of the oil it needs, and while yes we do get a lot from the middle east, it is far being the only place we import oil from. Futhermore the Middle East has many natural resources beyond oil. Many metals and minerals, which we do not have within our territories is mined in the Middle East, such as chromium whcih I belive (I'm remembering a fact here nto actualy looking it up so take this with a grain of salt) almost all of which is mined in Turkey, and Syria. As I pointed out before, its that attitue of "it only matters as long as it can supply America with something" is one of the reasons that people in other parts of the world really don't like us. Humility and Respect is something we as a nation really need to learn.
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I 'm sorry to directly attack you, but I find this post fairly offensive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't want to speak for him, but I think he meant it in terms of economic dependence. It would allow the government to have a more neutral view on the region's issues since the economy wouldn't be at risk.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but I think he meant it in terms of economic dependence. It would allow the government to have a more neutral view on the region's issues since the economy wouldn't be at risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, thats just what I ment sorry if it came across the wrong way.
In europe people have more sources of information and see things more clearly than it appears in the US. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, were all cartoon watching morons....our media tells us just what we want to hear and most of don't watch the news anyway. *sarcasim*
Im not sure what you mean by more clearly, do you have better glasses? Cleaner windows perhaps?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->but I think he meant it in terms of economic dependence. It would allow the government to have a more neutral view on the region's issues since the economy wouldn't be at risk.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, thats just what I ment sorry if it came across the wrong way. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If thats what was ment, then while I do not retract the points I made, I would find that less offensive than my interpretation, which was tinted by your previous staments in this thread, "countries like Saudi Arabia won't mean **** to the world anymore. " for example. In any event I would like to restate my final remark which is that as a nation we could benefit by learning some humility and respect (I mean Americans although there are few countries I would exempt, definatly not Germany....which reminds me ....pay attention to this miezekatze, it applies directly to what you said, which while some of your points were okay,(I agree, for example, that the media in the US does provide a biased veiw of the news, but I would hesitate to say that European news (which I do follow as much as my somewhat lacking launguage skills (I only speak english, spainish and some russian)) is all that much better) but the way in which you said them completly shuts down many good, rational people's minds to listening to what good there may have been in it. It is true that the US has for many years behaved in a way that opens itself up to hatred from people in more ecnomicaly disadvataged areas (poverty and hopelessness is always the driving factors behind and resurgance of extermism (need an example closer to your home? Nazis only gained the support they did because of the economic ruin Geramny was left in after the World War 1 and by the provisions of the Versailles Treaty, which Hitler was very good at explioting)) But that does not in any way mean that we were "asking for 9/11". There is no excuse for killing thousands of inocent people, nor should America or it's government be held in any way acountable for the fact that some people are willing to. And by saying that we were "asking for" it is a form of excusing that action. While 9/11 was no where near the scale of the Holocaust and I don't want to be flamed for compairing the two, I would think someone from Germany might be a little more careful about excusing mass killings.........
"I don´t think its necessary for us to help the US with something that was their own fault."
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So precisely, why does this make him right? You're presenting his <i>opinion</i> as fact-- you simply believe his statement because you saw it on one of <i>your</i> news programs? This makes his words completely and infallibly correct?
Interesting-- because a guy on your tv show said that 9/11 is entirely America's fault, it must be so. But yeah, you're right:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You just watch your CNN news and think that you know everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure. It seems to me that <i>you</i> believe everything <i>your</i> media reports about America. Everything is our fault, right?
Well, let's continue: By his logic, then-- I guess that Britain should have been held responsible for removing Saddam from Kuwait (not <i>solely</i> responsible, since many nations and events helped build that monster, but they laid a <i>terrible</i> international framework in the area), and they should also be morally responsible for protecting the Kurds-- after all, it was Britain that drew up the nation's boundaries based on their own interests, annexing Mosul (homeland of the Kurds) into Iraq because of its oil reserves, even though the Kurds were quite keen on self-determination and historically did not get along with their new countrymates. <b>Whoops!</b>
Now, since you took a brave stand and asserted that 9/11 was '<i>not nice</i>', I can only assume that you would characterize their resulting slaughter as '<i>really mean</i>'. But, since none of this was mentioned, then it's all neither here nor there. <i>Everything</i> that's taking place in the Middle East today remains America's fault, and Mr. Soundbite's naive and short-sighted worldview still stands as truth.
(note: I am aware that many Kurds were murdered with American munitions and a convenient blind eye. I am <b>not</b> trying to absolve America of guilt-- I just want to make sure that the blame is spread appropriately)
Remember, the tricky thing with the news is that not only can they promote propeganda with what they tell you, they can also do it with what they cheerfully omit.
Sure, Eurpoean media is probably spot-on in its criticism of the US . . . but does that mean that it brings the same intense, unflinching scrutiny to bear domestically? Or, perhaps, does the US make a terrific fault-sponge? Look, I agree that our current government is arrogant, aggressive, and completely out of line. And I can see how with some smoke and mirrors, it's quite easy to make it look like they're completely responsible for everything that's wrong in the world today.
When the china shop collapses, just focus your news on the loud, colorful bull-- and divert people away from the fact that the place was built with balsa wood, duct tape, and arbitrary blueprints, simply because it enabled the bickering contractors to reap larger profits.
I've made this point several times: Europe can't simply wash its hands of its post WWI meddling (understatement of the century) in the Middle East, and call 'no harm, no foul' just because they pulled out. It was European greed that initially created the Frankenstein's monster that America is now attempting to control for its own interests--so, to try to say that the events of 9-11 were engineered solely in an American vacuum completely ignores decades of Middle Eastern experience.
And if anyone skims this and thinks that I'm defending 'arrogant american imperialism', you need to read it again.
Yep. No doubt there, we're cocky, arrogant, and we've got the military/technology to back it up. America did not get to the top of the SuperPower list by being reserved and keeping to themselves, however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Typical example of arrogant imperialist american. You just watch your CNN news and think that you know everything. And yeah just because osama is arabic you treat all saudis like terrorists. For the 9/11 thing I saw once on TV a british citizen (from india) answering the question wheter its ok that the brits join the US in the war against evil ara...I mean terrorists. He just said the following:
"I don´t think its necessary for us to help the US with something that was their own fault."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No matter how <i>nice</i>, no matter how <i>kind</i>, no matter how <i>generous</i> America is; we will always have enemies. Being the best, strongest, most influencial (choose your poison) brings about jealousy. Jealousy brings hatred, and hatred brings conflict.
I am positive that we Americans did not ask for the attacks on 9/11. Perhaps we could have prevented them if things had gone differently or maybe lessened the consequences, but we sure as HELL did not invite these guys into our country, tell them what flight to hop on and take over, and destroy two of the most identifiable monuments in the world, 3000+ civilians, and a large portion of our military headquarters at the Pentagon.
I'd like to meet the man who said that face to face, he'd have no teeth and at least a busted nose. That's like saying America asked to be attacked at Pearl Harbor in 1941; I'm sure a lot of vets would beat anyone's face in who said something of <i>that</i> nature. It's atrocious what some people say...
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<b>Euoplocephalus</b>: (not to knock you) Your posts hurt my eyes, they're like one very large continuous sentence. Could you bust them up into paragraphs or something smaller? It would make it much easier to read, for everyone I might imagine. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.natural-selection.org/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
Sarcasm? What's that?
BathroomMonkey at least someone around here (you!) is making a little sense. I think most people argue for the sake of argument, not for the sake of proving a point.
Downplaying something of that magnitude...uggh. Why don't we just get it over with call it <i>not fair</i> and whine home to momma? Oh wait, we're not <b>FRENCH</b>.
Ach.......your right.....sorry. They are very hard to read. I must pay more attention to the formating in the future. Thank you for bringing that up. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif'><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Humility and Respect is something we as a nation really need to learn. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yep. No doubt there, we're cocky, arrogant, and we've got the military/technology to back it up. America did not get to the top of the SuperPower list by being reserved and keeping to themselves, however.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't mean that we should keep to ourselves, in fact I feel that any country that has the means to, has an obilgation to play an active role in the rest of the world. I merely hoped to point out that they way in which Americans sometimes act can lead to other people really finding us offensive.
Miezekatze is a good example of this. While I think some of his ideas are wrong, we shouldn't dicount him just because he says something anti-american. He should have been much more humble and sensitive in his argument, and maybe we woudn't wouldn't have reacted so violently against him. I like America, I feel we are one of the best countries in the world for a number of reasons, but we do have our problems. And maybe if we listened to what the rest of the world is saying we could better judge what our problems are. Not that we should accept everything someone says, our "governemnt asking for it" for example, but they do sometimes have good arguments hidden in the them. A good example is: "They just get said that they are the land of the free and the just and anyone that think different get degraded to lesser people." is pretty much the point I tried to make above, but said in a more inflamitory way.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->the very evil US *government* declaring all serbians the evil agressors and anyone else was a peaceful sheep <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I hesitate to go into this as I was fairly young at the time, fourth or fifth grade when US involvment was at it's peak. But if I remember correctly, we never protrayed Serbians as the sole agressors. In fact I remember being confused because part way into the conflict the Serbs went from being seen in our media as innocent victims to another fighting force.
Furthermore, if I remember correctly the Serbs were the ones who commited most of the "ethnic cleansing". Thats not saying that all Serbs are bad evil people, or that they condoned what some Serbs did. I know a lot of Serbs who are here in the US, and I would not dream of insiuating that you as a group are in anyway responsible for what happened. But there were reasons the US chose to go against the Serbians, it wasn't just "lets pick on the Serbs".
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And for the news - in europe there are many different views. many countries close together with different views - US 250 million people under 1 government. see what I mean.
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No I don't. One of the good things about America is that it is a very diverse place. Just because we are under one goverment doesn't mean we only get one side of the story. In fact the goverment has very little to do with our media. It legaly can't, for the most part, directly influence what is printed. The size of our government therefore has no effect on how many sides of the story we see. I could, with almost no effort give you several diffrent points of veiw all produced within the US.
Hope that was somwhat easyier to read <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif'><!--endemo-->